Schoolboy, 15, dragged off train by conductor

[swj99]

Schoolboy, 15, dragged off train by conductor who 'asked him politely'

I couldn't see any other mention of this on here.

A 15-year-old boy appears to have been picked up and hurled off a Northern train by a conductor while on his way to school.

Jennifer's teenage son, Marley, boarded the Wigan train with his twin sister at around 8.30am on Wednesday, November 22. The mum said she purchased their tickets on the Trainline app that morning, with virtual copies being emailed to the children's phones - but when a conductor asked to see the tickets, Marley was unable to immediately present his due to a poor wi-fi connection.

A shocking video - taken by his sister - shows the conductor grabbing the teenager as he appears to attempt to bring up the ticket on his phone. Marley can be heard saying "Do not touch me. Get off me now" as the conductor appears to drag him out of his seat and onto the platform at Gathurst, tearing the sleeve off his coat in the process.

Schoolboy dragged off train by conductor who 'asked him politely'

Mum said her daughter rang her in tears after her son was hurled off the train

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

 

[Anonymous10]

Schoolboy, 15, dragged off train by conductor who 'asked him politely'

I couldn't see any other mention of this on here.

Schoolboy dragged off train by conductor who 'asked him politely'

Mum said her daughter rang her in tears after her son was hurled off the train

www.liverpoolecho.co.uk

If this is indeed what happened I personally think the conductor is bang out of order and should be reprimanded as appropriate, its one thing if they had repeatedly tried to load the ticket or were not able to adhere to terms of travel. But the force used appears out of all proportion in the clip. Surely sale of a new ticket, a warning or any other tool would have been more appropriate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it's purely as pictured, I suspect that guard is going to end up charged with assault.

 

[ANDREW_D_WEBB]

Whilst there is always two sides to every story and the conductor should receive a fair chance to put this to his employer, this video presents it as very much excessive use of force. If I did that in my job (teaching) it would definitely be a meeting without biscuits and probably dismissal followed by a GTC hearing where I would not work in the profession again.

As a minor do Northern not have a duty of care that overrides the fact he might be without a valid ticket?

 

[rg177]

When I did revenue protection, the one thing I learned on day one was that if they're a kid on their way to school, you don't start causing aggro over a ticket - unless they're doing something particularly out of order. Get them to buy another and leave it at that (unless of course, they're doing the same thing every single day).

As for using such force that you tear someone's coat sleeve off, oh dear. If things are as they appear in the video, then I don't see the guard in question having a job for much longer.

Yes, kids can be awful and I certainly had my patience tested by many of them doing far worse than being without a ticket, but it never crossed my mind to start ragging them about.

 

[skyhigh]

If it's purely as pictured, I suspect that guard is going to end up charged with assault.

Byelaw 24 states:

Any person who is reasonably believed by an authorised person to be in breach of any of these byelaws and who fails to desist or leave when asked to do so by an authorised person may be removed from the railway by an authorised person using reasonable force.

So it essentially depends if there was a reasonable belief of a Byelaw breach and if this was reasonable force. On balance, based solely on the article, I would suggest that it wasn't reasonable force. There may be information missing that would change that judgement though.

That is completely different to whatever company policies may be. Last I checked Northern conductors were strictly told not to forcibly eject anyone (let alone minors) so this would likely be viewed as gross misconduct.

 

[Wolfie]

If it's purely as pictured, I suspect that guard is going to end up charged with assault.

Agreed at face value and potentially criminal damage for the ripped clothing too.

 

[skyhigh]

When I did revenue protection, the one thing I learned on day one was that if they're a kid on their way to school, you don't start causing aggro over a ticket - unless they're doing something particularly out of order. Get them to buy another and leave it at that (unless of course, they're doing the same thing every single day).

If they were doing the same thing every day on the way to school or behaving wildly out of order then the best way of dealing with it is to report it and let the company/BTP liaise with the school to identify the pupil and deal with it. Getting hands on with a minor is never a good idea.

 

[Wolfie]

Byelaw 24 states:

So it essentially depends if there was a reasonable belief of a Byelaw breach and if this was reasonable force. On balance, based solely on the article, I would suggest that it wasn't reasonable force. There may be information missing that would change that judgement though.

That is completely different to whatever company policies may be. Last I checked Northern conductors were strictly told not to forcibly eject anyone (let alone minors) so this would likely be viewed as gross misconduct.

Good luck to any employee dumb enough to try to use that defence in a Court. Particularly as it might well be trying to assert that the Railway Byelaws supercede national criminal law. Even better luck in trying to use it in any civil personal injury claim.

