ScotRail HST Introduction - Updates & Discussion

[Northhighland]

Day return to Aberdeen yesterday from Inverness was on double 158s both ways at times of a super off peak ticket. Compared to some recent travelling experiences on the HML and WHL that was positively palatial. Is that a consequence of the Aberdeen Inverness line reopening to through traffic or an indication that more HSTs are out and about each day now so the diesel rolling stock situation is getting somewhat less frantic?

However, I've never known the Inverness - Aberdeen line being so quiet. Could do with more HSTs on this line and making a big fuss about them as there is clearly been a huge drift away during the closure and its going to take time and effort to get people back.

To be honest with all the disruption recently I haven't bothered to use the train to Aberdeen been driving. A lot of colleagues do the same recently. The replacement bus services during the closures were not great, so it was easier to drive. Think many people will take some time to go back to the train, especially if they don't know it is back working again!

 

[GLC]

Saw 3 refurb HSTs today, but all 3 were sitting in depots. 1 in Eastfield, the other 2 at Haymarket. Do they often return to depots between diagrams, or are they just not likely to be running today?

 

[Brissle Girl]

That’s good. Hopefully this uptick in pace will continue and that more shall be delivered.

With the bruvvers at Wabtec due to strike for two weeks in September, I wouldn't bank on it.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-announces-strike-action-at-wabtec-faiveley-uk/

(Sorry, can't obviously cut and paste an extract.)

 

[scotrail158713]

With the bruvvers at Wabtec due to strike for two weeks in September, I wouldn't bank on it.

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-announces-strike-action-at-wabtec-faiveley-uk/

(Sorry, can't obviously cut and paste an extract.)

Well you couldn’t write some parts of this saga

 

[Goldromans]

RMT strike at Wabtec where the HSTs are being refurbished, but kicked off when ScotRail were forced to introduce non-refurbished stock because of delays at Wabtec? Pretty much sums up the current state of the Inter7City programme.

 

[InOban]

Presumably their bruvvers at Hitachi are paid more, which is why so many have jumped there.

 

[BRX]

RMT strike at Wabtec where the HSTs are being refurbished, but kicked off when ScotRail were forced to introduce non-refurbished stock because of delays at Wabtec?

I don't see any contradiction there, unless you are saying the delays are the fault of the workers.

 

[Goldromans]

I don't see any contradiction there, unless you are saying the delays are the fault of the workers.

The current delays: of course not (apart from the lack of them because of the Hitachi defectors). But this strike will only delay the project even further still.

 

[Killingworth]

We have been happy to purchase new rolling stock from manufacturers around the globe.

Some enterprising company in, say, India should have offered to have all the HST units shipped out, stripped, rebuilt and shipped back for half the price.

I've read that RMT page, the foot dominated by links to yet more strikes. The road transport industry has so many advantages.

 

[Highland37]

Yes the road transport industry is a long way ahead in many respects. It is a shame that the railway is often its own worst enemy.

With eight sets now delivered(?), I presume they are mostly in service providing a reliable and better service than the 170s.

 

[CJSwan]

With eight sets now delivered(?), I presume they are mostly in service providing a reliable and better service than the 170s.

Yesterday there was only TWO* refurbished set out and about. Only TWO the day before! There were also a few 158 and 170 replacements in the last couple of days too. And looking at the ScotRail app this morning, there’s a few “3 instead of 4... Seat reservations might not match...”

*I thought it was only one, have since been corrected, and post amended.

 

[Carntyne]

Yesterday there was only ONE refurbished set out and about.

Well that's untrue. 2 were out and about.

 

[CJSwan]

Well that's untrue. 2 were out and about.

Okay, I was just going by a post I saw on Facebook. My apologies.

 

[47271]

I've been provided with a theory for why HST sets are turning up in Waverley from the depot full of litter, it seems like it might be plausible. It came to me in a conversation with another passenger who'd be told by a conductor's granny, you know the sort of thing, so it could be nonsense.

