School detentions

[Butts]

No political correctness then, remember it well.
Never had the tawse because I never lived in Scotland but the cane regularly in Grammar school.

Blackboard rubbers could be lethal, It always amazed me how accurate they were when the teacher spun round and flung it usually in the exact spot - my head.

When you think back having a wooden board rubber flung at your head it sounds terrible but it was just how things were, don't ever remember anybody getting hurt. Anyway if you went home and told your dad the cut on your head was from the teachers board rubber you wouldn't get an ounce of sympathy.
In those days teachers had respect from parents and unlike now they wouldn't be getting a solicitor on the case.

Indeed, todays children have it easy
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nope.

Wimps

 

[yorkie]

I've been thinking about my time at school (I only left two years ago, yet it feels a geological time period ago), and definitely one thing that irked me during high school were teachers who'd give an entire class a detention if a few people were messing around....

I found the best way to get out of them was to forget to turn up to the whole class detention, then go and see the teacher apologising that you forgot. If you were one of the sensible ones, they'd simply let you off I can still clearly remember that conversation with my History teacher in Year 7 as if it was yesterday

The trick doesn't work if the whole class detention immediately follows the end of the lesson (e.g. for a lesson just before break time), for obvious reasons.

I'm not a fan of the idea of whole class detentions, nor of wasting such time writing pointless lines and other such nonsense, but if several members of a class are messing about, then if it's possible to extend the lesson by a few minutes to get the work done, then why not?

When I was at school I was subjected to corporal punishment.

I don't agree with that. Did that apply to smoking too? If so, you would no doubt have a lot of experience of such punishments!

At my school (in year 9) its after school only:

1 hour for no planner signed
1 hour for lack of equipment

That seems a bit harsh. 20 mins at lunchtime is about the norm here! Same punishment for swearing, which I'd argue is too lenient.

Cultural differences play a big part, of course.....

I think in 'Western' cultures some of our kids are too spoilt, for example it's not uncommon for kids to be given a very expensive smartphone as young as 13 (yes really! here is an example), and get loads of gadgets handed to them without having to earn anything. That doesn't necessarily cause a problem in all cases, but it sure does in some. It can cause laziness and an over-expectation of entitlement.

And at the opposite end of the spectrum, there are some kids whose parents don't care at all, and this can result in their kids also not caring either. Some may also misbehave to get attention, perhaps because their parents don't give them positive attention and they think the only way to get attention is to misbehave.

 

[Butts]

It would depend on the severity of the caning, the length of the detention and who would witness it.

6 of the best in front of the whole class - 1 week detention no contest.

NB "Arse Caning" was preferable to hand variety
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't agree with that. Did that apply to smoking too? If so, you would no doubt have a lot of experience of such punishments!

Miaow..... I'm supposed to be the catty one.

Actually believe it or not I didn't start smoking until I was 19 and in the RN - Blue Liners 19p packet (floor sweepings a bit like Mayfair are today)

My punishments were for everything but smoking

 

[swj99]

I always thought it was a cop out on the teacher's part. If they couldn't be bothered to find out who had done whatever it was, I couldn't be bothered to go to their detention. I actually didn't go to any whilst at school, and they never did anything about it. I guess they didn't have any means to enforce it. I think the teachers who gave detentions to whole classes were the ones who got the least respect, and tended to be thought of as fools.

The only time I'm aware of anything approaching peer group pressure resulting in someone owning up was when the boys toilets in one of the school buildings was vandalised. Someone broke all the porcelain sinks, and smashed the light switches. The guy who was initially assumed to have done it was a bit mad, but it wasn't him, and at the point where he was told he was to be suspended, he put the word around that the person who'd done it (he knew who it was but wasn't a grass) had better own up or he'd get his head kicked in.

On a slightly different subject, I, along with about 4 other people were given 200 lines one day in a lesson. I used a piece of carbon paper so I only did half the amount. The teacher was so thick that when I handed it in, she didn't notice.

