Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[Journeyman]

The 7:45 to Edinburgh from Linlithgow today was a pair of 170s, packed like sardines from Linlithgow! The 385 was not in the loop at this point as far as I’m aware.

I was on the 0749 going the other way to Glasgow. The 385 was indeed in the loop at the time.

 

[Stopper]

I was on the 0749 going the other way to Glasgow. The 385 was indeed in the loop at the time.

It certainly wasn’t in the loop around 7:30-7:35 when I parked in the Tesco car park....it must have arrived before I got onto the platform.

But I noticed that the usual 385 on the North Berwick to Haymarket morning service was a 380, have all 385s been withdrawn?

 

[Journeyman]

But I noticed that the usual 385 on the North Berwick to Haymarket morning service was a 380, have all 385s been withdrawn?

Certainly looks that way. I think the 0815 Glasgow - Edinburgh was a pair of 170s.

 

[Stopper]

Certainly looks that way. I think the 0815 Glasgow - Edinburgh was a pair of 170s.

This could be a potential disaster. I hope this isn’t a long term issue.

 

[Highland37]

For all the issues Scotrail and Transport Scotland have caused and are responsible for, there are many, they are vastly outweighed but the appalling performance of Hitachi and Wabtec.

 

[Highlandspring]

It certainly wasn’t in the loop around 7:30-7:35 when I parked in the Tesco car park....it must have arrived before I got onto the platform.

The 385 units (a 7 car made up of 122 and 004) have been in Linlithgow Loop since yesterday afternoon and won’t be moving anywhere for a while to come.

 

[InOban]

Presumably the Hitachi engineers will need to investigate the issue, since they are still under guarantee.

 

[superalbs]

All the 385s have been withdrawn.
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....ins-withdrawn-over-defective-brakes-1-4810373

ScotRail has today taken its brand new fleet of electric trains out of service as a "precaution" over defective brakes, The Scotsman can reveal.

The move caused a shortage of carriages for commuters on the main Edinburgh-Glasgow line today.

It was triggered by one of the class 385 trains suffering a brake fault on the line at Winchburgh yesterday, which blocked the line and caused significant disruption.

ScotRail admitted it was the latest of a series of similar problems to have hit the trains since last month - just two months after being introduced.

Six of the fleet of 70 Japanese-designed Hitachi trains have been running on the line and on the North Berwick-Edinburgh route.

ScotRail said some of its services had fewer carriages than normal on the main Edinburgh-Glasgow line via Falkirk High route this morning as a result.

A "small number of services" on the North Berwick line also had fewer carriages than usual.

A rail source said of a previous incident last month: “The train almost overshot Falkirk High, due to ‘very poor brakes’ after investigation by Hitachi.

“In the rear three carriages, a computer isolated all the brakes for no apparent reason, so only the front four carriages were braking.”

ScotRail chief operating officer Angus Thom said the trains had been taken out of passenger service while the "technical" fault was investigated.

He said: “As a precaution, while Hitachi carries out further testing, we are restricting the use of class 385 trains.

“We are sorry to any customers whose journey was disrupted as a result of this.”

A ScotRail spokesman said last night: “The train in question today is heading to [Edinburgh depot] Craigentinny for testing.

“It caused some delays and cancellations earlier in the day.

“There were a small number of cancellations in September caused by the fault.

“All trains have normal braking and secondary braking to keep people safe.”

The first train in the fleet entered service in July, ten months late, after a series of problems including the driver's windscreen, which had to replaced because it distorted the view of signals at night.

There were also delays to the electrification of the main Edinburgh-Glasgow line.

 

[mde]

All the 385s have been withdrawn.
https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....ins-withdrawn-over-defective-brakes-1-4810373

Al Dalton's clearly reading rail forums again then!

 

[ScotTrains]

"a computer isolated all the brakes for no apparent reason,"

What have the Russians got against Scotrail?

 

[Journeyman]

What have the Russians got against Scotrail?

The Scots voted Remain?

 

[InOban]

Would the same computer isolate both the regen and mechanical braking systems?

BTW, the Scotrail Twitter feed has made no mention of the 385 withdrawal.

 

[Stopper]

The ScotRail twitter has barely mentioned anything, bizarrely. Hopefully this issue can be quickly resolved and the 385s can get back on the overcrowded E-G line.

 

[Darandio]

Al Dalton's clearly reading rail forums again then!

Indeed!

And I wasn't sure it was even possible for one website to have so many adverts.

 

[adrock1976]

This question may be a better fit in the Timetables section, but would it be possible to run the temporary timetable similar to engineering/strike days?