Given that each set is more or less double the length of a 170, there's no leeway for cleaning in the platform if there's a late arrival since they can't double up sets due to their size. So they're sending them off to the depot before the cleaners can get their hands on them.

If this is right then it's a bit disappointing that it wasn't thought through at the original planning stage?

 

[Goldromans]

Considering the total number of HST's with ScotRail, it's shocking how many InterCity services are still 170's, or even 158's(!). Is staff training still the main issue, or is it reliability issues with the HST's?

 

[DannyMich2018]

Considering the total number of HST's with ScotRail, it's shocking how many InterCity services are still 170's, or even 158's(!). Is staff training still the main issue, or is it reliability issues with the HST's?

It is not ideal, as per post 9283 only two returns were out the other day (out of 7 refurbs) so even the day we get all 26 done and all running reliably with no staffing issues etc is a long way off....

 

[weatherman222]

While it's true there is a tip-up seat next to one of the cycle areas, I can't ever recall there being a notice that stated it was a dual-use area, where wheelchair users were given priority. Not to say there isn't one - I just can't recall it.

I'm also sure I've had a cycle reservation that's specified the coach containing that rack (I remember it being a tight fit to get my wheel past the tip-up seat), although that could be down to coaches being mis-labelled.

Is it also true that cycle reservations were compulsory before the introduction of HSTs?

In any case, to say it's incorrect to claim that they've cut the available spaces from 4 to 2 is disingenuous at best, and an outright lie at worst.

I've been commuting Glasgow to Aberdeen with a bike for many years now. On 170s it's two racks, one on Coach A and one on Coach C, each capable of taking 2 bikes. Never have I seen a sign stating that bikes might have to be moved to give priority to wheelchairs.

Now, on some 170s, in the labelled wheelchair area opposite the bike rack on Coach A, there is also another bicycle sign on the window. This implies it is possible to fold away the seats and hang a couple of bikes on the mini-table. However other 170s don't have this sign. So to me, it means that 170s have 4 designated bike spaces, plus an additional 2 that might have to give way to a wheelchair user.

When the HSTs were originally announced, all the Scotrail/Abellio PR referred to these trains having 6 bike spaces, 4 being bookable end to end and another 2 for part journeys. Currently the classics do have space for 6 bikes at the end of the standard class carriage nearest the power car, but the refurbs only have the 2 vertical hanging spaces in the middle of the train, which I have yet to see anyone managing to actually squeeze two bikes into. One guy's bike was so difficult to put in even on its own that the guard gave up and it was just left outside one of the toilets, which was OK as it was out of order..... I don't know why the end to end spaces aren't available yet and why they are going to be in the power car rather than the adjacent carriage like they are in the classics.

So, 2 spaces is way short of expectations.

Booking was always described as compulsory on that route, though it is never actually checked.

 

[Highland37]

Scotrail actually promised 20 spaces but seem to think that the public have even shorter memories than their own.

 

[marks87]

When the HSTs were originally announced, all the Scotrail/Abellio PR referred to these trains having 6 bike spaces, 4 being bookable end to end and another 2 for part journeys. Currently the classics do have space for 6 bikes at the end of the standard class carriage nearest the power car, but the refurbs only have the 2 vertical hanging spaces in the middle of the train, which I have yet to see anyone managing to actually squeeze two bikes into. One guy's bike was so difficult to put in even on its own that the guard gave up and it was just left outside one of the toilets, which was OK as it was out of order..... I don't know why the end to end spaces aren't available yet and why they are going to be in the power car rather than the adjacent carriage like they are in the classics.

The refurb sets don't have a Trailer Guard Standard (TGS) coach, which is where bikes are stored on "classic" sets.

 

[BRX]

View attachment 67688 Scotrail actually promised 20 spaces but seem to think that the public have even shorter memories than their own.

I think you need to put that screenshot on their twitter feed and see what they have to say. Very clearly implies bike space in the power cars too.