One thing I was aware of at school was that there were many kids there who didn't want to be. They messed around and disrupted lessons for the people who did want to learn, which I reckon was unfair. I think schools should make provision for this so they ones who want to be there and learn, aren't disrupted by those who don't. I remember some maths lessons when the teacher spent more of his time trying to deal with unruly pupils than he spent actually teaching.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

20 minute lunch time detentions? Kids don't know they're born these days. I had two hour detentions on Saturdays!

 

[yorkie]

One thing I was aware of at school was that there were many kids there who didn't want to be. They messed around and disrupted lessons for the people who did want to learn, which I reckon was unfair. I think schools should make provision for this so they ones who want to be there and learn, aren't disrupted by those who don't. I remember some maths lessons when the teacher spent more of his time trying to deal with unruly pupils than he spent actually teaching.

Agreed, far more should be done about this, but what can schools do?

I remember at the start of Year 10, having chosen Art GCSE, I discovered various people were actually in my yeargroup who I didn't even know who they were, and were so immature I had assumed they were in a younger year. All they wanted to do was mess about, and they thought Art was a doss about. In that lesson, there was a combination of some of the brightest, most sensible pupils in the school, and some of the most immature and disruptive. Mind you, it was the only lesson where we were allowed to listen to music. Certain tracks remind me of those lessons....

20 minute lunch time detentions? Kids don't know they're born these days. I had two hour detentions on Saturdays!

Failure to attend an initial detention results in a 1 hour Deputy Head's detention. Failure to turn up at that is a day in what could be described as a room fool of 'election booths'. Problem is, some kids actually don't mind that!

Moving on to more positive things, did anyone's school allow them to play games (e.g. Command & Conquer/Red Alert, Doom/Quake, that sort of thing) over the LAN at lunchtimes/after school? Happy days

 

[Bevan Price]

6 of the best in front of the whole class - 1 week detention no contest.

NB "Arse Caning" was preferable to hand variety
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Kids have it easy compared with olden days. The following is a summary from a History of North Meols and Southport by Peter Aughton.

(Refers to 1890s)

"Discipline was very strict and the cane was the normal punishment for any offence. For really serious offences, the offender was sent to the headmaster or headmistress. If the guilt was proven, the culprit was taken to the cloakroom, and the punishment was applied to the posterior - bare or covered, according to the severity of the offence.

The instrument for punishment was a length of sugar cane about 5/8 inch thick and 30 inches long. The effect of the cane striking the cushioned palm of the hand was nothing compared with the excruciating pain of a direct hit on the tips of the fingers.

When a pupil was due for punishment and the cane was worn out or split, he would be given a penny and sent to Rowbottom's shop to buy the new cane for his punishment."

Sounds cruel by today's standards, but probably prevented a lot of bad behaviour. I was at a grammar school in the 1950s, and very few got sent to the headmaster for 6 on the bum. Written punishments, or the ruler on the hand were preferred, plus very occasional individual or class detentions. Most of the boys avoided doing anything really bad, rather than risk a very sore bum.

 

[bb21]

Collective responsibility sounds good in theory, but in practice at the schools I went to (comprehensives) it ended up being the innocent being punished for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. No-one would justify this for adults (especially not a court), so why is a school any different.

It does not work everywhere. Collective responsibility can be taught in other ways. Whole class detention is not the only way. It is one method that worked in one of the schools I went to because it suited the student profiles, school day structure, etc. Use it in the wrong school and you might as well not bother.

You may think it is unfair. I do not consider it unfair, and never did. Some of the other pupils possibly did, but I can quite categorically say that the majority in my class accepted it as the way things are, and appreciate this experience even more nowadays. Life isn't fair. I was raised with the concept that we do not live as individuals and my actions do not only have consequences for myself, but others too, and it may come back to bite myself on the arse if I show scant regard for others. This is one of the most vivid illustration for this concept played out in real life.