If they were doing the same thing every day on the way to school or behaving wildly out of order then the best way of dealing with it is to report it and let the company/BTP liaise with the school to identify the pupil and deal with it. Getting hands on with a minor is never a good idea.

The voice of reason.

 

[cactustwirly]

Byelaw 24 states:

So it essentially depends if there was a reasonable belief of a Byelaw breach and if this was reasonable force. On balance, based solely on the article, I would suggest that it wasn't reasonable force. There may be information missing that would change that judgement though.

That is completely different to whatever company policies may be. Last I checked Northern conductors were strictly told not to forcibly eject anyone (let alone minors) so this would likely be viewed as gross misconduct.

Clearly it isn't reasonable force, so there is no defence there.

 

[island]

Good luck to any employee dumb enough to try to use that defence in a Court. Particularly as it might well be trying to assert that the Railway Byelaws supercede national criminal law. Even better luck in trying to use it in any civil personal injury claim.

I mean, they do. The definition of assault by beating is applying unlawful force to another person. If the force is authorised by law, it's not unlawful force.

On the facts of this specific case, however, the force was not reasonable, therefore was not authorised by law, and the guard is at risk of an assault charge.

 

[Haywain]

On the facts of this specific case, however, the force was not reasonable, therefore was not authorised by law,

I haven't read the report but while your assertion is not in question as an opinion it is the case that a court may reach a different decision.

 

[Undiscovered]

Is there a link to the footage, as it's not visible in the Echo report?

 

[Wolfie]

Is there a link to the footage, as it's not visible in the Echo report?

Yes it is, at least for me, immediately after the headline.

The more that l watch it the worse that it gets. If that was my child an immediate police report would have gone in.

 

[Adam Williams]

Is there a link to the footage, as it's not visible in the Echo report?

I found I had to turn off my ad-blocker to get the play button to become visible. Once it was, I turned it back on and it played the video without any ads.

 

[Wolfie]

I mean, they do. The definition of assault by beating is applying unlawful force to another person. If the force is authorised by law, it's not unlawful force.

On the facts of this specific case, however, the force was not reasonable, therefore was not authorised by law, and the guard is at risk of an assault charge.

The definition that you quote is actually that for the offence of battery which is a subset of assault. I suggest that you look at the CPS Charging Standard (l can't post it all here) which will tell you exactly why a world of hurt, potentially involving imprisonment, is facing that employee.

 

[nanstallon]

Incredible. Perhaps Northern need to be more careful whom they recruit.

 

[Undiscovered]

I found I had to turn off my ad-blocker to get the play button to become visible. Once it was, I turned it back on and it played the video without any ads.

Yeah it's a Reach site...

 

[Sheffcaster202]

Looking into the article a bit further…admittedly past several 100 advertisements etc…

“Craig Harrop, regional director for Northern, said: “We are aware of the incident at Gathurst station on Wednesday 22 November and have seen the footage that has been shared on social media. We are in the process of conducting an internal investigation and have already spoken to the conductor of the service in question and will be reviewing the CCTV footage from the station.”

A British Transport Police spokesman said: "Officers are currently investigating reports of an assault on board a Northern Rail service toward Wigan in the morning of Wednesday, November 22. Enquiries into this incident are ongoing, with BTP liaising with Northern Rail. Anyone with information is asked to contact BTP by texting 61016 or by calling 0800 40 50 40, quoting reference 328 of November 22 2023."

 

[Bluejays]

Jeez, what on earth possessed him to do that. Hard to see any alternative than a sacking.

Kid does look like a right idiot mind. While the grab and ejection from the conductor could definitely be construed as assault, I'd suggest the aggressive push from the kid (teenager) at the end could also be construed as assault.

 

[Haywain]

Jeez, what on earth possessed him to do that. Hard to see any alternative than a sacking.

Well, we don't know what else was going on in their life, so perhaps we shouldn't be too quick to pass judgement about the character of that individual.

 

[Llanigraham]

I wonder how much the sister didn't video as it might have incriminated her brother?
As usual there are 3 sides to every occucerence, and we are only seeing one of them.

 

[yorkie]

I was eventually able to view the image on my phone (it didn't work on my PC, using Edge or Chrome, but that may be due to blockers I have in place).

I have experience of a wide range of jobs and that does include supervising young people of this age and I can absolutely say that if I had done what the Guard did, there is absolutely no way I would avoid being dismissed. I would spare any disciplinary action and simply resign on the spot. I would also expect criminal charges to be brought against me.

