ScotRail HST replacement tender issued - ideas thread

[JamesT]

Why would a fairly straightforward policy change to operate stock as it is elsewhere on the network require modification of stock. Current operating procedures are defined by legacy stock the staff and unions agree, indeed insist, quite rightly is no longer fit for purpose, why would they object to modern stock and operating procedures?

See the newly electrified Barrhead line, where industrial action by the RMT forced Scotrail to run new stock with Guards. Even though identical trains already run on Scotrail’s network as DCO.

 

[Scotrail84]

Interesting, suggests reforming is planned anyway, though if 5 six car units going elsewhere either there are going to be some driving cars spare or Scotrail get max 3 six car units, given scotrail will need pretty much all remaining 22 units, makes not much flexibility.

Yeah, Highland line was better than I expected, though a few where one side is much longer than the other. Markinch and Carnoustie are the only 2 plausible stops on the list you mentioned and both capable of 6 car. Places like Dalgety Bay and Burntisland can also only fit 6 carriages, but likewise are unlikely to be served by Intercity Services. Scotrail went round extending platforms to take 6 car trains about 10-15 years ago, so there are a lot of 150m (give or take a bit) platforms out there. I think 6 car is the likely maximum length.

Why would a fairly straightforward policy change to operate stock as it is elsewhere on the network require modification of stock. Current operating procedures are defined by legacy stock the staff and unions agree, indeed insist, quite rightly is no longer fit for purpose, why would they object to modern stock and operating procedures?

Because DOCCO is one step closer to full on DOO.

Do EM guards currently carry out full door operations on these units? Full door release and close etc?

 

[380101]

Because DOCCO is one step closer to full on DOO.

Do EM guards currently carry out full door operations on these units? Full door release and close etc?

I believe the aim for ScotRail going forward is eventually to be DOCCO for all services. Granted, it will take years to achieve it, but with a large scale fleet replacement due at somepoint in the next 5years it makes sense to move to one method of working across the whole country.

The recent upgrade of the Strathclyde Manning Agreement whereby drivers no longer have to take a train in passenger service if the Ticket Examiner is not onboard is the first step on the way to achieving change.

 

[Tayway]

Markinch and Carnoustie are the only 2 plausible stops on the list you mentioned and both capable of 6 car. Places like Dalgety Bay and Burntisland can also only fit 6 carriages, but likewise are unlikely to be served by Intercity Services.

Broughty Ferry, Monifieth, Carnoustie, Invergowrie, Markinch, Ladybank and Portlethen all have scheduled HST calls in the current timetable. Dalgety Bay and Burtisland don't.

 

[Cails27]

What does DOCO stand for? and is DOCCO the same or something different?

The correct one is DOCCO and it stands for Driver Open Conductor Close Operation

 

[Class83]

Broughty Ferry, Monifieth, Carnoustie, Invergowrie, Markinch, Ladybank and Portlethen all have scheduled HST calls in the current timetable. Dalgety Bay and Burtisland don't.

The current timetable is a mess, with a lot of stations getting irregular calls.

Would be more sensible to go back to similar to how it was about 20 years ago when there were distinct intercity and stopping services, but make them all hourly regular services.

e.g. 1705 Edinburgh-Aberdeen, calling; Haymarket, Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Markinch, Cupar, Leuchars, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose & Stonehaven (it actually terminated at Dyce)
1714 Edinburgh to Carnoustie, calling at all stops

That on an hourly basis, along with making Montrose-Inverurie hourly for Laurencekirk and Portlethen would be a good balance of intercity and stopping services.

 

[Scotrail84]

The current timetable is a mess, with a lot of stations getting irregular calls.

Would be more sensible to go back to similar to how it was about 20 years ago when there were distinct intercity and stopping services, but make them all hourly regular services.

e.g. 1705 Edinburgh-Aberdeen, calling; Haymarket, Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Markinch, Cupar, Leuchars, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose & Stonehaven (it actually terminated at Dyce)
1714 Edinburgh to Carnoustie, calling at all stops

That on an hourly basis, along with making Montrose-Inverurie hourly for Laurencekirk and Portlethen would be a good balance of intercity and stopping services.

