ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[maradona10]

I think the important bit here is ‘if I were in the shoes of a conductor/TE’. That’s maybe the issue here. Those taking strike action will be losing money through this. They’re not doing it lightly and the reality is there are probably a number of issues in the background that have pushed them to this point. I dare say that the stated reason of the RDW enhancement is merely the straw that’s broken the camels back.

Spot on

 

[Starmill]

What's your problem with other grades asking for a rest day enhancement which they only seem to want to provide to drivers?

It has been said time and time again that there's a considerable pressure on value for money and operational efficiency at the moment, to the point that some services are being culled permanently in order to cut operating expenses.

If a member of staff is unwilling to undertake overtime work at 100% pay then they should simply not be undertaking any. Of course, pressure or contractual commitment to do so may get in the way of that - and that I can most certainly agree is unfair.

 

[ComUtoR]

TSSA could negotiate a 3% no strings pay rise year after year for Managers while the RMT/ASLEF members/grades only get 1% out of them. By your reasoning,

I don't have any 'reasoning' just that I'm interested why one grade feels they have an equivalence with another. I drive Choo Choo's and other staff carry out their roles. There is no way I could sit in an office all day and there is no way I could be on my feet, walking up and down through trains all day dealing with passengers. I know for a fact that my TOC and indeed any company sees each role as being independent.

would it be wrong for the RMT/ASLEF members/grades to be aggrieved by only ever being offered 1%?

This is something I'm certainly interested in. 1% for me and 1% for someone else comes out very differently. Even if everyone else got the same % rise it still isn't parity or even fair. This has come up at my TOC before. People are concerned over the % that another grade got, and I understand their grievance, but headline figures often distract from the reality of a pay deal. Especially when it comes down to cold hard cash.

The RMT/ASLEF should not campaign for more?

Of course. Most of us know and understand that a Guard is worth their weight in gold. For me they do an amazing job and they should have a wage that reflects that. IF I got 1% and that same 1% was offered to the Guards, personally I'd feel they were short changed.

Surely ASLEF/the Drivers just show what's possible?

Very true. We all see that one grade getting X amount shows that there is money in the budget somewhere. For me, I'd see it more as they got £xx extra per year so I'd like a raise somewhere similar; irrespective of what % that works out as.

Again, we all know that a pay rise often comes with heavy caveats. My neighbouring TOC has a very different salary than mine but their day is significantly longer. Our Platform staff get a variety of shift allowances. We don't. If they saw us get a 3% rise and wanted parity. Would it be fair for the company to also seek parity by removing their shift allowance ?

I just find that looking at other grades for comparison just doesn't work. Everyone should fight for what they think they are worth and certainly expect fair and equal treatment.

 

[maradona10]

You sound very much like ScotRail senior management and countless politicians. Very good.

 

[Starmill]

You clearly do have a problem with it or else you wouldn't keep making arguments against it. You aren't a TE or a conductor so you don't know that.

All out action for twelve days goes well beyond a straightforward industrial dispute though doesn't it? It will cause lots of attention from all staff and funders, be they public funds or passengers paying fares, and attention from the supply chain and no doubt the Ministers' offices.

 

[Falcon1200]

I think the important bit here is ‘if I were in the shoes of a conductor/TE’. That’s maybe the issue here. Those taking strike action will be losing money through this. They’re not doing it lightly and the reality is there are probably a number of issues in the background that have pushed them to this point. I dare say that the stated reason of the RDW enhancement is merely the straw that’s broken the camels back.

I would have to agree with that, although I do wonder whether those who felt they had no choice but to vote for a strike realised this would be a full 12 days during the entire period of COP26 ?

It is perhaps worth pointing out that some of the issues raised are not exactly new; Sundays for example. When I joined the railway in 1978 Sunday shifts, although rostered, were over and above the normal working week and were therefore paid as such, ie overtime; That was still the case when I retired from the railway 38 years later ! And grade differentials and unfairness/injustice; In 1989 I was promoted from a Grade D role to MS1, none of the Grade E staff who were way senior to me applied for the MS1 post because it would cost them money, due to the overtime payment system, despite MS1 being a higher grade.

 

[maradona10]

All out action for twelve days goes well beyond a straightforward industrial dispute though doesn't it? It will cause lots of attention from all staff and funders, be they public funds or passengers paying fares, and attention from the supply chain and no doubt the Ministers' offices.

You and others have been arguing against it long before a 12 day strike was balloted or announced. It’s an opportunity to force an end to this **** show and they are rightly trying to seize it.

 

[68000]

You and others have been arguing against it long before a 12 day strike was balloted or announced. It’s an opportunity to force an end to this **** show and they are rightly trying to seize it.

A post earlier stated that the 12 day strike action is nothing to do with the RDW dispute. What **** show are you referring to?

ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

Mate half the roads are closing and certain stations are due to be closed in and around the conference venue. Public transport is essential during it. You’re having a laugh if you’re saying it’s not that relevant. I get you’re probably playing devils advocate but it’s unfathomable.

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Starmill]

A post earlier stated that the 12 day strike action is nothing do the RDW dispute. What **** show are you referring to?

Making the very specific nature of the dispute difficult to pin down, and therefore difficult to actually solve, is also a negotiation strategy.

 

[maradona10]

A post earlier stated that the 12 day strike action is nothing do the RDW dispute. What **** show are you referring to?

Eh, the pay dispute.

 

[John Bishop]

I would have to agree with that, although I do wonder whether those who felt they had no choice but to vote for a strike realised this would be a full 12 days during the entire period of COP26 ?

That is a very good point. Were they aware of what they were voting for in terms of planned action? That’s going to be a big hit on the monthly salary for a lot of people!