You may not think that the same things happen with adults and in real life - you'd be wrong in my opinion. A few unscrupulous individuals can cause an organisation to be shut down which will cost other innocent employees' jobs, an idiot crossing a live railway line can cause masses of delays to thousands of innocent passengers... We all suffer the consequences of someone else's poor behaviour from time to time.

Education is an art, not an exact science.

Collective responsibility should come with collective reward.

Absolutely. Various incentives were offered at my school. You earn points over fixed periods which can be redeemed against certain "privileges". The same applies to dorms (of variable sizes of between 4 and 12 per room, typically 8).

Regarding students becoming unpopular, it didn't work like that when I was at school. Those causing all the problems were the popular ones, and I think they found the whole idea of a detention quite amusing - it gave them more time to annoy staff and behave like idiots showing off in front of everyone.

It's all about circumstances. Collective punishment may well not work in this case.

My mother refused to sign my planner all through my time at school as she didn't see the point in it. Sometimes she'd put smiley faces instead or deliberately sign the tutor's space or just scribble over random stuff. Perhaps all mothers of those in my class should share a detention

I don't get the point of getting parents to sign planners either.

We don't hate/dislike the misbehaving ones at our school because we do find it really funny cause of what they say/do. Also i go to a normal school.

What is normal?

You probably don't realise the amount of harm these kids do to your own studies.

Anyway if you went home and told your dad the cut on your head was from the teachers board rubber you wouldn't get an ounce of sympathy.
In those days teachers had respect from parents and unlike now they wouldn't be getting a solicitor on the case.

I remember clearly one occasion when I was about 8. I argued with a teacher in class because I used a legitimate method to solve a problem but she insisted that we should all learn her method. Looking back I think she had a very good point. Anyway I complained to dad when I got home, and the result? A very sore bottom, for answering back in class.

I actually didn't go to any whilst at school, and they never did anything about it. I guess they didn't have any means to enforce it.

At my school, if you miss a detention, the time is doubled, and if that means you miss dinner time, you miss dinner. Tariff starts at one hour and detention is normally carried out after 5 o'clock. School canteen is only open between 5.30 and 7.30, so if you have even the shortest double session, you are left with whatever it is that no one wants. Even the most hardened troublemakers soon learn that whatever you do, you do not miss detention.

Of course that only worked partly because we were a boarding school.

 

[maniacmartin]

A few unscrupulous individuals can cause an organisation to be shut down which will cost other innocent employees' jobs, an idiot crossing a live railway line can cause masses of delays to thousands of innocent passengers... We all suffer the consequences of someone else's poor behaviour from time to time.

This is very different from have a policy to deliberately ensure bystanders are imposed a penalty

 

[bb21]

This is very different from have a policy to deliberately ensure bystanders are imposed a penalty

It depends on which angle you look at it from. No two examples can be exactly the same. One cannot wait for a situation to occur naturally and then educate youngsters accordingly. That is not a proactive approach. All imitations of real-life situations have flaws.

From my point of view, the similarities are that you suffer the consequences due to something that is not your fault. It's life.

 

[Harlesden]

No different to the adult world where a web community (forum) might do away with its popular "Jokes" category because of a few morons misusing it to cause offense to others. A few idiots destroying something the majority enjoy and use in the intended manner

 

[Yew]

Its amazing how some clases behaviours can change with a good teacher. I was in a low set for french and german, exactly the same class, but the german teachers really struggled to control it, resulting in low grades, and lots of messing about. Whereas the French teacher had the class in complete control at all times, giving much better grades.

Shows an interesting insight I think..

 

[bb21]

Its amazing how some clases behaviours can change with a good teacher. I was in a low set for french and german, exactly the same class, but the german teachers really struggled to control it, resulting in low grades, and lots of messing about. Whereas the French teacher had the class in complete control at all times, giving much better grades.

Shows an interesting insight I think..

I think it is a well-known fact these days that teachers make a difference. The quality of teaching varies and no one can dispute that.