That was always a disaster of a train as it is right in the middle of peak time and it was always mobbed and invariably a 3 car turbo. Theres plenty other services that call at those stations.

 

[Class83]

That was always a disaster of a train as it is right in the middle of peak time and it was always mobbed and invariably a 3 car turbo. Theres plenty other services that call at those stations.

It was usually busy, but I don't recall it being notably bad for a rush hour train, was normally a 170 with a 158 on the back in my experience. If trains leaving Edinburgh just after 5pm aren't busy that is a bigger problem for the railway.

But the general point was that an hourly service with an Intercity and a stopper just after it, every hour would give a consistent service to all stations, where currently it's a bit ad hoc.

 

[Scotrail84]

It was usually busy, but I don't recall it being notably bad for a rush hour train, was normally a 170 with a 158 on the back in my experience. If trains leaving Edinburgh just after 5pm aren't busy that is a bigger problem for the railway.

But the general point was that an hourly service with an Intercity and a stopper just after it, every hour would give a consistent service to all stations, where currently it's a bit ad hoc.

The 17:14 Carnoustie was usually a 4 car 150 until they transferred to Wales, then158s/170s took over with the odd 156 making an appearance tooiirc. That wont ever make a return due to the Dundee-Arbroath stoppers running now.

Aberdeen services from Edinburgh Should be first stop Dundee, skip everything in Fife as theres plenty services to Dundee to get a connection.

 

[hexagon789]

Aberdeen services from Edinburgh Should be first stop Dundee, skip everything in Fife as theres plenty services to Dundee to get a connection.

Definitely should keep the Leuchars call, needing to double back to get the bus link to St Andrews is just silly when it generates a good amount of traffic.

Cupar could probably be dropped again, but local residents or politicians must've had some clout to get the calls added back into the Aberdeens fairly recently.

 

[JamesT]

Aberdeen services from Edinburgh Should be first stop Dundee, skip everything in Fife as theres plenty services to Dundee to get a connection.

Since when was once an hour plenty of services? Fife needs some of the services that were taken away back, not more chopped.

 

[ainsworth74]

Do EM guards currently carry out full door operations on these units? Full door release and close etc?

I am reliably informed that the driver sets the number of doors to be released but the guard actually releases the doors and closes the doors. They seem more involved than on Voyagers where the driver closes the doors on the instruction of the guard (ten bell dispatch I believe it's called).

 

[godfreycomplex]

I am reliably informed that the driver sets the number of doors to be released but the guard actually releases the doors and closes the doors. They seem more involved than on Voyagers where the driver closes the doors on the instruction of the guard (ten bell dispatch I believe it's called).

This is correct

 

[Scotrail84]

Definitely should keep the Leuchars call, needing to double back to get the bus link to St Andrews is just silly when it generates a good amount of traffic.

Cupar could probably be dropped again, but local residents or politicians must've had some clout to get the calls added back into the Aberdeens fairly recently.

Fair point on the Leuchars stop. Cupar is a waste of time in general. Often nobody gets on or off there.

Since when was once an hour plenty of services? Fife needs some of the services that were taken away back, not more chopped.

Where are you getting the units from to provide 'more' services?

I am reliably informed that the driver sets the number of doors to be released but the guard actually releases the doors and closes the doors. They seem more involved than on Voyagers where the driver closes the doors on the instruction of the guard (ten bell dispatch I believe it's called).

Thats good to know, the same arrangement will continue with ScotRail then unless drivers insist the guard controls ASDO as well.

 

[PG]

What can couple to rescue a failed 222? Anything currently being run by ScotRail or just another 222?

 

[hexagon789]

What can couple to rescue a failed 222? Anything currently being run by ScotRail or just another 222?