I am referring to the frequency reduced to every 30 minutes departing Glasgow Queen Street at xx:00 and xx:30 calling at Croy, Falkirk High, Polmont, Linlithgow, Haymarket, and Edinburgh Waverley, with the departures from Waverley being at xx:15 and xx:45. The trains could run as 365s all coupled up, which would require 8 out of 10 365s, and maybe 2 x 380s if I have done the maths correctly.

 

[Journeyman]

This question may be a better fit in the Timetables section, but would it be possible to run the temporary timetable similar to engineering/strike days?

I am referring to the frequency reduced to every 30 minutes departing Glasgow Queen Street at xx:00 and xx:30 calling at Croy, Falkirk High, Polmont, Linlithgow, Haymarket, and Edinburgh Waverley, with the departures from Waverley being at xx:15 and xx:45. The trains could run as 365s all coupled up, which would require 8 out of 10 365s, and maybe 2 x 380s if I have done the maths correctly.

They don't have to do that - they're running the full service, with two diagrams covered by 6-car 170s.

 

[adrock1976]

They don't have to do that - they're running the full service, with two diagrams covered by 6-car 170s.

Many thanks for clarifying.

I was probably getting myself muddled with some more 170s leaving at some point in the near future.

 

[Southsider]

Many thanks for clarifying.

I was probably getting myself muddled with some more 170s leaving at some point in the near future.

It’s also a reminder of how few 385s were actually in service.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

It’s just teething problems it happens with all modern units. Look at the trouble with the 334s and 380s. They’ll get it sorted as soon as they can - delayed - but as soon as they can.

It is bizarre to think that such a busy route has only just started to receive electric trains in 2018 when routes like Ayrshire have been wired for over 30 years.

 

[SPADTrap]

The Scotsman article mentions that the brakes on the rear set were isolated in the earlier incident so it may be an issue with the multiple working system. If that is the fault then a single unit would be ok.

'If' 'What'..

 

[mark-h]

BBC News has published an article giving no information at all about what the fault is.

ScotRail has withdrawn its newest trains from service following the discovery of a technical fault.

The fault was identified on Thursday on one of the Hitachi class 385 electric trains, introduced to the fleet in July.

A spokesman for ScotRail confirmed all three 385 trains in passenger service have been removed for testing.

It is understood this led to a shortage of carriages on the main Edinburgh-Glasgow line on Friday morning.

ScotRail chief operating officer Angus Thom has apologised to any passengers whose journeys have been disrupted.

He said: "The brand new Hitachi class 385 electric trains have been operating well since their introduction in July.

"A technical fault was identified on one of the trains on Thursday, which Hitachi is now investigating.

"We are sorry to any customers whose journey was disrupted as a result of this.

"As a precaution, while Hitachi carries out further testing, we are restricting the use of class 385 trains."

 

[GaryMcEwan]

BBC News has published an article giving no information at all about what the fault is.

STV News done a report tonight stating that Scotrail had said that it was a break fault and that the 3 sets that are in service have been pulled.

 

[385001]

Here is Alastair Dalton's latest article. Saves anyone negotiating the Scotsman's horrific website.

The basic article is pretty similar from earlier versions but now includes quotes from Transport Scotland and a couple of politicians.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...ins-withdrawn-over-defective-brakes-1-4810373

ScotRail has today taken its brand new fleet of electric trains out of service as a "precaution" over defective brakes, The Scotsman can reveal.

The move caused a shortage of carriages on dozens of trains on the main Edinburgh-Glasgow line and other routes today.

It was triggered by one of the class 385 trains suffering a brake fault on the line at Winchburgh yesterday, which blocked the line and caused significant disruption.

ScotRail admitted it was the latest of a series of similar problems to have hit the trains since last month - just two months after being introduced.

Six of the fleet of 70 Japanese-designed Hitachi trains have been running on the line and on the North Berwick-Edinburgh route.

ScotRail said some of its services had fewer carriages than normal on the main Edinburgh-Glasgow line via Falkirk High route this morning as a result.

More than 30 trains on the route will run with a reduced number of coaches today, including some cut from seven to three.

Many trains on North Berwick line ran with just three carriages - half the normal number.

A rail source said of a previous incident last month: “The train almost overshot Falkirk High, due to ‘very poor brakes’ after investigation by Hitachi.

“In the rear three carriages, a computer isolated all the brakes for no apparent reason, so only the front four carriages were braking.”

ScotRail and Hitachi have provided no details of the incidents.

The train operator said: "Hitachi is investigating the cause of the technical fault, but there is nothing to suggest it was a software problem."

However, it denied it related to slippery tracks caused by leaves.

ScotRail chief operating officer Angus Thom said the trains had been taken out of passenger service while the fault was investigated.

