Scotrail fleet procurement competition - Class 156, 318 & 320 replacements

[jw]

Approval has also been given hold a procurement competition to identify a preferred manufacturer and financier for new suburban trains to operate decarbonised rail passenger services on the routes covered by East Kilbride, Fife and Borders routes, replacing 42 Class 156 trains and to replace the 55 Class 318 and 320 trains operating in the Strathclyde area.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/news...ish-government-investment-in-decarbonisation/

Looks like total replacement of the Class 318 & 320 fleet, with some additional EMUs/Battery-EMUs for the Fife Circle, Borders route and East Kilbride line.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

https://www.transport.gov.scot/news...ish-government-investment-in-decarbonisation/

Looks like total replacement of the Class 318 & 320 fleet, with some additional EMUs/Battery-EMUs for the Fife Circle, Borders route and East Kilbride line.

I’d say that was well timed. The three fleets, maybe less so the 156s, are in very nice condition but will be very old and rather tired in three or four years time.

 

[Fuzzytop]

I thought the Class 318s had just started going in for scheduled overhauls! Although given the protracted procurement and delivery of new fleets in Scotland and elsewhere, perhaps they'll be coming up for their next overhaul by the time a new fleet arrives to replace them.

 

[Class360/1]

Not surprising for the 318 and 156 replacements. The 318’s are ageing and the 156’s are due to become life expired very soon, according to RAIL.

Kind of surprised about the 320’s; they still have a decade left in them.

Off topic but could 321 renatus’ step in for the 318’s?

 

[JonathanH]

Kind of surprised about the 320’s; they still have a decade left in them.

They have the misfortune to work with 318s which you suggest are ageing. To all intents and purposes the 318s and 320s are one fleet - either the 318s work longer or the 320s work shorter.

 

[DanNCL]

Not surprising for the 318 and 156 replacements. The 318’s are ageing and the 156’s are due to become life expired very soon, according to RAIL.

Kind of surprised about the 320’s; they still have a decade left in them.

Off topic but could 321 renatus’ step in for the 318’s?

There's only actually 4 years difference between the 318s and 320s. First 318 entered service in 1986, first 320 in 1990.

 

[Class360/1]

They have the misfortune to work with 318s which you suggest are ageing. To all intents and purposes the 318s and 320s are one fleet - either the 318s work longer or the 320s work shorter.

There's only actually 4 years difference between the 318s and 320s. First 318 entered service in 1986, first 320 in 1990.

Thanks for the information. Forgot they were classed as one fleet!

 

[Peter0124]

Hope the 318/320 dont leave for atleast another 5 years because they are the character of the Argyle/North Electrics with them open windows.

 

[TrainTrackJack]

Although it wouldn't be enough trainsets (37), the 350/2s coming off lease soon would be ideal - 2+3 seating, built by Siemens so would be able to be maintained alongside the 380s, and 100mph maximum speed (potentially with conversion to bi mode battery operation as well).

And the major one, new trains to be procured.

 

[JonathanH]

the 350/2s coming off lease soon would be ideal

Small matter of being 4-coach rather than 3-coach or 6-coach suggests they might not be ideal.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Small matter of being 4-coach rather than 3-coach or 6-coach suggests they might not be ideal.

A good chunk of the current 320s used to be four car…

 

[JonathanH]

A good chunk of the current 320s used to be four car…

Arguably the 12 321s involved lost their fourth car at a later point in their usefulness than the 350/2s would if converted now.

 

[D365]

A good chunk of the current 320s used to be four car…

Which is a completely different kettle of fish.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Which is a completely different kettle of fish.

Sure it is, but I’m just responding to the suggestion that four carriage formations are point blank an issue.

 

[Snow1964]

There's only actually 4 years difference between the 318s and 320s. First 318 entered service in 1986, first 320 in 1990.

They are trying to replace historic small batches, but Similar problem happened with replacing the 314s from 1979, replacement was effectively part of class 385 order.

With Scotland rolling out various small electrification schemes it could easily be replacement of 318s, then some for extra electrified services, then more of them to replace 320s, a process which could take 2 or 3 years anyway

The 156s were built between the 318s and 320s. Whilst replacing the ones used on fringes of electrification scheme could be low carbon, I am struggling to see anything but a modern diesel replacement for the long remote rural lines. But perhaps the solution is a bi-mode variant of the EMU for part of the order.

 

[route101]

They are trying to replace historic small batches, but Similar problem happened with replacing the 314s from 1979, replacement was effectively part of class 385 order.

With Scotland rolling out various small electrification schemes it could easily be replacement of 318s, then some for extra electrified services, then more of them to replace 320s, a process which could take 2 or 3 years anyway

The 156s were built between the 318s and 320s. Whilst replacing the ones used on fringes of electrification scheme could be low carbon, I am struggling to see anything but a modern diesel replacement for the long remote rural lines. But perhaps the solution is a bi-mode variant of the EMU for part of the order.

The Stadler bimodes are one option I reckon.

 

[Fuzzytop]

Since this procurement is to serve Fife and the Borders, and no mention has been made of replacing 158s and 170s, one can only presume the 158s will be displaced to the rural routes. That makes sense, so they can go for suburban-type interiors.

 

[DanNCL]

Since this procurement is to serve Fife and the Borders, and no mention has been made of replacing 158s and 170s, one can only presume the 158s will be displaced to the rural routes. That makes sense, so they can go for suburban-type interiors.