However anyone who has taught can tell you that even good teachers can struggle with certain classes. I dare say that there is not one single teacher in this country who has not struggled with a class one time or another.

 

[island]

It is true. But respect needs to be earned, not demanded as of right.

An allied problem is that many people who would make excellent teachers would not work for the amount that teachers are paid here, because they can make far more elsewhere.

 

[bb21]

It is true. But respect needs to be earned, not demanded as of right.

Aye, of course. The quality of teaching has a big impact on behaviour in the classroom, nevertheless good quality teaching does not automatically gain you respect and discipline. They still need to be taught, in one way or another.

A teacher who only ever dishes out detentions is not a good teacher by a long margin.

 

[fowler9]

At our school we only really had one teacher who would give out detentions on a regular basis. The thing was he was a Physics teacher who had his own lab where the detention was held and when you were in detention he tried to get you interested in the subject. He had all kinds of Van Der Graaf generators and bits of ham radio equipment.

The main form of punishment was the Satis card. You had to hand it in to the teacher at the start of every lesson to have it signed at the end, also your parents had to sign it when you did your homework. It actually seemed to work as people felt a bit ashamed to be on Satis.

I was lucky, it was a very good school with a lot of very good teachers. It was a funny set up though, it was grant maintained and selective but aside from that it was almost like a comprehensive. The number of people I've argued with over the years telling me I must have been rich to go there when it is actually free. They would swear blind it was a fee paying school and it wasn't/isn't.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

On the topic of class detentions, the worse/stupid/pointless detention I remember, was when I was in year 8, the teacher timed how long it was until everyone was quiet after the bell went, it took 16 seconds. We, as a class, were asked to come back at lunch, for a 16 second detention. :roll:. I refused to go on the basis that it would be utterly pointless, what did the teacher in question do, make me do 16 seconds next lunchtime. :roll:.

 

[harry42]

On the topic of class detentions, the worse/stupid/pointless detention I remember, was when I was in year 8, the teacher timed how long it was until everyone was quiet after the bell went, it took 16 seconds. We, as a class, were asked to come back at lunch, for a 16 second detention. :roll:. I refused to go on the basis that it would be utterly pointless, what did the teacher in question do, make me do 16 seconds next lunchtime. :roll:.

We do that...count down from 5. At zero if not quiet, then count up. Every second we count up, we stay behind for a minute. E.g. count upto 5 = we stay for 5 minutes. :roll:

 

[SS4]

When I was at school I was subjected to corporal punishment.

First had the tawse (belt) at the age of 7 in Primary School in Edinburgh.

Had the cane (in England) on a number of occasions - we used to get the choice between detention and the cane....

Cane every time for me ....short sharp shock that didn't work judging by the number of times I received it. Far better than hanging about for hours after school.

Also teachers used to regularly throw blackboard erasers , chalk and anything else that came to hand in your direction.

Sometimes they would come up behind you and whack you around the back of the head.

Ahhhh. happy days

Hey you! Behind the bike shed, stand still laddie!

I may be a modern softie but caning just seems like knowing what you did wrong but not knowing why. That said my time is practically worthless so detention it would have been.

For my part I've never had a detention, had a couple of class detentions that went close to going ahead but never seemed to. Words cannot express how frustrating and annoying it was, the popular kids never seemed to care (I was not popular) and almost regarded detention as a badge of honour.

Although from my school days I remember those less bright getting incentives to do well but these were not given out to those at the top

 

[ATW Alex 101]

Hey you! Behind the bike shed, stand still laddie!

In my school it's in the toilets, them flavoured vapour pens are seeming to be a favourite. Having tried one I don't see anything special about them. What confuses me is the way people claim to be the first people to be smoking in the toilets, when in fact it's been going on for ages. :roll:

 

[Butts]

Hey you! Behind the bike shed, stand still laddie!

I may be a modern softie but caning just seems like knowing what you did wrong but not knowing why. That said my time is practically worthless so detention it would have been.