Only another 222.

 

[Nym]

Thats good to know, the same arrangement will continue with ScotRail then unless drivers insist the guard controls ASDO as well.

222 have SDO, not ASDO.

 

[Class83]

The 17:14 Carnoustie was usually a 4 car 150 until they transferred to Wales, then158s/170s took over with the odd 156 making an appearance tooiirc. That wont ever make a return due to the Dundee-Arbroath stoppers running now.

Aberdeen services from Edinburgh Should be first stop Dundee, skip everything in Fife as theres plenty services to Dundee to get a connection.

In order of population, and hence passenger potential on the Edinburgh-Aberdeen line, the order of 'Settlements' (combined urban areas) would be:

Aberdeen 220,690
Dundee 158,820 (including; Monifieth, Broughty Ferry & Invergowrie)
Inverkeithing 76,210 (part of Dunfermline, including: Crossgates, Inverkeithing, Rosyth)
Kirkcaldy 50,370 (including; Dysart)
Markinch 44,760 (part of Glenrothes)
Arbroath 23,500
Leuchars 4000 (but serves St Andrews 18,410 so total 22,410)
Montrose 12,950
Carnoustie 11,310
Stonehaven 11,150
Cupar 8,960

Inverkeithing serves more people than all the intermediate stops between Dundee and Aberdeen. Either the Intercity trains should run Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen only, or they should call at several places in Fife.

Merging the Edinburgh-Dundee stopper with the Dundee to Arbroath service would basically do this without adding any more trains.

Since when was once an hour plenty of services? Fife needs some of the services that were taken away back, not more chopped.

Agreed, it doesn't even really involve running more trains; just restoring main stops on intercities, merging the Edinburgh to Dundee and Dundee to Arbroath stoppers. Add to 2 trains per hour to Leven (pop 30,730) with 1 each via Kirkcaldy/Dunfermline and a Perth Stopper via Dunfermline and there would actually be a decent, service without running much more than currently.

 

[Davester50]

Either the Intercity trains should run Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen only, or they should call at several places in Fife.

The only places they should serve are outside of the Fife Circle stations. There's an abundance of services already.
Any new replacement fleet should see better timetabling through Fife. Slow running when going through the Gateway/Gyle is frustrating.

Northbound, if they do end up with slightly fewer seats than the existing Inter City fleet, there's no way they should be stopping at Inverkeithing.

Merging the Edinburgh-Dundee stopper with the Dundee to Arbroath service would basically do this without adding any more trains.

They tried that before, and thankfully they separated them. I've had too many cancellations when late running has terminated short in Dundee.
Although I've also had too many cancellations on the "Angus Shuttle".

The 222s? I always found the seats a bit odd in Standard. Never used first.
If they are reliable, and reduce the amount of 2/3 car substitutions, then great. Bring them on.

 

[chuff chuff]

The only places they should serve are outside of the Fife Circle stations. There's an abundance of services already.
Any new replacement fleet should see better timetabling through Fife. Slow running when going through the Gateway/Gyle is frustrating.

Northbound, if they do end up with slightly fewer seats than the existing Inter City fleet, there's no way they should be stopping at Inverkeithing.


They tried that before, and thankfully they separated them. I've had too many cancellations when late running has terminated short in Dundee.
Although I've also had too many cancellations on the "Angus Shuttle".

The 222s? I always found the seats a bit odd in Standard. Never used first.
If they are reliable, and reduce the amount of 2/3 car substitutions, then great. Bring them on.

Been waiting for better timetabling since the introduction of the hst's,though coming out of Edinburgh is better than heading south where you start getting held up by stoppers sometimes from as early as Aberdour.
The Arbroaths were originally meant to be from Glasgow Queen Street IIRC but this has never happened.