But there is simply no way I would be doing anything like that; you would never push someone off a train unless someone was in danger.

What really surprised me when I saw the video is that this lad is big for 15 and the Guard must have used a lot of force to do this! When I saw the headline, I thought the 15 year old may be smaller (15 year olds are very variable; some are tiny and pass for 11 easily, while others can be taller, bigger and stronger than many adults); to use that much force over a ticketing dispute is completely absurd.

Am I surprised? Yes I am rather, but not completely (which I should be). I am not totally surprised as, sadly, I believe that insufficient safeguards are in place by many TOCs, and especially Northern, to ensure consistency of the quality of staff, the knowledge of the staff, and the attitude of the staff.

That said, this behaviour goes well beyond the low level unacceptable behaviour I have previously been aware of, by what it has to be said is a minority of Northern staff. I do find Northern guards to be among the least consistent of all TOCs I regularly travel with in many areas (the good ones are absolute stars, and the worst, well I'll be careful what I say here; I will add that good ones do vastly outnumber bad ones); but for the avoidance of doubt, I would say the vast majority are absolutely sound and would never behave in the manner depicted in this video. This is totally unrepresentative of the vast majority of Northern guards who, no doubt, would be keen to disassociate themselves from the behaviour shown in the video.

I have heard of guards incorrectly removing passengers - who had purchased valid tickets - from trains, and even swearing at passengers, but it is a tiny minority who behave like that, and even then nothing I've heard has been on the scale of that shown in this video.

I hope Northern learn lessons from this, but I don't have much confidence in the management of the company to ever fully implement measures that I would deem fully acceptable, in respect of customer service matters.

Kid does look like a right idiot mind. While the grab and ejection from the conductor could definitely be construed as assault, I'd suggest the aggressive push from the kid (teenager) at the end could also be construed as assault.

Only if our legal system is completely bonkers. (Yes, it is fairly bonkers, but that bonkers? )

I'd say the Guard was very lucky it was only a tiny push, and the kid did well not to do worse, as it could have got them into trouble.

If the Guard had picked on the wrong person, it could easily have been a full-blown fight, and if it had been, it would have been worse for all parties, and especially the Guard.

 

[Wolfie]

Jeez, what on earth possessed him to do that. Hard to see any alternative than a sacking.

Kid does look like a right idiot mind. While the grab and ejection from the conductor could definitely be construed as assault, I'd suggest the aggressive push from the kid (teenager) at the end could also be construed as assault.

Even if your last sentence is correct retaliation due to provocation is unlikely to be viewed anything like as seriously as the original incident. Particularly given that it was by an adult in a responsible position on a minor.

 

[AlterEgo]

No excuse for that really, just manhandled a child off the train while he was sitting down. Anyone excusing that’s lost their head.

 

[bramling]

No excuse for that really, just manhandled a child off the train while he was sitting down. Anyone excusing that’s lost their head.

Nonetheless, as always with these things I would like to see the *whole* incident, not just the latter part of it, before coming to any kind of judgement. We are only seeing part of the incident here.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No excuse for that really, just manhandled a child off the train while he was sitting down. Anyone excusing that’s lost their head.

Yes, it’s abhorrent.

 

[yorkie]

Nonetheless, as always with these things I would like to see the *whole* incident, not just the latter part of it, before coming to any kind of judgement. We are only seeing part of the incident here.

It does not matter what happened earlier, you would only be able to legitimately use force to remove someone from the train if someone was in danger. There is no apparent danger at the start of the video.

If, in some hypothetical situation, the passenger had assaulted someone earlier, but was now sat down calmly in their seat, you'd not randomly reignite the situation like that.

If you think that any prior behaviour warrants this reaction, then you are very much mistaken.

If you are customer-facing, then you would (or should) know conflict management/avoidance techniques.

If you are in a position of trust then you have to act in an appropriate manner. We are not talking about a random member of the public here.

I've encountered all sorts of challenging behaviour, and yet never have I attempted, or considered attempting, anything like this.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Nonetheless, as always with these things I would like to see the *whole* incident, not just the latter part of it, before coming to any kind of judgement. We are only seeing part of the incident here.

No “provocation” before could excuse being physically forceful.

 

[bramling]

It does not matter what happened earlier, you would only be able to legitimately use force to remove someone from the train if someone was in danger. There is no apparent danger at the start of the video.

Not disputing that. However I am always mindful that when we see a video of the latter stages of an incident we have no idea at all what may have come before.