For my part I've never had a detention, had a couple of class detentions that went close to going ahead but never seemed to. Words cannot express how frustrating and annoying it was, the popular kids never seemed to care (I was not popular) and almost regarded detention as a badge of honour.

Although from my school days I remember those less bright getting incentives to do well but these were not given out to those at the top

People have gone soft today....when I joined the RN I was subjected to the following.

1. Urinated on in the shower

2. Head stuffed down the turd strewn toilet bowl and the flush activated

3. Boot Polished Bollocks (takes ages to painfully remove )

4. Running around the parade ground at 2am in only boots and underpants with my mattress carried above my head.

From my post's you can tell I was not blighted in any way by this treatment

Other than being obsessed with B&H, Davros and East Coast 1st Class Freebies :roll:

 

[fowler9]

In my school it's in the toilets, them flavoured vapour pens are seeming to be a favourite. Having tried one I don't see anything special about them. What confuses me is the way people claim to be the first people to be smoking in the toilets, when in fact it's been going on for ages. :roll:

Ha ha. When I was a prefect I just used to keep dixie for fellow metalheads having a ciggy.

 

[swj99]

I'd already left school and started an A level course at college by the time I realized there was such a thing as a democratic education, otherwise I'd have liked to have gone to somewhere like Dartington.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_education

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dartington_Hall_School#Dartington_Hall_School

 

[underbank]

Whole class detentions are just a sign of a poor teacher, as are "detention-trigger-happy" teachers who constantly give out detentions, the lazy way instead of proper teaching.

I remember it well, in some classes our form was generally well behaved, in others, it resembled a war zone. Same kids, but different teachers!

Some teachers have the ability to command respect and attention, (some by nothing more than a look), usually by engaging with their pupils as humans! Other teachers have no ability to control a class other than by shouting, screaming, and hurling out punishments.

I remember vividly the "girl from hell" in our form - nothing but trouble. When it came to O levels, I ended up allocated a seat next to her for History and really feared the worse. But, as it happens, the History teacher was an "old-school-spinster" type who had "that look" and it turned out that this girl achieved her one and only O level in History! Instead of lazily shouting and punishing the girl, this teacher made the effort to talk to her, treat her like a human instead of a turd, and the girl responded really well and was no trouble at all. She was a Jeckyll & Hyde as she remained a pain in the bum for other subjects.

There can be no other explanation other than down to teacher quality as to why the same group of kids can behave and learn in one lesson yet be little horrors in another.

 

[tony_mac]

There can be no other explanation other than down to teacher quality as to why the same group of kids can behave and learn in one lesson yet be little horrors in another.

I disagree; there are lots of other explanations. You will definitely find that different teachers have problems with different groups; it is perfectly likely that it is the group that are the constant factor and not the teacher.
(If you teach the same class on Friday afternoon or Monday morning, you may find their behaviour remarkably different, is that the teacher's fault as well?).

Personally, I am something of an idealist - and I think a teacher's job should be about teaching - the act of education - not in how to manage/discipline unruly groups.

How about putting the blame for bad behaviour, and disrupting other people's learning, firmly at the door of those who are directly, and deliberately, responsible for it?

 

[Butts]

I disagree; there are lots of other explanations. You will definitely find that different teachers have problems with different groups; it is perfectly likely that it is the group that are the constant factor and not the teacher.
(If you teach the same class on Friday afternoon or Monday morning, you may find their behaviour remarkably different, is that the teacher's fault as well?).

Personally, I am something of an idealist - and I think a teacher's job should be about teaching - the act of education - not in how to manage/discipline unruly groups.

How about putting the blame for bad behaviour, and disrupting other people's learning, firmly at the door of those who are directly, and deliberately, responsible for it?

When I was at school there were certain teachers who used to be "wound up" on a regular basis - particularly student teachers.

However there were others (mainly old school) who you didn't dare step out of line with. These were usually men who called boys by surname and girls by Christian name. I admit they ruled by fear (of a whack around the head) and were hated but respected.