 

[Stathern Jc]

The talk of 222s here makes me think I may have missed something.
So I had a look at the "Scotrail HST replacement tender issued ideas" thread where much of the discussion had suggested that the 222s appeared the most likely choice (and most likely the inspiration of the Tender Spec). But I see there haven't been any posts since December.
Has there been any more recent news than that?
Or is it just a simple case of however hard anyone looks they can't find anything else?

 

[waverley47]

The talk of 222s here makes me think I may have missed something.
So I had a look at the "Scotrail HST replacement tender issued ideas" thread where much of the discussion had suggested that the 222s appeared the most likely choice (and most likely the inspiration of the Tender Spec). But I see there haven't been any posts since December.
Has there been any more recent news than that?
Or is it just a simple case of however hard anyone looks they can't find anything else?

It's mainly a matter of what else is there that fits? Unless you want to start patching together some old 156s, or scraping the last remaining mk4s, there basically nothing else on the network that fulfils the criteria of there being enough sets, those sets being long enough, and that are expected to be available at any point in the next decade.

 

[Scotrail84]

222s coming to ScotRail is probably the worst kept secret in the railway. Theres literally no other available rolling stock that are available and fit the requirements.

 

[BRX]

...except for a fleet of converted HSTs

 

[Scotrail84]

...except for a fleet of converted HSTs

Like what?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I haven’t really had the chance to have a proper read of others ideas. I’m playing this boring and also going with the 222’s.

My proposal is all 27 sets. For reference 20-21 sets are needed should you wish to covert all services on the existing routes to the new stock on the existing timetable. This is the ‘core’ Inter7City routes that the HST’s currently run on. This frees up 158’s and 170’s for much needed lengthening of services, particularly in the Fife area.

Sets would all be at least 5 cars, with the first 8 (222001-008) being 6 cars.

I have used this link from seat61.com to gather information on the existing 5 car layouts and this is how I would base the sets:

Formation A-B-C-D-(E)-F.

Coach A would be largely untouched. The combined luggage and bike space being changed to store the catering trolley and any extra stock. One wheelchair accessible space and toilet is provided.

Coach B is untouched and forms the base layout for most of the standard class carriages.

Coach C would be changed so that the Buffet Bar is entirely removed and converted to a combined luggage/bike space storage area. I had intended to house this in the old Galley but owing to short platforms being a problem in some areas, I felt that this would have been somewhat flawed.

Coach D would be converted from a composite carriage into purely standard class. Again, the layout used from Coach B being reused here.

Coach E would be the extra coach on 6 car sets only and is the same layout as B and D. This would therefore be permanently unreserved so as to not affect seat reservations etc, much like it is on 5 car HST’s.

Coach F (previously Coach G) would be untouched in terms of a seating layout. The Galley is entirely removed to create a single whole coach of First Class. One wheelchair accessible space and toilet is provided.

Some controversial ideas there but I’ve tried to keep the refit/refurbishment costs as low as possible, simply removing things that I would deem unnecessary for ScotRail and its customer flow.

On a different point. Might Alstom offer to build another Scottish depot in Edinburgh or nearby in the case of a successful negotiation? If you think about it Edinburgh has numerous Alstom maintained sets that finish their passenger runs for the day there, yet currently they either have to return to Glasgow at Polmadie or go to Hitachi’s Craigentinny Depot who probably could do with the extra space back to be honest.

For reference these are CrossCountry’s 7 Class 220/221’s that finish at Edinburgh, Avanti West Coast’s 2 Class 390 Pendolino’s, 1 TransPennine Express Class 397, the Caledonian Sleeper Mark 5’s and potentially ScotRail with the 222’s. Not exactly nothing, though I am aware there’s somewhat of a traditional plan that the morning Edinburgh arrival Sleeper does the Glasgow departure that night and vice versa and that a lone 397 and 2 390’s probably has its problems with diagramming as well. Just an idea that would especially be beneficial for the 220’s/221’s/222’s. I would expect Glasgow Queen Street finishing 222’s to be based out of Polmadie as well and yes Cadder would be more or less redundant for now.

