Scotrail franchise future?

[ainsworth74]

You would think that they would be operated by Scottish Office Directly Operated Railways surely?

I suppose they would, I wonder if they'd transfer steam locomotives from their home railway? We could see steam hauled service trains once again!

It would be Transport ScotRail

I think you may have missed the joke (though in all seriousness I agree that were DOR needed it would be the Transport Scotland equivalent that would step in).

 

[BrianTheLion]

A few years ago the Glasgow to Carlisle service was:

• Glasgow - Carlisle - Manchester (operated by Virgin Cross Country, for a long time extending to Birmingham etc too)
• Glasgow - Carlisle - Birmingham (operated by Virgin Cross Country, for a long time extending to Plymouth etc too)
• Glasgow - Carlisle - London (operated by Virgin West Coast)

Now, for a few months at least its going to be

• Glasgow - Carlisle - Manchester (operated by First TPE)
• Glasgow - Carlisle - Birmingham (operated by First West Coast)
• Glasgow - Carlisle - London (operated by First West Coast)

If it wasn't a problem for Virgin to run these routes then I can't see it being a problem for First to run these routes

(I'm ignoring the slow 156s via the GSW because they aren't intended for Glasgow to Carlisle trips)

Did Virgin also run Scotrail at the time?

 

[tbtc]

Did Virgin also run Scotrail at the time?

No, clearly they didn't, but the fact that there's a Scotrail 156 (every few hours) taking roughly 2h20 is pretty irrelevant compared to the 185s/ Voyagers/ Pendolini doing the journey in roughly 1h10.

How come people are getting so excited about Glasgow - Carlisle being a significant market that needs competition when clearly there's no competition on routes like London - Swindon/ Oxford/ Northampton/ Manchester/ Ipswich? Storm in a tea cup.

 

[BrianTheLion]

No, clearly they didn't, but the fact that there's a Scotrail 156 (every few hours) taking roughly 2h20 is pretty irrelevant compared to the 185s/ Voyagers/ Pendolini doing the journey in roughly 1h10.

How come people are getting so excited about Glasgow - Carlisle being a significant market that needs competition when clearly there's no competition on routes like London - Swindon/ Oxford/ Northampton/ Manchester/ Ipswich? Storm in a tea cup.

Swindon - population 209,000
Oxford - population 151,900
Northampton - population 212,100
Manchester - population 503,000
Ipswich - population 138,718

GLASGOW - 598,830

The five places you mentioned are all less populated than one of britains largest cities....

My argument isnt to do with direct trains either... London to Manchester for example could be done via WCML to Stafford then XC from Stafford to Manchester...

In Scotland unless you want to travel via Edinburgh & Newcastle adding hours onto your journey the only option you will have is to use one of the three franchises ran by First...

I personally dont care who runs what franchise but to allow one company to effectively own all services ran on a particular part of the WCML is in my opinion not in the interests of the paying public... Living on the West Coast and with Scotrail & TPE in the equation then each time someone heads south over the border they are lining the pockets of First... its not just about Glasgow - London...

 

[tbtc]

Swindon - population 209,000
Oxford - population 151,900
Northampton - population 212,100
Manchester - population 503,000
Ipswich - population 138,718

GLASGOW - 598,830

The five places you mentioned are all less populated than one of britains largest cities....

Yes, and Carlisle has a population of 71,773 according to Wiki.

The question is whether the passenger volumes from Glasgow to Carlisle are in the same ball park as something like London to Oxford.

Glasgow to Carlisle is insignificant even compared to routes that ScotRail have a complete monopoly over (Glasgow to Falkirk, Glasgow to Paisley...) - its really not important.

 

[BrianTheLion]

Yes, and Carlisle has a population of 71,773 according to Wiki.

The question is whether the passenger volumes from Glasgow to Carlisle are in the same ball park as something like London to Oxford.

Glasgow to Carlisle is insignificant even compared to routes that ScotRail have a complete monopoly over (Glasgow to Falkirk, Glasgow to Paisley...) - its really not important.

that argument is pointless, Scotland only has a tenth of the population of England...its obvious passenger numbers are going to be greater between the like of London/Oxford... commuters alone would be enough to beat the Carlisle to Glasgow run...

Like I said earlier, its not just about Glasgow to Carlisle... anyone travelling south down that line to London or Manchester, etc will line the pockets of one company...

 

[tbtc]

that argument is pointless, Scotland only has a tenth of the population of England...its obvious passenger numbers are going to be greater between the like of London/Oxford... commuters alone would be enough to beat the Carlisle to Glasgow run...

Like I said earlier, its not just about Glasgow to Carlisle... anyone travelling south down that line to London or Manchester, etc will line the pockets of one company...

And, as I said, it's apparently okay for one company to have a monopoly of trains from Glasgow to places like Paisley and Falkirk (much bigger markets), so why are you worrying about the much smaller market of Carlisle?

