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Scotland: Forward thinking with their railways?

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Eagle

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Under your system, why is, say, South Yorkshire included but the similarly-sized Greater Bristol or Edinburgh are not?

All I'm saying is that trying to categorize things this way is completely arbitrary and pointless.
 
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tbtc

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trying to categorize things this way is completely arbitrary and pointless

Yes, but it allows people to feel hard done by!

(FWIW I think that South Yorkshire is nothing like as "urban" as Greater Manchester/ Greater Glasgow/ Greater Birmingham, so there's no point in comparing Sheffield with those cities"
 

anti-pacer

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Under your system, why is, say, South Yorkshire included but the similarly-sized Greater Bristol or Edinburgh are not?

All I'm saying is that trying to categorize things this way is completely arbitrary and pointless.

Bristol and Edinburgh don't have the weight of PTE's behind them.

Our largest cities should have a pretty equal standard in rail services, accepting of course that London will always be a different kettle of fish!
 

Eagle

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Yes, but it allows people to feel hard done by!

Indeed, with the right statistics you can prove anything.

For instance, the South East Dorset conurbation, 16th on the ONS's list I linked, is the largest urban area served by only one railway line (no junctions, at least not between passenger lines), and the largest urban area not on the trunk road network.
 

anti-pacer

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Indeed, with the right statistics you can prove anything.

For instance, the South East Dorset conurbation, 16th on the ONS's list I linked, is the largest urban area served by only one railway line (no junctions, at least not between passenger lines), and the largest urban area not on the trunk road network.

But has a decent standard of service and stock compared to bigger conurbations in the North.
 

MidnightFlyer

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In what way?

Stock I will agree with, as it's all post-2000, but how is the surprisingly minimal level of service better?

I was about to say, wouldn't SE Dorset be just the 3tph (2 ex-Weymouth) to London and the hourly Bournemouth-Manchester? Weymouth and Dorchester are in separate districts, and Lymington's in Hampshire isn't it? Even with 3tph to London the timetable I think is rather poor and especially west of Southampton isn't very attractive.
 

anti-pacer

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I was about to say, wouldn't SE Dorset be just the 3tph (2 ex-Weymouth) to London and the hourly Bournemouth-Manchester? Weymouth and Dorchester are in separate districts, and Lymington's in Hampshire isn't it? Even with 3tph to London the timetable I think is rather poor and especially west of Southampton isn't very attractive.

So effectively Bournemouth and Southampton have the same frequency of service between each other than Leeds and Sheffield.... two MUCH bigger cities.

Wouldn't call it that bad! :neutral:
 

MidnightFlyer

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I wouldn't argue it was, but the SWML timetable down that way is poor with regard to calling points and spacing - for example stops there are stations with 2tph in each directions, with both calling inside 7 mins of each other - Pokesdown and Christchurch I think are the two worst examples. It's just a consequence of them being on a mainline and the fact that said mainline is the only actual route serving the conurbation that there are so many trains. There are worse examples y'know - I would imagine Ramsgate-Margate isn't far off 4tph, and Eastbourne-Lewes is 5tph. Just the way railway geography works.
 

Eagle

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Even with 3tph to London the timetable I think is rather poor and especially west of Southampton isn't very attractive.

The official definition of the conurbation is from Upton to New Milton and Ringwood.

Also it doesn't really have 3tph to London, as one of those is overtaken by both of the other two.
 

junglejames

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On the subject of Airdrie-Bathgate, the pathetically poor usage of the line has not escaped the notice of Scotrail who have been sending one of their staff to conduct passenger counts.

It doesn't take him long, he amuses himself for the rest of the journey by playing games on his smartphone.

Hopefully Scotrail will see sense and close this white elephant.

and now time for you to open your eyes and leave the house. Admittedly at first, usage between Airdrie and Bathgate was low. The traffic was all between Glasgow and Airdrie, and Bathgate- Edinburgh. However the trains are gradually starting to become well used all along the route. It is now very well used, and I can only see usage increasing. Four trains an hour, a lot of them formed of 6 coaches, and all of the trains with a fairly healthy load, especially at peak times. Doesnt sound like a white elephant to me.
No it doesnt get as busy as via Falkirk, but then again, the trains via Bathgate have 2+3 seating. Reduce them to 2+2, and the Airdrie Bathgate trains would be uncomfortable. Just like via Falkirk.

So sorry, but your comments are very wide of the mark.
 