 

[Backroom_boy]

Coach F (previously Coach G) would be untouched in terms of a seating layout. The Galley is entirely removed to create a single whole coach of First Class. One wheelchair accessible space and toilet is provided.

Is there demand for a whole coach of first class on these routes?

 

[Scotrail84]

I haven’t really had the chance to have a proper read of others ideas. I’m playing this boring and also going with the 222’s.

My proposal is all 27 sets. For reference 20-21 sets are needed should you wish to covert all services on the existing routes to the new stock on the existing timetable. This is the ‘core’ Inter7City routes that the HST’s currently run on. This frees up 158’s and 170’s for much needed lengthening of services, particularly in the Fife area.

Sets would all be at least 5 cars, with the first 8 (222001-008) being 6 cars.

I have used this link from seat61.com to gather information on the existing 5 car layouts and this is how I would base the sets:

Formation A-B-C-D-(E)-F.

Coach A would be largely untouched. The combined luggage and bike space being changed to store the catering trolley and any extra stock. One wheelchair accessible space and toilet is provided.

Coach B is untouched and forms the base layout for most of the standard class carriages.

Coach C would be changed so that the Buffet Bar is entirely removed and converted to a combined luggage/bike space storage area. I had intended to house this in the old Galley but owing to short platforms being a problem in some areas, I felt that this would have been somewhat flawed.

Coach D would be converted from a composite carriage into purely standard class. Again, the layout used from Coach B being reused here.

Coach E would be the extra coach on 6 car sets only and is the same layout as B and D. This would therefore be permanently unreserved so as to not affect seat reservations etc, much like it is on 5 car HST’s.

Coach F (previously Coach G) would be untouched in terms of a seating layout. The Galley is entirely removed to create a single whole coach of First Class. One wheelchair accessible space and toilet is provided.

Some controversial ideas there but I’ve tried to keep the refit/refurbishment costs as low as possible, simply removing things that I would deem unnecessary for ScotRail and its customer flow.

On a different point. Might Alstom offer to build another Scottish depot in Edinburgh or nearby in the case of a successful negotiation? If you think about it Edinburgh has numerous Alstom maintained sets that finish their passenger runs for the day there, yet currently they either have to return to Glasgow at Polmadie or go to Hitachi’s Craigentinny Depot who probably could do with the extra space back to be honest.

For reference these are CrossCountry’s 7 Class 220/221’s that finish at Edinburgh, Avanti West Coast’s 2 Class 390 Pendolino’s, 1 TransPennine Express Class 397, the Caledonian Sleeper Mark 5’s and potentially ScotRail with the 222’s. Not exactly nothing, though I am aware there’s somewhat of a traditional plan that the morning Edinburgh arrival Sleeper does the Glasgow departure that night and vice versa and that a lone 397 and 2 390’s probably has its problems with diagramming as well. Just an idea that would especially be beneficial for the 220’s/221’s/222’s. I would expect Glasgow Queen Street finishing 222’s to be based out of Polmadie as well and yes Cadder would be more or less redundant for now.

The sleepers sets now do not swap at Polmadie, whatever has been on the Edinburgh goes back out as the Edinburgh and the same for the Glasgow portion.

Is there demand for a whole coach of first class on these routes?

Absolutely!! Very heavily populated for about 9 months of the year between Edinburgh/Glasgow and Inverness in particular with lots of (mainly) American tourists buying up all there first class accommodation.

 

[chuff chuff]

Is there demand for a whole coach of first class on these routes?

They'd probably look for the accessible part to be more central for use on short platforms unless they see sense and stop using inter7city services at these stations.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Is there demand for a whole coach of first class on these routes?

If marketed and priced properly with a reasonable offering onboard, then yes. LNER often fills its First Class north of Edinburgh which is about 2 carriages worth. Though the latter does admittedly have a kitchen and several staff working.