Scheduled platforms Birmingham New Street

[math1985]

The schedule of Birmingham New Street is pretty regular: nearly all trains run every hour at the same time. Still, there is a lot of variation in the scheduled platforms. For example, the Cross Country train to Manchester Piccadilly leaving at xx57 is scheduled from platforms 3B, 4B, 6B, 6M, 7A, 7B, and 10B, as can be seen here. Does anyone know what is the reason for this variation? I would imagine that if you can create a 60 minute long platform schedule that works during rush hour, the same 60 minute long schedule would also work at other times of the day.

 

[YorkshireBear]

The schedule of Birmingham New Street is pretty regular: nearly all trains run every hour at the same time. Still, there is a lot of variation in the scheduled platforms. For example, the Cross Country train to Manchester Piccadilly leaving at xx57 is scheduled from platforms 3B, 4B, 6B, 6M, 7A, 7B, and 10B, as can be seen here. Does anyone know what is the reason for this variation? I would imagine that if you can create a 60 minute long platform schedule that works during rush hour, the same 60 minute long schedule would also work at other times of the day.

That presumes that all trains run on time, at places like Birmingham New Street even a minute can make a difference and the platforms need changing.

Good idea in theory. But in practice impossible to stick to so no point trying otherwise people would complain that it wasn't the usual platform.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Taunton]

Surprising then that in Continental Europe they can manage exactly this every hour, at places notably busier than Birmingham, with trains that have run much further.

 

[The Planner]

I have no doubt the people that do the job full time would bite your hand off if you could find a solution to it!

 

[SephenWorceste]

The only predictable thing about the platforms at New Street is that they are an inconvience to passengers and probably train companies. Difficult to access, dark and crowded.

I wonder if the problems are worse because it is the terminating station for many services but has predominately through tracks. Trains wait to make up a new service blocking the way for other trains. Other trains then have to be given another platform where they can depart through the other side of the station. The A and B platforms cannot help either.

Often last minute platform changes too. You can be waiting at one platform and have less than five minutes to dash to another. Not easy at New Street particularly for the less mobile or those with luggage.

I believe part of the redesign is to keep passengers at concourse level for longer. They are removing the platform waiting rooms and areas. The last minute dash down from the concourse will be fun.

Best wishes, Stephen.

 

[Trog]

Surprising then that in Continental Europe they can manage exactly this every hour, at places notably busier than Birmingham, with trains that have run much further.

Also busy and complicated are not quite the same thing.

You can run a lot more trains but with less effort through a station with no conflicting moves. New Street is virtually the national cross roads. with trains to and from everywhere. Add the problems that imports, to a layout where different routes cross each other, with trains that run at different frequencies and you can forget simple platform rotas.

 

[The Planner]

The massive idiosyncrasy about New St is the only thing that allows it to work, that there are no overlaps to the signals.

 

[306024]

............. I would imagine that if you can create a 60 minute long platform schedule that works during rush hour, the same 60 minute long schedule would also work at other times of the day.

Not that simple I'm afraid. Ideally you work out the best off peak pattern first, as that should be easier to replicate each hour. What tends to drive platform allocation at busy stations is maximising the number of parallel moves across the station throat, thereby maximising track capacity. Birmingham New St of course is particularly difficult with a throat at each end. At peak times it is a case of squeezing everything in as best as possible.

A generalisation I know but European railways tend to have more grade separated junctions than us, so with less conflicting moves a more recognisable platform pattern is usually possible.

 

[SephenWorceste]

The massive idiosyncrasy about New St is the only thing that allows it to work, that there are no overlaps to the signals.

Please could you explain this. I would be interested. I understand (from Google) there is usually a clear (of trains) area beyond a signal to provided am extra stopping distance.

Thanks, Stephen.

 

[edwin_m]

Overlaps mean that if a train is signalled into a through platform like New Street some of the pointwork at the far end is "locked" by a timer which is intended to ensure that the train has stopped at the signal or at least slowed right down before the overlap is released. Overlaps would therefore make arrivals/departure impossible in many cases where another train is arriving in the far end of the adjacent platform.

 

[Tomnick]

Going even further than that - is it possible for trains to arrive at the same platform from opposite directions at the same time, separated by the overlap-less mid-platform signals?

 

[The Planner]

No, you can't do that, you have to leave a gap.

 

[Tomnick]

No, you can't do that, you have to leave a gap.

Ta, seemed unlikely but wasn't sure whether the 10mph limit made it acceptable.

 

[The Planner]

Going to be interesting when it gets resignalled, moving from the NX panels to VDU and trackerball.

 

[Philip C]

The last time I used New Street I was treated to a Voyager sat on one of the non-platform roads with its engines running throughout my half-hour connection. This made announcements almost impossible to hear and the diesel fumes were very unpleasant. I departed with numb ears and a sore throat.

Is this what is known as "the Cross-Country Hot Spare" or was I just unlucky? If this is, indeed, intended does anyone know of any plans to alleviate this public nuisance?

 

[SephenWorceste]

A very useful site for a novice like me.

http://www.railway-technical.com/sigtxt1.shtml

Best wishes, Stephen.

 

[dooton]

The last time I used New Street I was treated to a Voyager sat on one of the non-platform roads with its engines running throughout my half-hour connection. This made announcements almost impossible to hear and the diesel fumes were very unpleasant. I departed with numb ears and a sore throat.

Is this what is known as "the Cross-Country Hot Spare" or was I just unlucky? If this is, indeed, intended does anyone know of any plans to alleviate this public nuisance?

It's not louder than any of many other Voyagers using the Station! - Would you prefer not to have a hot spare and have train cancelled when there are faults?