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class303

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I do love these North v South, England v Scotland, London v Manchester, [insert your gripe here] threads. I think you might be missing the point a little. :lol:



Glasgow is never going to see the public transport network than London has - how could it?!


hmmm. Glasgow's rail network is the most intensive outside of London, the majority of which is electrified. While obviously it doesn't compare to London, I could see why someone in Birmingham or Manchester could look at Glasgow and feel short-changed somewhat. that said, it is the (or used to be) the 2nd city of the empire!
 

Altnabreac

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I wasn't being sarcastic. In fact I found your posts on this quite interesting and informative. I was just thinking that with all the competing demands on the capital budget it wouldn't be possible to take forward all the big transport projects simultaneously. I'll expand on my thinking:

A lot of the programmed infrastructure spend is to be financed under the SNP's Non Profit Distributing model (PFI in old money). However, they have a self-imposed limit on borrowing to the extent that repayments on PFI/DBFO/NPD cannot exceed 4% of their total budget. I assume RAB borrowing is factored in also but I'm not certain about that. That borrowing cap is likely to be reached in a few years time when unitary charge payments on the two big NPD-financed road schemes (M8/M73/M74 Improvements and AWPR) become payable. So the borrowing capability reduces. Then consider that overall budgets will continue to shrink (another 7 years of austerity we now hear). Consequently the transport capital budget will come under pressure if schools, hospitals etc are to continue to get built.

There is of course the prospect of additional borrowing powers but it's only a few billion and I don't think the SG would want to spend it all on one project.

With regard to the A9, £3 billion is not my figure its the Government's estimate. It wont be spread evenly over 10 years as most of the construction spend is scheduled for the period 2020-2025 as can be seen from the Programme Document:http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...erth_to_Inverness_-_Programme_-_June_2012.pdf.

Taking all these financial factors into account I think its highly unlikely the A9 and HSR would be constructed at the same time. I take on board your point about the political importance of HSR. Hence why I think it will take priority and the later phases of the A9 will be deferred.

Apologies for the misunderstanding. Before the thread was hijacked by Nationalists of both the British and Scottish variety we were having an interesting discussion about transport...

I agree with you about the A9. When you look at the programme document for it there is a big bunching of schemes in 2022-2025 and both financially and logistically it will probably make sense to phase it a bit more with a completion date of 2030.

In many ways both the A9 dualling and HSR to Scotland are similar projects. They are by no means without either Transport or Economic benefits. However I suspect neither scheme has the highest BCR. They are however politically important to make the peripheral region (Scotland in one case, Highlands in the other) feel connected to the rest of the country (UK in one case, Scotland in the other).

For that reason I think both schemes will happen as whatever the outcome of the referendum, oil prices, etc transport infrastructure investment is increasingly recognised by economists and politicians as an important way to stimulate the economy. The Scottish Government (Executive is either 6 years or 18 months out of date DarloRich, abolished either by Salmond in 2007 or Cameron in 2012 depending on your leanings, also no need for scare quotes on Parliament!) has made particular efforts to cut revenue rather than capital spending and I suspect this trend will continue in Scotland at least.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also agree with you regarding NPD, have yet to see how it will actually function. Suspect AWPR and M8 Network Completion will be majority funded by annual capital spend and not NPD.

There are a lot of big transport capital projects happening in Scotland over the next 10 years. I think that's a good thing, both for the Scottish and UK economies. Hopefully Westminster politicians may see the economic benefits of what's happening up north and approve more capital spend in England outside London...
 

ainsworth74

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Apologies for the misunderstanding. Before the thread was hijacked by Nationalists of both the British and Scottish variety we were having an interesting discussion about transport...

To that end I have split the discussion about Scottish Independence out of this thread and into another one in the General Discussion forum which can be found here. I would therefore ask going forward that this thread remains dedicated to discussing railway related matter and more general discussion of independence is continued in the other thread.
 

anti-pacer

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To that end I have split the discussion about Scottish Independence out of this thread and into another one in the General Discussion forum which can be found here. I would therefore ask going forward that this thread remains dedicated to discussing railway related matter and more general discussion of independence is continued in the other thread.

Hallelujah! :lol:
 

GRALISTAIR

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To that end I have split the discussion about Scottish Independence out of this thread and into another one in the General Discussion forum which can be found here. I would therefore ask going forward that this thread remains dedicated to discussing railway related matter and more general discussion of independence is continued in the other thread.

Thank you.
 

clc

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Apologies for the misunderstanding. Before the thread was hijacked by Nationalists of both the British and Scottish variety we were having an interesting discussion about transport...

I agree with you about the A9. When you look at the programme document for it there is a big bunching of schemes in 2022-2025 and both financially and logistically it will probably make sense to phase it a bit more with a completion date of 2030.