(the franchise map may well change, the TPE franchise ends in two and a half years and you are also "lining Keolis's pockets" when you travel by TPE)

 

[Argosy]

No, clearly they didn't, but the fact that there's a Scotrail 156 (every few hours) taking roughly 2h20 is pretty irrelevant compared to the 185s/ Voyagers/ Pendolini doing the journey in roughly 1h10.

How come people are getting so excited about Glasgow - Carlisle being a significant market that needs competition when clearly there's no competition on routes like London - Swindon/ Oxford/ Northampton/ Manchester/ Ipswich? Storm in a tea cup.

Really? So how would you feel if MML and East Coast were the same operator and thus South Yorkshire to London was no competition. You forget that people are already being denied sensible journey opportunities because of SpotRail and paying a fortune by going 40 miles north to go 100 miles south (Ayr - Glasgow - Carlisle, instead of Ayr - Kilmarnock - Carlisle which is quicker). A bit like someone being forced to go Brighton to Portsmouth .... via London

 

[MCR247]

that argument is pointless, Scotland only has a tenth of the population of England...its obvious passenger numbers are going to be greater between the like of London/Oxford... commuters alone would be enough to beat the Carlisle to Glasgow run...

Then stop going on about it. I mean for gods sake its Glasgow - Carlisle. Its minor
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Really? So how would you feel if MML and East Coast were the same operator and thus South Yorkshire to London was no competition. You forget that people are already being denied sensible journey opportunities because of SpotRail and paying a fortune by going 40 miles north to go 100 miles south (Ayr - Glasgow - Carlisle, instead of Ayr - Kilmarnock - Carlisle which is quicker). A bit like someone being forced to go Brighton to Portsmouth .... via London

Yeah I suppose Glasgow to Carlisle is pretty similar to London - Leeds, Sheffield, Doncaster and the rest.

 

[michael769]

Realistically there is no effective competition for the vast majority of rail travelers in this country. The system is not based around competition for consumers but competition (via franchise subsidies or payments) for taxpayers.

 

[Argosy]

Then stop going on about it. I mean for gods sake its Glasgow - Carlisle. Its minor
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Yeah I suppose Glasgow to Carlisle is pretty similar to London - Leeds, Sheffield, Doncaster and the rest.

Its important if you live here - you don't.

 

[MCR247]

Do you both not think you're making a mountain out of a molehill? So you're saying First should get TPE taken away or they shouldn't have been given WC because they would have a 'monopoly' between Glasgow and Carlisle. With 2 TOCs. Really?

 

[HH]

Its important if you live here

It's important to YOU if you live there. Not the same thing at all.

 

[tbtc]

Really? So how would you feel if MML and East Coast were the same operator and thus South Yorkshire to London was no competition. You forget that people are already being denied sensible journey opportunities because of SpotRail and paying a fortune by going 40 miles north to go 100 miles south (Ayr - Glasgow - Carlisle, instead of Ayr - Kilmarnock - Carlisle which is quicker). A bit like someone being forced to go Brighton to Portsmouth .... via London

Manchester to London is a pretty big market, yet has seen a trebling of services (since privatisation) and plenty cheap fares available. The "monopoly" hasn't stopped this.

I'd have no problem with one company running all services from South Yorkshire to London - there's plenty of competition from National Express/ Megabus/ cars on the M1, so there'd always be cheap fares (especially to fill off peak trains).

Not sure what you mean about Ayr - Carlisle - people can change at Kilmarnock, surely? Not that Ayr - Carlisle has ever been a big market.

 

[MCR247]

Not that Ayr - Carlisle has ever been a big market.

It is if you live there




[Sorry - couldn't resit! :P]

 

[tbtc]

It is if you live there




[Sorry - couldn't resit! :P]

I'm going to stand back and wait for the first thread complaining that its unfair XC have a monopoly on the important Aberdeen - Penzance market

 

[Liam]

I'm going to stand back and wait for the first thread complaining that its unfair XC have a monopoly on the important Aberdeen - Penzance market

But they don't. You can use Scotrail, East Coast and FGW via London, which is often cheaper and quicker.

 

[aylesbury]

A comment in latest issue of Rail by a senior Scottish minister .Its wrong that wholly owned companies of the state are not allowed to bid for Scot Rail.Perhaps the SNP want to set up a nationalised subsidary to run Scot Rail instead of private companies like now.If independance happens I can see this happenning ,a very interesting state of affairs.This could have ramifications for England as well with BR coming back and a Welsh Rail also.With the Saltaire livery appearing on all units this is becoming a reality ,also a Scottish NR would follow as it is a natural progression.If something like the above happens perhaps we will see government train companies running our railways.