Also I remember seeing something that said the warranty would be void on them if the engine is left switched off for more than 12hrs. Not sure on the truth of that one, but I read it on here?

 

[dvboy]

The schedule of Birmingham New Street is pretty regular: nearly all trains run every hour at the same time. Still, there is a lot of variation in the scheduled platforms. For example, the Cross Country train to Manchester Piccadilly leaving at xx57 is scheduled from platforms 3B, 4B, 6B, 6M, 7A, 7B, and 10B, as can be seen here. Does anyone know what is the reason for this variation? I would imagine that if you can create a 60 minute long platform schedule that works during rush hour, the same 60 minute long schedule would also work at other times of the day.

The 1857 is scheduled for 5B but is almost always platform changed to 8B! I've also seen Manchester trains go from 12B.

6M isn't a platform, it's sort of half-way between 6A and 6B and is announced as 6B. I believe an earlier train departs in front from 6B sometimes.

 

[math1985]

That presumes that all trains run on time, at places like Birmingham New Street even a minute can make a difference and the platforms need changing.

Of course delays require platforms changes. But the strange thing is that even the planned schedule, which does not take delays into account, has different platform allocations for different hours. So delays cannot be the only reason.

New Street is virtually the national cross roads. with trains to and from everywhere. Add the problems that imports, to a layout where different routes cross each other, with trains that run at different frequencies and you can forget simple platform rotas.

I don't quite see that. I understand that the schedule at New Street is quite complex, so I can imagine it's not easy to create a platform schedule. But I don't see why that prevents a platform schedule that is the same every hour. Different frequencies should not be a problem either, because all train series passing through New Street have a frequency of 60 minutes or a fraction of that. I know there must be some reason that it's done like it is, but I still don't really see that reason.

Let's look at an example. The Cross City Line towards Four Oaks/Lichfield leaves nearly always from platform 8A. However, train 2N42 from 10:55 leaves from platform 9M. I see that platform 8A is being used by the 11:03 Plymouth-Edinburgh service (1S41) at that time. However, I don't understand why they move the Cross City Line to platform 9M instead of the Plymouth-Edinburgh service (1Sxx), especially because the 1Sxx does leave from platform 9A at other hours (for example 1S47 leaving at 14:03). There seem to be no other trains at platform 8 or 9 around that time, so I'm not sure what is the reasoning behind this.

 

[Tomnick]

I've not really looked into it, but if you allocated platforms for a 'standard' off-peak hour (if there is such a thing at New St), you could well get to the end of the hour and find that simply repeating the allocations for the start of the next hour wouldn't work, or would lead to inefficient use of platforms...so you end up with a different set of allocations in the next hour, and so on.

The Planner: given how much longer it takes to set a route (both in terms of the signalman's actions and the response of the equipment) with the more recent systems, I don't know whether it'd be able to keep up with the demands on the current layout!

 

[math1985]

I've not really looked into it, but if you allocated platforms for a 'standard' off-peak hour (if there is such a thing at New St), you could well get to the end of the hour and find that simply repeating the allocations for the start of the next hour wouldn't work, or would lead to inefficient use of platforms...

Hmm, why wouldn't it work?

 

[edwin_m]

Hmm, why wouldn't it work?

Take a simple example where two platforms are provided for trains on a particular route where the interval between trains is too short for them all to use the same platform. Trains could therefore be scheduled to use the two platforms alternately. However if there is an odd number of trains per hour then the corresponding trains an hour later will be in the other platform.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Hmm, why wouldn't it work?

Some trains change by the odd minute each hour too. And you have ECS's at different hours and also maybe trains that are not in an hourly pattern (two hourly services maybe?).

 

[The Planner]

ECS and joining and splitting moves, double voyagers, double 323s, double 350s all make subtle differences. xM is a planning platform for the reason suggested, it is possible to sometimes put 3 in a platform.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

Would it really benefit passengers if every hourly train was on the same platform? It just strikes me of some kind of OCD thing that is needed for no reason other than it looks neat and tidy in somebody's head. I use New Street all the time. Yes, I've noticed there are certain platforms the trains I catch regularly tend to be on more often than not but I will still check what is posted on the concourse before I go downstairs to the platform. There are screens everywhere at New Street, for all it's faults you can't complain about a lack of information being made available.

 

[306024]

Neat and tidy is good , and of course it isn't for the passengers benefit, it is for the staff

But basically the simpler the plan the easier it is for everyone to understand.

 

[dvboy]

There is also a platform out of use at the moment (7 I think), some platform allocations have changed as the platforms have been refurbished to avoid overcrowding on those that are currently narrow, for example they'll try to avoid trains at 4B, 4C and 5B at the same time (but it doesn't always work) because they all share one set of escalators.

Also there are some deliberate platform changes, for example, a train might be announced at platform 9B, but later changed to 9A once a train has departed there, in order that there aren't two trains' worth of people crowding platform 9A, the platform change then clears 9B for a train coming in shortly after the one at 9A. It's clever crowd management.
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Would it really benefit passengers if every hourly train was on the same platform? It just strikes me of some kind of OCD thing that is needed for no reason other than it looks neat and tidy in somebody's head. I use New Street all the time. Yes, I've noticed there are certain platforms the trains I catch regularly tend to be on more often than not but I will still check what is posted on the concourse before I go downstairs to the platform. There are screens everywhere at New Street, for all it's faults you can't complain about a lack of information being made available.

I ALWAYS check my platform on the screens at New Street because it quite often will differ from information online, and as even those trains you expect to always be at the same platform every time can be changed because of disruption elsewhere.