In many ways both the A9 dualling and HSR to Scotland are similar projects. They are by no means without either Transport or Economic benefits. However I suspect neither scheme has the highest BCR. They are however politically important to make the peripheral region (Scotland in one case, Highlands in the other) feel connected to the rest of the country (UK in one case, Scotland in the other).

For that reason I think both schemes will happen as whatever the outcome of the referendum, oil prices, etc transport infrastructure investment is increasingly recognised by economists and politicians as an important way to stimulate the economy. The Scottish Government (Executive is either 6 years or 18 months out of date DarloRich, abolished either by Salmond in 2007 or Cameron in 2012 depending on your leanings, also no need for scare quotes on Parliament!) has made particular efforts to cut revenue rather than capital spending and I suspect this trend will continue in Scotland at least.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also agree with you regarding NPD, have yet to see how it will actually function. Suspect AWPR and M8 Network Completion will be majority funded by annual capital spend and not NPD.

There are a lot of big transport capital projects happening in Scotland over the next 10 years. I think that's a good thing, both for the Scottish and UK economies. Hopefully Westminster politicians may see the economic benefits of what's happening up north and approve more capital spend in England outside London...

No worries, the brevity of my earlier posts probably contributed to the misunderstanding.

I've been trying to get a handle on this whole Glasgow-Edinburgh HSR concept; an understanding of the economic case; the vision I suppose. I do like the idea of a sub 30 minute journey time as I can see how bringing the two cities closer together would bring economic benefits for both. I would like to be confident that whatever is built stacks up economically bearing in mind the huge capital cost, but it's difficult to make a judgement because there is uncertainty about whether it will eventually connect to a cross-border HSR line.

Re NPD, as far as the two big road schemes are concerned my understanding is that the construction costs and 30-year maintenance costs will be fully financed by the winning bidders. The SG will then make unitary charge payments for 30 years. There will also be capital spend relating to utility diversions, professional fees and land purchase of course.

I agree with you on the importance of investment in transport infrastructure. Great progress has been made since devolution under various administrations, we need to maintain the momentum.
 

Altnabreac

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No worries, the brevity of my earlier posts probably contributed to the misunderstanding.

I've been trying to get a handle on this whole Glasgow-Edinburgh HSR concept; an understanding of the economic case; the vision I suppose. I do like the idea of a sub 30 minute journey time as I can see how bringing the two cities closer together would bring economic benefits for both. I would like to be confident that whatever is built stacks up economically bearing in mind the huge capital cost, but it's difficult to make a judgement because there is uncertainty about whether it will eventually connect to a cross-border HSR line.

Scottish High Speed Rail

Costs

If we assume the costs are around £1.5Bn – £2Bn spread over 8 years (2016 – 2024) we are looking at £250M a year or so capital investment over the period. At present the Scottish Government spend in the region of £500M a year on the Scotrail franchise and £300M a year on Rail Infrastructure investment. They also spend around £700M a year on roads of which £300M a year goes on the Forth Replacement Crossing. Even with other major trunk road projects (AWPR, A9 dualling, M8 improvements) there should be opportunities within these two budgets to cover this initial HSR phase without all other road/rail projects being cancelled.

Benefits

Firstly obviously Scottish HSR provides the extra services planned under the initial EGIP programme only with even faster journey times. The journey time is likely to be more like 25 minutes than the 35 minutes planned under EGIP. This time would come down even further in future phases once dedicated city centre stations and routes were built.

Under EGIP the extra non-stop services were to be 2tph supplemented by the existing stoppers. My suspicion would be to be seen as a viable “turn up and go” replacement for the Falkirk services there would have to be at least a 3tph frequency on the new HS line as 2tph would be seen as a definite step backwards. So lets assume a 3tph 25 minute service from Glasgow Central – Edinburgh Waverley.

This generates significant journey time savings for all Edinburgh – Glasgow travellers and further benefits for travellers from Inverclyde, Renfrewshire, Ayrshire and South Glasgow as the new services provide a much more convenient connection at Central than crossing Glasgow for the Falkirk High service or using the semi fast Shotts / Carstairs services.

It also obviously provides significant additional capacity for travellers from Falkirk, Croy, Polmont, Linlithgow on the existing 4tph service to Queen St. This service is likely to remain 4tph but there may well be additional Linlithgow and Croy stops. It also allows the possibility of new stops in the service allowing direct Lenzie – Edinburgh services and Edinburgh Park – Glasgow QS via Falkirk services.