 

[tbtc]

But they don't. You can use Scotrail, East Coast and FGW via London, which is often cheaper and quicker.

...and you could use Cross Country and Northern Rail to get from Glasgow to Carlisle (changing at Newcastle) if you had a personal grudge against First.

 

[Liam]

...and you could use Cross Country and Northern Rail to get from Glasgow to Carlisle (changing at Newcastle) if you had a personal grudge against First.

But, unlike Aberdeen-London-Penzance, Glasgow-Newcastle-Carlisle would take much, much longer than the direct route.

In anycase, I don't see any issue with First operating all services between Glasgow and Carlisle.

 

[harz99]

.............. I don't see any issue with First operating all services between Glasgow and Carlisle.

Neither do I; I just live in hope that more trains will stop at Lockerbie (particularly northbound on Saturday evenings) and offer a more balanced service than the current irregular one.

 

[ObservationCar]

...and you could use Cross Country and Northern Rail to get from Glasgow to Carlisle (changing at Newcastle) if you had a personal grudge against First.

If you had a grudge against First and Arriva then just hope for the odd charter, or get a gandy dancer.

 

[route:oxford]

A comment in latest issue of Rail by a senior Scottish minister .Its wrong that wholly owned companies of the state are not allowed to bid for Scot Rail.Perhaps the SNP want to set up a nationalised subsidary to run Scot Rail instead of private companies like now.If independance happens I can see this happenning ,a very interesting state of affairs.This could have ramifications for England as well with BR coming back and a Welsh Rail also.With the Saltaire livery appearing on all units this is becoming a reality ,also a Scottish NR would follow as it is a natural progression.If something like the above happens perhaps we will see government train companies running our railways.

I'm sure that's not true. I can't see any reason why DB Regio would not be permitted to bid for Scotrail.

 

[clc]

I'm sure that's not true. I can't see any reason why DB Regio would not be permitted to bid for Scotrail.

State-owned companies from other countries can operate rail services in Scotland while home-based public bodies cannot.

 

[Argosy]

Manchester to London is a pretty big market, yet has seen a trebling of services (since privatisation) and plenty cheap fares available. The "monopoly" hasn't stopped this.

I'd have no problem with one company running all services from South Yorkshire to London - there's plenty of competition from National Express/ Megabus/ cars on the M1, so there'd always be cheap fares (especially to fill off peak trains).

Not sure what you mean about Ayr - Carlisle - people can change at Kilmarnock, surely? Not that Ayr - Carlisle has ever been a big market.

Not saying it is. The point I was making is that already passengers to Carlisle are being forced via Glasgow = higher fares to get to Carlisle instead of being routed by Kilmarnock. If this happens now, you bet your bottom dollar it will continue if First win West Coast. In other words the market is getting distorted. Wouldn't have happened under BR. It is a downside of the privatised railway.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I'm sure that's not true. I can't see any reason why DB Regio would not be permitted to bid for Scotrail.

Who?
DB Arriva surely.
Regio is confined to Germany now.

 

[WatcherZero]

Theyve said this before, when they had the whole 'No English trains permitted in Scotland' transport strategy consultation. The Xenophobic sentiment didnt gain the traction they thought it would with the Scottish public and died a death in the glare of the people who actually use the intercity trains.

 

[CalumCookable]

Theyve said this before, when they had the whole 'No English trains permitted in Scotland' transport strategy consultation. The Xenophobic sentiment didnt gain the traction they thought it would with the Scottish public and died a death in the glare of the people who actually use the intercity trains.

Actually, the idea was to find out if people wanted alternative services. For example, East Coast said that if they didn't have to serve Inverness and Aberdeen, they could provide a half-hourly service between Edinburgh and Newcastle. This might have helped meet local desires for new stations at Reston and East Linton and improved frequency at Dunbar. Also, Aberdeen-Newcastle was identified as an important market and a dedicated service for that route was suggested.

In any case, I don't think all WC/EC/XC trains still having to terminate at Glasgow Central or Edinburgh Waverley - in the central belt, where the majority of Scots live - amounts to a very successful racist policy.

 

[Blindtraveler]

wel whoever gets it has got a lot of fun with many services on the network at or over capacitty and major jobs like the TOCs part of Edinburgh to Glasgow electriffication to deliver.
I still think that if sleapers are to be franchised seperately the GW ooe should join it and share a comon fleat etc.
However, on runs like Fortwilliam there must be cooperation with Scotrail.

 

[Argosy]

wel whoever gets it has got a lot of fun with many services on the network at or over capacitty and major jobs like the TOCs part of Edinburgh to Glasgow electriffication to deliver.
I still think that if sleapers are to be franchised seperately the GW ooe should join it and share a comon fleat etc.
However, on runs like Fortwilliam there must be cooperation with Scotrail.

Would you care to re-type this as I can't figure out what you are saying.