This element may be missing today

 

[underbank]

Personally, I am something of an idealist - and I think a teacher's job should be about teaching - the act of education - not in how to manage/discipline unruly groups.

Trouble is that you'll never live in the ideal world, so we all have to deal with reality, which, whatever job you are in, will always involve your customers, clients, suppliers, authorities, etc., not doing everything properly and exactly how you want them to behave. Other people not doing things as they should isn't the preserve of the education system. It happens in all walks of life. So, part of everyone's job must be to do their best given the circumstances presented, which will hardly ever be ideal.

Given that it is well know that children have a tendency to misbehave, not do what they're told, etc., then I'd say it's a fundamental skill of everyone working with children to be able to control them. There is no point in being the best teacher in the world if you don't have a full skillset to get your pupils to be receptive to your teaching. Kids have been misbehaving for decades, if not centuries, so it's nothing new.

It's just as bad for teachers to blame everyone else for unruly or undisciplined pupils! Everyone involved is part of the problem and everyone involved needs to be part of the solution.

 

[tony_mac]

Obviously, I understand that it is considered to be part of the job, I was just saying I would rather it wasn't (and, in some countries and cultures, this is still very much the case).

It's just as bad for teachers to blame everyone else for unruly or undisciplined pupils!

I think it's perfectly reasonable to blame unruly pupils for being unruly!

When you are blaming the teacher for the pupil's unruly behaviour, you are giving the message to the pupil that their behaviour is not actually their own responsibility. I don't believe that this is helpful.

 

[swj99]

However there were others (mainly old school) who you didn't dare step out of line with. These were usually men who called boys by surname and girls by Christian name. I admit they ruled by fear (of a whack around the head) and were hated but respected.

This element may be missing today

That element only works up to the point where someone breaks the spell, and it's an element of fear that results in a type of respect that isn't worth very much, because it is demanded, not earned. The other problem with it is that when teachers get it wrong, it offends other peoples' sense of fair play and can lead to problems later. The kind of respect that you earn is worth a lot more.

The headmaster at my old school still wore a black gown because it was an ex grammar school. I remember seeing the sixth formers throwing all their lit cigarettes out of the toilet windows when he stormed in there and caught them one break time.

The thing about a whack around the head is that while it may have been a good deterrent in some cases, there are many people who simply aren't the slightest bit scared of anything like that, because they know that the fear is, in most cases, worse than the pain.

There was one teacher, who never actually taught me as such, but I knew who he was, and had seen him on several occasions bully and intimidate younger kids, girls as well, by getting hold of them and slapping them around the face until they cried.
I'm not going into specifics on here, because for all I know, there might be members of this forum who'd know who I was talking about, but one day this teacher hit me, so I punched him. He stopped straight away, and seemed quite stunned that someone had actually hit him back. I don't know if anyone else had ever done it, or whether he would have carried on if it there hadn't been other people around. After I politely explained to him that it was self defence, nothing was done about it.
It was a bit of a rough school, and a couple of the games teachers were so into violence that they ran out of 5th years and sixth formers to have fights with, and had to resort to having fights with teachers from other schools to prove to whoever it was they had to prove something to, that they were hard or something. I wish I was joking about that, but I'm not.

 

[SS4]

People have gone soft today....when I joined the RN I was subjected to the following.

1. Urinated on in the shower

2. Head stuffed down the turd strewn toilet bowl and the flush activated

3. Boot Polished Bollocks (takes ages to painfully remove )

4. Running around the parade ground at 2am in only boots and underpants with my mattress carried above my head.

From my post's you can tell I was not blighted in any way by this treatment

Other than being obsessed with B&H, Davros and East Coast 1st Class Freebies :roll:

Nope, people were unnecessarily harsh when you were a lad to the point of being downright abusive. Can you honestly say those four things did anything to help you? At least you got the rum ration at the end of the day though