The Dalmeny curve will be required to allow space for the new HS services on the south lines at Haymarket . This will divert some Glasgow QS – Edinburgh via Falkirk services onto the north lines giving an additional stop at Edinburgh Gateway with access to Edinburgh Airport and RBS HQ via the tram. The curve will also make timetabling of stops (probably in the Dunblane service) at the fully funded new station at Winchburgh (by housing developers) much easier to timetable.

Edinburgh and Glasgow to Manchester and London services will also be speeded up and made more reliable, particularly the Glasgow trains which will be completely separated from the suburban network with the existing Glasgow Central – Rutherglen line becoming HS trains only and Rutherglen – Carstairs becoming suburban only.

The cross border services would save 10 – 15 minutes on current journey times helping bring post HS2 London Edinburgh – Glasgow journey times down towards the magic 3 hour mark from the currently predicted 3.38.

The removal of 1-2tph of Glasgow – Manchester and Glasgow – London trains from the Lanarkshire network between Rutherglen and Carstairs also creates capacity. This is particularly the case at Motherwell but also places like Newton where capacity and timetabling bottlenecks restrict service speed and flexibility. This should make the development of new / improved services in this area easier. All sorts of recasts are possible with options involving Whifflet trains being extended, new services to Ravenscraig development site, faster Lanark trains which don’t go via Hamilton, Shotts line trains becoming skip stop instead of fast slow and diverted to the Argyle line etc.

I also suspect the Scottish Government would be pleased to kill off HS2’s rather daft current plan to split HS London – Scotland services at Carstairs. If the high speed spur connected with the WCML south of Carstairs (which helps avoid interaction with local services) then if a split was to be used it would have to happen at the much more sensible location of Carlisle.

Finally the really important part of the project is it gets HS rail up and running in Scotland on the same timescale as England. Instead of being seen by international investors as a backwater that may get investment 30 years down the line they can see that high speed routes are already under construction in Scotland. Whichever route is subsequently chosen to connect with HS2 the fact there is a pre existing route to connect to leaves a gap to be filled rather than an extension to nowhere. It also emphasises the strategic national nature of the remaining line to be built which should then be funded from the National UK pot not from SG funds...
 

edwin_m

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Excellent analysis Altnabreac, but I think you should be referring to Birmngham services not Manchester ones. There are currently no plans for Manchester-Scotland trains to use HS2 though I'd be quite surprised if it doesn't happen at some stage.

Part of the reason to split at Carstairs is that HS2 want all the trains out of London to be two coupled sets to maximise capacity usage. Central wouldn't be able to handle such a train without a major rebuild*, although Waverley might if they can use the double length platforms. Splitting at Carlisle has the disadvantage that the two portions would follow each other northwards, so one or the other would have to wait three or four minutes. This doesn't apply at Carstairs because the two portions depart in different directions, although for joining one would have to arrive before the other.

Taking an optimistic view, high speed all the way to Scotland might double the demand and therefore justify coupled sets going to both Glasgow and Edinburgh, although that assumes the use of more capacity for Scottish services between London and Birmingham. That project would have to include stations in both Glasgow and Edinburgh able to take trains of that length.

*there are some very tempting-looking extra piers in the Clyde!
 

clc

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Scottish High Speed Rail

Costs

If we assume the costs are around £1.5Bn – £2Bn spread over 8 years (2016 – 2024) we are looking at £250M a year or so capital investment over the period. At present the Scottish Government spend in the region of £500M a year on the Scotrail franchise and £300M a year on Rail Infrastructure investment. They also spend around £700M a year on roads of which £300M a year goes on the Forth Replacement Crossing. Even with other major trunk road projects (AWPR, A9 dualling, M8 improvements) there should be opportunities within these two budgets to cover this initial HSR phase without all other road/rail projects being cancelled.

Benefits

Firstly obviously Scottish HSR provides the extra services planned under the initial EGIP programme only with even faster journey times. The journey time is likely to be more like 25 minutes than the 35 minutes planned under EGIP. This time would come down even further in future phases once dedicated city centre stations and routes were built.

Under EGIP the extra non-stop services were to be 2tph supplemented by the existing stoppers. My suspicion would be to be seen as a viable “turn up and go” replacement for the Falkirk services there would have to be at least a 3tph frequency on the new HS line as 2tph would be seen as a definite step backwards. So lets assume a 3tph 25 minute service from Glasgow Central – Edinburgh Waverley.

This generates significant journey time savings for all Edinburgh – Glasgow travellers and further benefits for travellers from Inverclyde, Renfrewshire, Ayrshire and South Glasgow as the new services provide a much more convenient connection at Central than crossing Glasgow for the Falkirk High service or using the semi fast Shotts / Carstairs services.