 

[Highland37]

I think you need to put that screenshot on their twitter feed and see what they have to say. Very clearly implies bike space in the power cars too.

I have and through Facebook but this is an industry in denial. They just ignore it. We have a massively delayed programme which is slowly delivering unreliable trains which represent the worst ever situation with regards to bike spaces.

 

[47271]

I have and through Facebook but this is an industry in denial. They just ignore it. We have a massively delayed programme which is slowly delivering unreliable trains which represent the worst ever situation with regards to bike spaces.

Maybe one for Scotland's Transport Journalist of the Year if you care to draw it to his attention? It's a bigger story than most of the rubbish he trots out.

Maybe the P&J, it's more significant for the north and north east than the rest of Scotland.

Or just get it out everywhere at once if you've got the time.

They need a massive public kicking for it, that's for sure.

 

[BRX]

They also need telling off for talking about the "class 125".

 

[Highland37]

They won't get pulled up though on bike spaces. The rest of the email which I got the above quote from, makes it very clear ; they really think that they are doing a great job.

 

[laseandre]

We have been happy to purchase new rolling stock from manufacturers around the globe.

Some enterprising company in, say, India should have offered to have all the HST units shipped out, stripped, rebuilt and shipped back for half the price.

I've read that RMT page, the foot dominated by links to yet more strikes. The road transport industry has so many advantages.

The main "advantage" I see you lauding is the road transport industry's lack of trade union membership... I wonder why some people don't like workers standing up for themselves?

 

[mikey9]

The main "advantage" I see you lauding is the road transport industry's lack of trade union membership... I wonder why some people don't like workers standing up for themselves?

Yes - god forbid that workers would want not to have their pay cut - and that their Union listens to their views and supports their aims. Gawd bless the road transport industry (where I assume you accept pay cuts and say thank you!)

 

[weatherman222]

I think you need to put that screenshot on their twitter feed and see what they have to say. Very clearly implies bike space in the power cars too.

https://www.transportxtra.com/publi...-long-rail-journeys-to-be-halved-by-scotrail/
https://www.railengineer.co.uk/2017/03/23/scotrails-new-hsts/
There seems to have been a fuss at the time that the plan for 20 bike spaces on HST was reduced to 8 (!) and until recently 8 was the plan (not 6 as I mentioned earlier). That's 2 on train, and 3 in each power car for end to end journeys. There is reference to the fact that 4 spaces were allowed on 170s (not 2 plus 2 non-guaranteed)

 

[BRX]

Does the 20 bikes figure just come from 'initial discussions' or was it formalised in some way - in franchise agreement and so on?

Is there any reason to believe that the back-tracking on the power car bike storage provision is ultimately down to anything other than how much it would cost to do it?

 

[Killingworth]

The main "advantage" I see you lauding is the road transport industry's lack of trade union membership... I wonder why some people don't like workers standing up for themselves?

Actually I was thinking more of the ability to design, test, order and have in service commercial road vehicles over the length of time it takes to get new railway rolling stock. As far as transport users are concerned that also includes the fact that the average bus will be half the age of the average rail carriage. If an operator has an immediate need for more buses there's usually a wide range of serviceable older buses available and new ones relatively quickly.

However, if we want to look at union activities generally it's the dominance of strikes as the focus of activity that is so prominent on the RMT webpage. Most modern unions keep that 'nuclear', option in the background, a rarely used last resort. Once used it tends to get used again and again. In 30 years as a trades union rep I'd observe that the biggest long term determinant on pay was staff retention and turnover. When recruitment was difficult the union found it easy to get big increases. The employer would always make it sound as a conciliatory move towards the union, which in turn claimed a victory . I don't recall specific pay cuts, but concede that updated working practices left fewer well paid posts for people to be moved into.

But we've drifted away from HSTs and Scotrail's problems.

 

[Railperf]

Are there any HST services diagrams up and down the Highland mainline yet that are reliably booked as HST's? If not, the most regular ones would be handy to know. Either classic or refurbished sets please.