He said: “As a precaution, while Hitachi carries out further testing, we are restricting the use of class 385 trains.

“We are sorry to any customers whose journey was disrupted as a result of this.”

A ScotRail spokesman said last night: “The train in question today is heading to [Edinburgh depot] Craigentinny for testing.

“It caused some delays and cancellations earlier in the day.

“There were a small number of cancellations in September caused by the fault.

“All trains have normal braking and secondary braking to keep people safe.”

The first train in the fleet entered service in July, ten months late, after a series of problems including the driver's windscreen, which had to replaced because it distorted the view of signals at night.

There were also delays to the electrification of the main Edinburgh-Glasgow line.

The setback follows ScotRail admitting that another fleet of trains being drafted in to provide more seats on inter-city routes such as Aberdeen-Edinburgh will be introduced later this month without being refurbished because of problems at refitting firm Wabtec.

Scottish Liberal Democrat transport spokesperson Mike Rumbles said: “This is yet another let down for Scotland’s rail users.

"Commuters will be dismayed to see the first trains from the new Hitachi fleet, introduced with great fanfare just weeks ago, taken out of action.

“The trains we have already are over-packed, the long-distance trains promised are running late and are set to come into action without being refurbished first, and now the new trains have been taken off the rails too.

"It’s a bleak outlook.

“Passengers just want trains to be reliable and value for money but they are getting neither.

The transport secretary [Michael Matheson] needs to get to grips with the catalogue of errors that hold up our rail network and get ScotRail back on track.”

Scottish Labour transport spokesman Colin Smyth said: "While it is important these defects were identified and dealt with quickly, this is another blow for passengers under this franchise.

"The SNP promised a world-leading service with ScotRail.

"Instead we have seen the problems pile up with trains withdrawn, new models late, services overcrowded, overpriced and routinely behind schedule."

David Sidebottom passenger director of passenger watchdog Transport Focus said: “Passengers will be disappointed to hear this error occurred and want assurances from ScotRail that there is a clear timescale for these trains to be back in service.

"Only then will people feel confident that they are getting the best value fare and a reliable service."

A spokeswoman for the Scottish Government's Transport Scotland agency, which controls the ScotRail franchise, said: "ScotRail has made us aware a technical issue was encountered on one of the new class 385s yesterday.

"As is normal in such circumstances, particularly with new trains, Hitachi will test the entire c385 fleet as a precaution to ensure reliable operation.

"It is imperative this testing is completed quickly, but thoroughly, to ensure the c385s can get back into service as soon as possible."

 

[a_c_skinner]

Why do we need the computer to have the ability to isolate the brakes at all? Surely this would never be needed in normal service and wouldn't it be more sensible to have a big red lever with "Do not Touch" written on it for when the brakes need isolating? Or a key?

 

[snookertam]

This question may be a better fit in the Timetables section, but would it be possible to run the temporary timetable similar to engineering/strike days?

I am referring to the frequency reduced to every 30 minutes departing Glasgow Queen Street at xx:00 and xx:30 calling at Croy, Falkirk High, Polmont, Linlithgow, Haymarket, and Edinburgh Waverley, with the departures from Waverley being at xx:15 and xx:45. The trains could run as 365s all coupled up, which would require 8 out of 10 365s, and maybe 2 x 380s if I have done the maths correctly.

If they were forced into that then Abellio would lose the franchise at the first opportunity. It would be disastrous for all involved and result in incredibly bad publicity.

 

[Highlandspring]

Why do we need the computer to have the ability to isolate the brakes at all? Surely this would never be needed in normal service and wouldn't it be more sensible to have a big red lever with "Do not Touch" written on it for when the brakes need isolating? Or a key?

You're making lots of assumptions there which aren't based on any factual information.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Sorry, it was a rhetorical way of asking why a computer isolating the brakes was ever needed as a possibility, which to a layman seems to be asking for trouble. The reportage says that is the issue.

 

[AlexNL]

As everything is driven by software these days, computers must have full control over the brakes as well (known as drive-by-wire, analogous to fly-by-wire).

In Train Simulator, the originally released version of the Bombardier TALENT 2 train had a similar issue. When driving in multiple, only the front set's brakes would apply. It took Dovetail Games more than a year to fix the issue... hopefully Hitachi can fix it quicker than that.

 

[Sirius]

I did wonder why every train I saw on that line seemed to be a 365 today. Hopefully something they can resolve soon.

 

[alangla]

Surely brake-by-wire with no direct control of the wheel brakes isn't a new thing - 1990s units with blended rheo/regen brakes would have had it, wouldn't they?
In most of the pics I've seen of modern unit cabs there's a big red stop button that presumably dumps the air, I assume the 385 has this?