ScotRail HST replacement tender issued - ideas thread

[380101]

I think we can assume that this ITT has been issued because Scotrail have been told that the 22x fleet will be available then and have been offered them. They're simply following due process.

I'd imagine that this is indeed the case. I did say in another of the ScotRail HSTs threads in September that any tender issued would worded in such a way that only the 222s would meet the requirements. There is no other intercity diesel fleet that would be available within the specified timescales of the tender.

 

[Fife coaster]

Agreed as I see they have also pushed back decarbonising the network until 2045 so they could get 20 years out of class 222 also the class 156 will need replaced asap as they have done their duty but we need something better such as hyroden / diesel loco with push pull coaches mark 5 type giving the option to increase and decrease capacity depending on the season

 

[D365]

is there enough Mk4 sets going about to fulfil ScotRails needs, and would they be available in that timescale?

The LNER Mk4s are, in common with the 222s, owned by Eversholt. I can’t see Eversholt having any interest in re-leasing their remaining Mk4s instead of the 222s.

… but we need something better such as hyroden / diesel loco with push pull coaches mark 5 type giving the option to increase and decrease capacity depending on the season

The Mk5a rakes are effectively unpowered multiple units. They aren’t easily adaptable - and there aren’t enough of them.

 

[Fife coaster]

I see their quoting start 2026 but I thought the 222 were starting to come of lease next year so could possibly start earlier

 

[Scotrail84]

The LNER Mk4s are, in common with the 222s, owned by Eversholt. I can’t see Eversholt having any interest in re-leasing their remaining Mk4s instead of the 222s.


The Mk5a rakes are effectively unpowered multiple units. They aren’t easily adaptable - and there aren’t enough of them.

The MK4s with a loco and DVT would be ideal for Edinburgh/Glasgow - Inverness/Aberdeen services

It will 100% not be CAF rubbish.

 

[12LDA28C]

Agreed as I see they have also pushed back decarbonising the network until 2045 so they could get 20 years out of class 222 also the class 156 will need replaced asap as they have done their duty but we need something better such as hyroden / diesel loco with push pull coaches mark 5 type giving the option to increase and decrease capacity depending on the season

Hydrogen / diesel locos and push-pull coaches to replace 156s? I'll have some of what you're smoking, please.

 

[Fife coaster]

No mark5s for far north and WHL

 

[12LDA28C]

No mark5s for far north and WHL

You're quite correct. There will be no Mk5s for the Far North or WHL.

 

[EMU303]

I see the revised decarbonisation plan has been pushed back again. Be interesting to see the overall timelines for wider fleet renewal including ageing 318s, 320s as well as the diesel fleets.

Scotland to get new Intercity fleet

www.transport.gov.scot

Further details on this announcement will be shared when the contract is awarded in 2025. It is also expected that the refreshed Decarbonisation Action Plan will be published in Spring 2025, and this will detail updated targets for replacing ScotRail’s existing diesel fleets.

Further details on this announcement will be shared when the contract is awarded in 2025. It is also expected that the refreshed Decarbonisation Action Plan will be published in Spring 2025, and this will detail updated targets for replacing ScotRail’s existing diesel fleets.

 

[gingertom]

If pushing for 2026 I'm assuming this, for now, rules out the possibility of new build stock? Does this mean 222s are inevitable ?

Timescales would rule out new build. There's nothing else going to be available in the near future. Usual caveat, the price has to be right otherwise the HSTs will need to soldier on longer. IMHO the 222s would be a good fit until we can afford new build, even if they are a bit overpowered, and there's enough of them.

 

[Energy]

Timescales would rule out new build. There's nothing else going to be available in the near future. Usual caveat, the price has to be right otherwise the HSTs will need to soldier on longer. IMHO the 222s would be a good fit until we can afford new build, even if they are a bit overpowered, and there's enough of them.

They can probably afford new build but it makes sense to hang on longer with 222s or HSTs and wait for electrification.

 

[43096]

Transport Scotland and ScotRail have some serious questions to answer about wasting public money, as they will be paying for the HSTs still through to 2030.

 

[VioletEclipse]

They can probably afford new build but it makes sense to hang on longer with 222s or HSTs and wait for electrification.

In my opinion electrification should be quite high up the priority list, as it won't be cheap, but there are masses of advantages to being able to buy pure pantoraph electric new stock (no battery nonsense) and run the service so much better once the wires are up. Although even then, having voyagers (or meridians whatever the 222s are) as a stopgap makes sense as I doubt the HSTs would last through the full process of electrification.

 

[hwl]

Ok I know due to requirements wouldnt meet options required, but always felt with their high power the 185's would have been great for Scotland.

On lease with TP till after the required dates....

 

[delt1c]

On lease with TP till after the required dates....

