ScotRail DOO dispute discussion

[Shaw S Hunter]

And in any case this Scotrail "solution" is exactly the method of operation used by Southern on Electrostars pretty much since their introduction to service so comfortably more than 10 years already!

 

[hwl]

Being cynical but probably not. The Dft are probably seething that Transport Scotland have allowed this solution whist they want TOCs to go further towards DOO (my opinion based on the Southern dispute)

This is step 1 (getting to old southern operating practice), the next step in the next franchise is going to new Southern operating practice. No need to rush in SR's case.

 

[sng7]

Being cynical but probably not. The Dft are probably seething that Transport Scotland have allowed this solution whist they want TOCs to go further towards DOO (my opinion based on the Southern dispute)

In any case with transport being a devolved matter Transport Scotland wouldn't care what the DFT wants anyway, why would it push this dispute on further for no reason useful to them.

 

[highdyke]

The arrangement also means that trains already built in Japan as part of the £375 million contract will have to be retro-fitted with door panels enabling conductors to operate the doors, while design specifications for those due to enter the production line will also have to be altered.

John McCormick, chairman of the Scottish Association for Public Transport, said: "It just sounds like a bodge. Our view has always been that the union has got to accept that things move on and stop living in the steam age.

"The idea that trains with ticket examiners instead of conductors are more dangerous is a red herring."

The announcement comes after six weeks of negotiations between ScotRail and RMT, following a series of walkouts by conductors during the summer in protest over the extension of "driver-only" operations.

RMT says the practice - where drivers, not conductors, release the doors - increases the risk of passengers being trapped in doors or falling, but industry watchdogs insist there is no evidence to support the claim.

David Prescott, an independent rail consultant who previously worked at both ScotRail and Transport Scotland, said: "It's a real mess - ScotRail chickened out, but we knew it was coming.

"It's a fudge which means they will have to foot the bill to recruit and train a load of new conductors and there's probably going to be a stonking great bill from Hitachi to add in the door panels at such a late stage.

"You've also got to wonder what this means for the 42 minute target journey time. It was always tight, but we know conductor operations add valuable seconds to the dwell time at stations, so is that still going to be achievable?"

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...rs_closing_doors___and_drivers_opening_them/?

 

[Carlisle]

This is step 1 (getting to old southern operating practice), the next step in the next franchise is going to new Southern operating practice. No need to rush in SR's case.

If that's true it's also virtually identical to the allready decades old pendilino dispatch process , it sounds like a complete cave in by Scotrail management, the union can give themselves a big pat on the back , clearly in this case they've won fair and square

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Will it mean a part re-wire or is the wiring already in place for guards panels with the panels currently blanked off?

 

[Dave1987]

ScotRail = Not in dispute, staff happy, unions happy, staff morale good and willing to help company, passengers get good service.

Southern = Still in major dispute, staff very unhappy, unions very very unhappy, staff morale non existent and working to rule, passengers getting terrible service.

Hmmm wonder which company has acted best?

 

[Carlisle]

Hmmm wonder which company has acted best?

Neither company , Southerns deficiencies are well known whlst Scotrail have just conviently brushed any change under the carpet for some one else to address at a later date

 

[craigybagel]

Neither company , Southerns deficiencies are well known whlst Scotrail have just conviently brushed any change under the carpet for some one else to address at a later date

But why does it need changing at a later date? This is a perfectly reasonable compromise where both sides have made gains.

 

[Carlisle]

But why does it need changing at a later date? This is a perfectly reasonable compromise where both sides have made gains.

Times change and technology moves on, holding back progress on the railway predominantly by militant industrial action won't ultimately do the industry any favours

 

[Mintona]

Times change and technology moves on, holding back progress on the railway predominantly by militant industrial action won't ultimately do the industry any favours

Just a hunch, but I reckon the passengers stuck on a couple of trains in a tunnel near Watford a few days ago probably appreciated 2 extra members of staff on hand. Probably meant the drivers sorted evacuation and communications, and the guards sorted passenger comfort and wellbeing.

I imagine in your eyes it would've been much better to lump all that on the driver.

 

[Carlisle]

Just a hunch, but I reckon the passengers stuck on a couple of trains in a tunnel near Watford a few days ago probably appreciated 2 extra members of staff on hand. Probably meant the drivers sorted evacuation and communications, and the guards sorted passenger comfort and wellbeing.

I imagine in your eyes it would've been much better to lump all that on the driver.

Scotrail agreed weeks ago to run the trains with a second person, some posters praised the RMT for being reasonable and giving ground on dispatch and urged Southern to sign up to a similar deal which we now know in reality is identical to their long established operating method on guarded electric services anyway

 

[380101]

Will it mean a part re-wire or is the wiring already in place for guards panels with the panels currently blanked off?

The wiring was already in place. I also imagine that the GOP panels had been designed and will be very easily fitted.

 

[craigybagel]

Times change and technology moves on, holding back progress on the railway predominantly by militant industrial action won't ultimately do the industry any favours

And what progress exactly is being held back here?

 

[AlterEgo]

And what progress exactly is being held back here?

You were asking why it might need to be changed in the future.

 

[Don King]

And what progress exactly is being held back here?

Exactly.

There is no progress. We are told technology has made guards and dispatchers irrelevant. In that case then the whole dispatch process should be automated. Instead the progress is to make the driver liable for passengers on platforms and on the trains - thus adding to his duties and increasing the risk of him committing operational errors, caused by distraction, abuse and assault - of which the ultimate cost could be death and imprisonment. Dumping the duties from platform dispatchers and guards onto drivers is overloading one person. It is not "technology" else there would be no additional duties for the driver. Getting rid of the guard has about as much to do with technology as getting rid of the doorman from pubs, and expecting the barman to deal with everything single handedly.

Personally I'd love to see all the DOO lovers either get laid off, or forced to take on the work of other people - which if they get wrong should see them banged up in prison - harsh - well that's what you are advocating.

And incidentally this solution as far as I can see, seems reasonable - works perfectly well on Virgin no less.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is not "technology" else there would be no additional duties for the driver.

It is technology - quality cameras meaning the driver can do it safely. Allegedly.

Getting rid of the guard has about as much to do with technology as getting rid of the doorman from pubs, and expecting the barman to deal with everything single handedly.

Only rough pubs/areas have doormen, so while I see your point it isn't a good example.

 

[Blindtraveler]

None that I can see. As a passenger, may I asj this? If the guard is busy selling a ticket and the train arrives at a station, could he or she complete the transaction knowing doors are opem and pax bording and alighting before rushing to the nearest panel for dispatch and departure? If so, why are there so many fears of the 42 minute journeytime on the E and G not being doable?
If I have guessed right, its a win for all. The punter gets their ticket, the train is dispatched safely and doors are opened without delay.

 

[Don King]

It is technology - quality cameras meaning the driver can do it safely. Allegedly.

Only rough pubs/areas have doormen, so while I see your point it isn't a good example.

So they are taking on extra work... which if they screw up leads to death / jail, and is a distration to their duties. Technology should have automated it. It is not technology at all.


Plenty of normal pubs have doormen come Friday and Saturday night... around the same times the trains are full of cord pullers, drug abusers, drunks, people jumping on the side of trains, threatening drivers and whatnot...

 

[ainsworth74]

We already have a thread for discussing the rights and wrong of DOO and we don't need another.

As it appears that this dispute is at an end this thread is therefore locked. If the agreement falls through at some stage then consideration will be given to reopening the thread for further discussion. Please report this post if that is the case so that the Staff Team can be made aware.