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Scotrail fleet procurement competition - Class 156, 318 & 320 replacements

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Nicholas Lewis

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Don't forget that the range of these batteries drops rapidly with lower temperatures.Anyone who owns or hires a hybrid,plugin or ev can tell you it is effectively only about 2/3 the range,once the ambient temperature is below -10C, which it most certainly will be for a good deal of scotland in the midst of winter.

BEMU may not be the panacea that it's being made out to be.
This is one of many considerations that BEMU operators need to consider along with how much reserve do you plan for to cover for the job being stopped for instance on a hot day. Also modern high energy density batteries maximise life by holding the state of charge between 20-80%. Ultimately how far you can go depends on how many watt hours of battery capacity you can hang under the underframe then derated by the factors above will determine how far you can get before you need to recharge.
 
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och aye

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Is there an advantage to procure trains from an existing fleet manufacturer i.e. Siemens, Hitachi, Alstom (formerly Bombardier) or could a new supplier like Stadler, Talgo or CAF have a chance?

I suppose one curveball with Talgo is they could dangle the carrot on the stick of promising to build the train manufacturing facility in Longannet. It'll certainly be interesting to see if it will be a winner takes all, or a split order between different manufacturers.
 

hooverboy

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This is one of many considerations that BEMU operators need to consider along with how much reserve do you plan for to cover for the job being stopped for instance on a hot day. Also modern high energy density batteries maximise life by holding the state of charge between 20-80%. Ultimately how far you can go depends on how many watt hours of battery capacity you can hang under the underframe then derated by the factors above will determine how far you can get before you need to recharge.
There's a lot of factors in play when it comes to battery powered.
Battery capacity is just one variable, battery composition is another factor.Then there's minimising the potentail losses throug battery management software/preheat systems, use of heat pumps instead of direct electrically powered heating systems, drag, rolling resistance,inherent losses of traction motors,efficiency of regen brakes and so on.
With a battery that is absolutely identical in capacity in kWh,all of those variables can easily add(or reduce) expected range another 10-20%.
 
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334s onto Gourock and Wemyss Bay may be a good shout. They worked fine on that route before. If you transfer all of them over there, you could possibly run most if not all services as 6 car. Would also mean you can move the 380s for strengthening elsewhere. Maybe put them on the Lanark services to free up some 385s too.
That would have been a comeback if the 334s return to the Inverclyde Line :D
 

gingertom

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Don't forget that the range of these batteries drops rapidly with lower temperatures.Anyone who owns or hires a hybrid,plugin or ev can tell you it is effectively only about 2/3 the range,once the ambient temperature is below -10C, which it most certainly will be for a good deal of scotland in the midst of winter.

BEMU may not be the panacea that it's being made out to be.
this is a valid point. Taking it a stage further, passengers need to be kept warm in winter and cool in summer- HVAC systems take quite a bit of power. Also, battery drain is function of the unit's speed and whether gradients are to be overcome. It is one thing trundling up to East Kilbride stopping all stations at a maximum speed of 40mph, compared to the ascent to Bowshank tunnel at 80mph, or worse, the climb to Slochd summit. One would hope stretches of OLE would be strategically sited to mitigate.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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this is a valid point. Taking it a stage further, passengers need to be kept warm in winter and cool in summer- HVAC systems take quite a bit of power. Also, battery drain is function of the unit's speed and whether gradients are to be overcome. It is one thing trundling up to East Kilbride stopping all stations at a maximum speed of 40mph, compared to the ascent to Bowshank tunnel at 80mph, or worse, the climb to Slochd summit. One would hope stretches of OLE would be strategically sited to mitigate.
One thing BEMUS have in their favour is the ability to recuperate energy during braking to part recharge the batteries. In reality you should be able to recover 60-70% of the energy used in accelerating the train mass in the first place although if your trying to run metro style driving with high braking rates the braking rate from the motors can often be insufficient at higher speeds so needs some support from friction braking initially until the motors reach the flat part of power/torque curve. So to maximise recovery of energy you have to adapt how you brake.

On HVAC if a fully electric loses power from the OLE/3rd Rail those trains lose cooling straight away I believe although ventilation fans have to run for a period of time so BEMUS would only have to match current standards.
 

snowball

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On HVAC if a fully electric loses power from the OLE/3rd Rail those trains lose cooling straight away I believe although ventilation fans have to run for a period of time so BEMUS would only have to match current standards.
HVAC is one of those abbreviations like S&C. The first time I saw it I tried to make sense of it as High Voltage Alternating Current (as it's being used here) but the author was using it to mean Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning (which is also part of this discussion).
 

Nicholas Lewis

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HVAC is one of those abbreviations like S&C. The first time I saw it I tried to make sense of it as High Voltage Alternating Current (as it's being used here) but the author was using it to mean Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning (which is also part of this discussion).
No i meant Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning as well and particularly was saying a BEMU wouldn't need to do comply with any different standards than any other passenger train.
 

NotATrainspott

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A fleet rejig hasn’t taken place in over ten years but I think it may be time to reevaluate which fleet Scotrail have and where the units would be best suited.

Any modern stock (ie Class 334>) is un-suitable for ex-Class 314 work. The overheating is an obvious issue and once the 318s and 320s go there will be no other suitable units unless they have a mix of Class 380s and 385s being constantly swapped out. What they need is a more suburban style unit like the AT100 exclusively for these shorter workings. This will free up more 380s and 385s.