158s won’t be an option for Dumfries.

 

[Peter0124]

158s won’t be an option for Dumfries.

What'll use the Dumfries line when the 156s go?

 

[Snow1964]

Since this procurement is to serve Fife and the Borders, and no mention has been made of replacing 158s and 170s, one can only presume the 158s will be displaced to the rural routes. That makes sense, so they can go for suburban-type interiors.

I think Scotrail have some of the oldest 158s
They are same age as the 320s at 32 years

Would be odd to decide to replace both the 318s and 320s due to the fact they are only 4 years different in age, and perform similar job, but then not replace both the 156s and 158s which are only 2 years different in age if the aim is to have a standard mid 2020s fleet to replace multiple types

 

[gnolife]

158s won’t be an option for Dumfries.

I'm curious - is there some completely unfixable obstruction on that line?

 

[DannyMich2018]

I think Scotrail have some of the oldest 158s
They are same age as the 320s at 32 years

Would be odd to decide to replace both the 318s and 320s due to the fact they are only 4 years different in age, and perform similar job, but then not replace both the 156s and 158s which are only 2 years different in age if the aim is to have a standard mid 2020s fleet to replace multiple types

Couldn't agree more.

Yes the Scottish 158s are some of the oldest, dating from 1990 so already 32 years old now so makes sense to replace all 156, 158, 318 and 320 together. By which time new trains enter service they'll all be 35+ years old with 318s closer to 40.

 

[DanNCL]

What'll use the Dumfries line when the 156s go?

I'm curious - is there some completely unfixable obstruction on that line?

Clearance issues is all I know, hopefully someone who knows more on the subject than I do will be able to explain in more detail, and answer the question as to if it’s fixable or not.

 

[AlistairCowell]

Couldn't agree more.

Yes the Scottish 158s are some of the oldest, dating from 1990 so already 32 years old now so makes sense to replace all 156, 158, 318 and 320 together. By which time new trains enter service they'll all be 35+ years old with 318s closer to 40.

This means that the Class 153 'Explorer' carriages would have to go too.
Might give Class 158s another 10 years on the West Highland Line then get replaced with battery or hydrogen units.

 

[Sprinter156]

There's a recent report from Transport Scotland about electricity and hydrogen demand forecasts, it also sets out "rail scenarios" and timelines for electrification and withdrawal/cascading of diesel trains.

The plan is to transfer 158's to SW scotland by 2027.

https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/51571/updated-zero-emission-energy-for-transport-forecasts-national-demand-forecasts-for-electricity-and-hydrogen.pdf

 

[Strathclyder]

Not that important in the grand scheme, but there are 12 ex-Class 321s (the 320/4s) compared to the 22 original 320/3s.

This means that the Class 153 'Explorer' carriages would have to go too.
Might give Class 158s another 10 years on the West Highland Line then get replaced with battery or hydrogen units.

Wasn't the 158's use on the West Highland Line ruled out due to clearance/obstruction issues a few years back? Seem to remember there being a whole thread on the subject here. Unless you meant 156s here...

Sure it is, but I’m just responding to the suggestion that four carriage formations are point blank an issue.

Not so much four carriage formations per-se that seem to be the key issue as far as I can work out, but carriage lengths. Yes, four-car 380s were used on special Commonwealth Games shuttles between Dalmarnock & Garscadden on the Argyle Line back in 2014, but their carriage lengths (at least 12-13ft longer than the equivalents on the 318s/320s) rule out their use on significant portions of the Argyle/North Clyde Lines.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if a pure AC derivative of the Desiro City family or a Stadler entry end up being the strongest contenders for the 318/320 replacement aspect of this compitition.

 

[InOban]

Not that important in the grand scheme, but there are 12 ex-Class 321s (the 320/4s) compared to the 22 original 320/3s.


Wasn't the 158's use on the West Highland Line ruled out due to clearance/obstruction issues a few years back? Seem to remember there being a whole thread on the subject here. Unless you meant 156s here...


Not so much four carriage formations per-se that seem to be the key issue as far as I can work out, but carriage lengths. Yes, four-car 380s were used on special Commonwealth Games shuttles between Dalmarnock & Garscadden on the Argyle Line back in 2014, but their carriage lengths (at least 12-13ft longer than the equivalents on the 318s/320s) rule out their use on significant portions of the Argyle/North Clyde Lines.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if a pure AC derivative of the Desiro City family or a Stadler entry end up being the strongest contenders for the 318/320 replacement aspect of this compitition.

Clearance work was required to allow the 153s on tothe WHL. AIUI this work also cleared the route for 158s. I'm not sure if the work was completed to FW and Mallaig

 

[Strathclyder]

Clearance work was required to allow the 153s on tothe WHL. AIUI this work also cleared the route for 158s. I'm not sure if the work was completed to FW and Mallaig

Oh right, I really should have twigged that, as both the 153s and 158s have plug doors. Cheers.

 

[Watershed]

Oh right, I really should have twigged that, as both the 153s and 158s have sliding plug doors. Cheers.

The 158s aren't sliding, they are effectively hinged.

 

[Strathclyder]

The 158s aren't sliding, they are effectively hinged.

Original post edited, cheers. Being half-awake ain't helping me at all lol