It also obviously provides significant additional capacity for travellers from Falkirk, Croy, Polmont, Linlithgow on the existing 4tph service to Queen St. This service is likely to remain 4tph but there may well be additional Linlithgow and Croy stops. It also allows the possibility of new stops in the service allowing direct Lenzie – Edinburgh services and Edinburgh Park – Glasgow QS via Falkirk services.

The Dalmeny curve will be required to allow space for the new HS services on the south lines at Haymarket . This will divert some Glasgow QS – Edinburgh via Falkirk services onto the north lines giving an additional stop at Edinburgh Gateway with access to Edinburgh Airport and RBS HQ via the tram. The curve will also make timetabling of stops (probably in the Dunblane service) at the fully funded new station at Winchburgh (by housing developers) much easier to timetable.

Edinburgh and Glasgow to Manchester and London services will also be speeded up and made more reliable, particularly the Glasgow trains which will be completely separated from the suburban network with the existing Glasgow Central – Rutherglen line becoming HS trains only and Rutherglen – Carstairs becoming suburban only.

The cross border services would save 10 – 15 minutes on current journey times helping bring post HS2 London Edinburgh – Glasgow journey times down towards the magic 3 hour mark from the currently predicted 3.38.

The removal of 1-2tph of Glasgow – Manchester and Glasgow – London trains from the Lanarkshire network between Rutherglen and Carstairs also creates capacity. This is particularly the case at Motherwell but also places like Newton where capacity and timetabling bottlenecks restrict service speed and flexibility. This should make the development of new / improved services in this area easier. All sorts of recasts are possible with options involving Whifflet trains being extended, new services to Ravenscraig development site, faster Lanark trains which don’t go via Hamilton, Shotts line trains becoming skip stop instead of fast slow and diverted to the Argyle line etc.

I also suspect the Scottish Government would be pleased to kill off HS2’s rather daft current plan to split HS London – Scotland services at Carstairs. If the high speed spur connected with the WCML south of Carstairs (which helps avoid interaction with local services) then if a split was to be used it would have to happen at the much more sensible location of Carlisle.

Finally the really important part of the project is it gets HS rail up and running in Scotland on the same timescale as England. Instead of being seen by international investors as a backwater that may get investment 30 years down the line they can see that high speed routes are already under construction in Scotland. Whichever route is subsequently chosen to connect with HS2 the fact there is a pre existing route to connect to leaves a gap to be filled rather than an extension to nowhere. It also emphasises the strategic national nature of the remaining line to be built which should then be funded from the National UK pot not from SG funds...

Thanks for that explanation of the benefits. A 25 min journey time would be superb. I do like the idea of Central Station being the terminal for HSR. On top of the significant connectivity benefits you described it is also closer to the Business District/IFSD than Queen St. It's an exciting prospect if they can pull it off.
 

Altnabreac

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Excellent analysis Altnabreac, but I think you should be referring to Birmngham services not Manchester ones. There are currently no plans for Manchester-Scotland trains to use HS2 though I'd be quite surprised if it doesn't happen at some stage.

Part of the reason to split at Carstairs is that HS2 want all the trains out of London to be two coupled sets to maximise capacity usage. Central wouldn't be able to handle such a train without a major rebuild*, although Waverley might if they can use the double length platforms. Splitting at Carlisle has the disadvantage that the two portions would follow each other northwards, so one or the other would have to wait three or four minutes. This doesn't apply at Carstairs because the two portions depart in different directions, although for joining one would have to arrive before the other.

Taking an optimistic view, high speed all the way to Scotland might double the demand and therefore justify coupled sets going to both Glasgow and Edinburgh, although that assumes the use of more capacity for Scottish services between London and Birmingham. That project would have to include stations in both Glasgow and Edinburgh able to take trains of that length.

*there are some very tempting-looking extra piers in the Clyde!

You're right, I completely forgot the Birmingham services. Manchester - Scotland services would still use Scottish High Speed Rail though, I would imagine all Cross Border WCML services except the sleeper would do so.

Indeed you would imagine XC services Glasgow - Edinburgh - Leeds and beyond would use it as well as you would imagine electrification to at least Birmingham would have taken place by then.

Remember the plan is for this to be up and running before HS2 reaches Manchester so Birmingham services will not be on High speed either.

All this means the Scottish line is likely to need conventional signalling so existing stock can use it in the first instance.
 

edwin_m

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Not necessarily. ERTMS will probably be operating on several main lines by then, so hopefully some stock will be fitted and people will have worked out how to retrofit various other types.
 
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