The Class 334s are still fairly modern units and there are 40 of them so it makes it more tricky to re-appoint them. The only solution would be to fully replace the 318s/320s with new units and have them run alongside the 334s on Argyle and North Clyde Line services. The A-B line could see new stock also (preferably with tables) and have the 334s predominantly used between Balloch-Airdrie/Springburn. I wish the 334s were adapted to 2x2 seating rather than the horrendous 3x3 or 3x2.

It would be ideal if the 334s could be cascaded elsewhere even replacing the 156s until they retire. It means the North Clyde and Argyle line services would have a more uniform fleet and would only ever need replaced in one big order but that would be impossible.

The Glasgow Metro is the other big thing on the horizon. If it will take over some of the ex-314-operated Strathclyde electrics routes, then there's not much point buying a fleet designed for them. It made sense to include their replacements in the wider EGIP order and it'll probably make sense to do the same for this BEMU order too. There is plenty of need for 385-alike units in Scotland in a fully electrified future, so they're unlikely to go to waste. In principle a 385 or similar could be made to run any route a 170 could, which means everything from the Anniesland stopper (modulo traction cooling issues) up to a run to Aberdeen or Inverness.

I have a feeling that the benefits of a unified 3x23m Scottish EMU on the North Clyde network will outweigh the loss of interoperability with the Argyle line. The 334s do just fine on Argyle line routes and pose no problems for the 6x20m island platforms in the core. There are 40 of them and their replacement may also be tied up with longer-term plans for the Glasgow Metro network.

Is there an advantage to procure trains from an existing fleet manufacturer i.e. Siemens, Hitachi, Alstom (formerly Bombardier) or could a new supplier like Stadler, Talgo or CAF have a chance?

I suppose one curveball with Talgo is they could dangle the carrot on the stick of promising to build the train manufacturing facility in Longannet. It'll certainly be interesting to see if it will be a winner takes all, or a split order between different manufacturers.

It has to go out to competitive public tender. It's possible to write tenders that only one company can possibly win in reality, but that can be difficult legally. While I'm pretty sure Hitachi will win with a BEMU derivative of the 385, it's no bad thing if another manufacturer can come up with a viable alternative product.

this is a valid point. Taking it a stage further, passengers need to be kept warm in winter and cool in summer- HVAC systems take quite a bit of power. Also, battery drain is function of the unit's speed and whether gradients are to be overcome. It is one thing trundling up to East Kilbride stopping all stations at a maximum speed of 40mph, compared to the ascent to Bowshank tunnel at 80mph, or worse, the climb to Slochd summit. One would hope stretches of OLE would be strategically sited to mitigate.

BEMUs will only be rolled out on routes where they are confident that they can fulfil the whole diagram in any sensible conditions. The plan for discontinuous electrification means that sections of OHLE will be installed across the network to maximise the possible use of BEMUs. The lack of connection between these means they have to start around grid connection points, which may or may not correlate with high-power sections of track. If a BEMU will have plenty of charge to get up Slochd in the middle of winter, it doesn't really matter that overhead power is only available on relatively easy track before and after.
 

gingertom

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The Glasgow Metro is the other big thing on the horizon. If it will take over some of the ex-314-operated Strathclyde electrics routes, then there's not much point buying a fleet designed for them. It made sense to include their replacements in the wider EGIP order and it'll probably make sense to do the same for this BEMU order too. There is plenty of need for 385-alike units in Scotland in a fully electrified future, so they're unlikely to go to waste. In principle a 385 or similar could be made to run any route a 170 could, which means everything from the Anniesland stopper (modulo traction cooling issues) up to a run to Aberdeen or Inverness.

I have a feeling that the benefits of a unified 3x23m Scottish EMU on the North Clyde network will outweigh the loss of interoperability with the Argyle line. The 334s do just fine on Argyle line routes and pose no problems for the 6x20m island platforms in the core. There are 40 of them and their replacement may also be tied up with longer-term plans for the Glasgow Metro network.



It has to go out to competitive public tender. It's possible to write tenders that only one company can possibly win in reality, but that can be difficult legally. While I'm pretty sure Hitachi will win with a BEMU derivative of the 385, it's no bad thing if another manufacturer can come up with a viable alternative product.



BEMUs will only be rolled out on routes where they are confident that they can fulfil the whole diagram in any sensible conditions. The plan for discontinuous electrification means that sections of OHLE will be installed across the network to maximise the possible use of BEMUs. The lack of connection between these means they have to start around grid connection points, which may or may not correlate with high-power sections of track. If a BEMU will have plenty of charge to get up Slochd in the middle of winter, it doesn't really matter that overhead power is only available on relatively easy track before and after.
The national grid lines are very close to Slochd summit and the pylons thread their way through Drumochter pass alongside the railway and the A9, quite close to the hydro power station at Tummel Bridge- ideal. You'd think it had been planned....
 

snowball

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The national grid lines are very close to Slochd summit and the pylons thread their way through Drumochter pass alongside the railway and the A9, quite close to the hydro power station at Tummel Bridge- ideal. You'd think it had been planned....
According to two slides in one of the presentations recently discussed elsewhere (see post #259 in this thread), feeder stations between Perth and Inverness will be at Faskally and Avielochan. The latter is about 2 miles north of Aviemore and appears from the OS map not to be near any power lines, so I think they're using the name to refer to a point about 2 miles further north and about 2 miles south of Carrbridge.
 

JModulo

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I'm curious - is there some completely unfixable obstruction on that line?
They are cleared but only for empty stock movements. Issue is with platform edges and the doors. Need to bare in mind this route has been solid 156s since their introduction, and mk1s before that.
 

mcmad

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Anything is fixable if TS want to spend enough cash. Is the WHL cleared for 158s yet?
 
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