Agree , a result of privatisation , but power would have been excellent for highlands

 

[chuff chuff]

Well going by the dates mentioned that should be enough to see me through to retirement,somehow didn't think I'd get to work the battery/electric stuff was always dubious of the previous announcements on timescale.

 

[Mikey C]

Seems a sensible enough short term deal to me. The 222s are perfectly decent, and it's not as if there are contracts signed and contractors wiring up the route anytime soon.

 

[John Bishop]

Well going by the dates mentioned that should be enough to see me through to retirement,somehow didn't think I'd get to work the battery/electric stuff was always dubious of the previous announcements on timescale.

Don’t think many of the current Drivers will given the current and future timescales of electrification!

 

[Scotrail84]

Well going by the dates mentioned that should be enough to see me through to retirement,somehow didn't think I'd get to work the battery/electric stuff was always dubious of the previous announcements on timescale.

This was always going to happen. There was no way we'd be rid of diesel trains up here by 2035. Absolute pie in the sky stuff in truth.

 

[kkong]

Transport Scotland and ScotRail have some serious questions to answer about wasting public money, as they will be paying for the HSTs still through to 2030.

No doubt a large part of the decision to replace before 2030 is as a result of Carmont and the subsequent engagement with unions and the Steering Group.

 

[380101]

Transport Scotland and ScotRail have some serious questions to answer about wasting public money, as they will be paying for the HSTs still through to 2030.

What makes you think that a deal has not been negotiated with Angel to revise the lease end date?

Contracts can, and are renegotiated in almost every industry when required. The fact the ITT has been issued indicates that some sort of deal will have been reached with Angel.

 

[43096]

What makes you think that a deal has not been negotiated with Angel to revise the lease end date?

Contracts can, and are renegotiated in almost every industry when required. The fact the ITT has been issued indicates that some sort of deal will have been reached with Angel.

Why would Angel re-negotiate? They have no off lease fleet to offer - it is clearly targeted at Eversholt’s 222s - so there is nothing to be gained for Angel. They would accept ScotRail paying the full lease up early in all likelihoo, though.

 

[XCTurbostar]

SRT makes it very clear that the new fleet is expected to be replaced by a new-build zero-emission fleet during the period 2035-40.

No doubt a large part of the decision to replace before 2030 is as a result of Carmont and the subsequent engagement with unions and the Steering Group.

The procurement overview makes it clear that this was not a motive (at least not publically)

 

[Christmas]

Could 222s be shortened to form a small fleet of 3 or 4 cars for the West Highlands? The extra coaches being inserted into make longer I7C trains?

Transport Scotland will obviously make a meal of this procurement process and continue to throw good money after bad in the meantime with the HSTs.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Could 222s be shortened to form a small fleet of 3 or 4 cars for the West Highlands? The extra coaches being inserted into make longer I7C trains?

Why would you run 222s up the West Highland Line? It looks like there will just be enough to run the current I7C service.

If the whole fleet of 27 trains were to become available, it would be more sensible to use that to run the originally planned full I7C service and cascade 158s or 170s. Or better yet buy some FLIRTs.

I'll be interested to see what's proposed for the 7-car 222s. I'm assuming they'll just get shortened to 5 cars. But a handful of longer trains dedicated to Aberdeen-Edinburgh diagrams could make sense.

 

[Dfatcontroller]

Why would you run 222s up the West Highland Line? It looks like there will just be enough to run the current I7C service.

If the whole fleet of 27 trains were to become available, it would be more sensible to use that to run the originally planned full I7C service and cascade 158s or 170s. Or better yet buy some FLIRTs.

I'll be interested to see what's proposed for the 7-car 222s. I'm assuming they'll just get shortened to 5 cars. But a handful of longer trains dedicated to Aberdeen-Edinburgh diagrams could make sense.

Makes sense for capacity but not for operational flexibility.

 

[cf111]

I wouldn't be surprised if Angel Trains submit a bid to do something to the HSTs

The only thing they are fit for is the cutter's torch and unless they are planning on strengthening the power cars so that the only thing between the driver and an obstruction isn't some fibreglass and the desk, then ASLEF will quite probably tell their members not to drive them.

 

[Nym]

Makes sense for capacity but not for operational flexibility.

They may end up reformed into 8 off 6 car units

 

[Kite159]

Makes sense the 222s potentially heading to Scotland, just reform the interiors so 1st class is only within the driving coach (maybe try to get the window -seat alignment better) with the remaining 4 coaches as standard class (even if the 2+1 seats remain in place until they get changed to 2+2). Keep the 7 coach units for those services which are known to be busy.

 

[chuff chuff]

Wonder what the plan would have been without the 222's availability to dig them out of a hole.