 

[Goldfish62]

I must admit I'm now utterly confused about what strike action refers to which dispute, and what has been offered/not offered/under consideration/rejected.

 

[Carntyne]

Why should they trust anyone who doesn’t commit to a ‘no compulsory redundancies’ clause? Would you like your job to be under threat like that?

Embarrassing a government on a world stage, particularly one which obsesses over its image on a daily basis feels like a poor negotiating tactic ahead of being brought under their direct control in a couple of months. It puts our jobs in more jeopardy.

 

[68000]

Eh, the pay dispute.

What is the history of the pay dispute in question?

 

[snookertam]

Embarrassing a government on a world stage, particularly one which obsesses over its image on a daily basis feels like a poor negotiating tactic ahead of being brought under their direct control in a couple of months. It puts our jobs in more jeopardy.

What other negotiating tactic should they try? They’re trying to force an end to the dispute. If the government don’t want to be embarrassed they could come to an agreement.

Are you suggesting that the government will respond with mass redundancies in an act of revenge? Risking cutting their nose off to spite their face if that happened.

 

[maradona10]

There’s about 50 pages in this thread go and read it

 

[John Bishop]

I must admit I'm now utterly confused about what strike action refers to which dispute, and what has been offered/not offered/under consideration/rejected.

According to BBC news this morning, the latest offer from Scotrail has not been balloted to members as the RMT deem it unacceptable. Mick Hogg stating that efficiency savings in return for a pay rise is not acceptable.

What other negotiating tactic should they try? They’re trying to force an end to the dispute. If the government don’t want to be embarrassed they could come to an agreement.

Are you suggesting that the government will respond with mass redundancies in an act of revenge? Risking cutting their nose off to spite their face if that happened.

Anythings possible with this lot in power!

 

[Devon Sunset]

This discussion has went full circle numerous times and now resembles a dog chasing its tail. Everyone who was balloted knew what they were voting on and the potential action that was likely to be taken, a consultative ballot happened in September where the questions were asked "are you willing to take strike action for the duration of COP26" and "are you willing to take action short of a strike during COP26" so any suggestions otherwise are nonsense. Suffice to say that despite whatever anyone on here may think about it the people who voted are distinctly unhappy with the pay offer (I'm sure the reasons will vary between individuals) and are willing to take action in order to get a better offer. Why the other 1000 or so didn't vote is open to speculation but in the end it's irrelevant. They had their chance to vote in a democratic ballot and chose not too. It's now between the workforce/RMT and Scotrail/Transport Scotland to work out a solution. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but in the end the only opinions that count are the ones that are entitled to vote.

 

[Starmill]

Are you suggesting that the government will respond with mass redundancies in an act of revenge?

Making redundancies would probably not be a smart move, but it's possible to dismiss workers if the relationship has broken down beyond repair and the dispute has been ongoing for more than twelve weeks.

The fact that so many staff appear willing to publicly slate their employer on a forum suggests to me that there is a real risk of the relationship permanently breaking down between some workers and ScotRail.

 

[1874]

Hello, just a quick question please.. Will avanti trains still run to Edinburgh and Glasgow during the industrial action. Thanks..

 

[dk1]

Hello, just a quick question please.. Will avanti trains still run to Edinburgh and Glasgow during the industrial action. Thanks..

Of course. Not involved at all.

 

[alangla]

I would have to agree with that, although I do wonder whether those who felt they had no choice but to vote for a strike realised this would be a full 12 days during the entire period of COP26 ?

Is it not more likely that those who voted for it felt that they were voting to exert as much pressure as realistically possible on Transport Scotland and their political masters, but deep down expected that they would never need to go through with it. After all, strikes were called on TfL and the various south-eastern TOCs during the Olympics and something similar was threatened during the Commonwealth Games. Both produced payments for staff.

Given the complete lack of movement in the last 7 or so months, I can perfectly understand why the staff weren't going to let this opportunity go to waste. If COP26 wasn't happening, I genuinely believe we would not see any sort of resolution to the current mess this year and probably not before Easter of next.

It'll be interesting to see if Transport Scotland (and the puppet masters) call the Union's bluff, or if they cave at the last minute. My personal prediction is a miraculous agreement in week beginning 25th October, which will largely consist of giving the RMT whatever they want to end the dispute & ensure the trains run.

On the compulsory redundancy thing - I thought natural wastage across all grades at ScotRail was such that there was no realistic need for such a thing? Unless they're planning to boot the guards en-masse and replace them with TEs, but given the rather noisy show the SNP made of retaining them when the E&G and SDA went electric, that would seem a strange move.

 

[Goldfish62]

Making redundancies would probably not be a smart move, but it's possible to dismiss workers if the relationship has broken down beyond repair and the dispute has been ongoing for more than twelve weeks.

And clearly if ScotRail dismissed striking staff, which it's probably legally entitled to do at this stage, it would result in no services whatsoever and probably destroy Scotland's railway network for good. That's not going to happen.

The fact that so many staff appear willing to publicly slate their employer on a forum suggests to me that there is a real risk of the relationship permanently breaking down between some workers and ScotRail.

Things were just as fractious with the Southern guards dispute, but outwardly at least things settled down very quickly even though the company imposed the new working arrangements.

I don't think anyone would want to stay working for a company they loathed. If this remains the case at ScotRail then surely there will be mass resignations with staff leaving the railway industry for other jobs.

 

[kkong]

I have been an RMT member for the last 20 odd years and this will be my first actual strike. Let me try to explain why this is such a big issue for members.
We all put our lives at risk to provide transport for the people who were classed as key workers. We were classed as key workers. We did our part of the bargain...

My experience of travelling during the most part of the pandemic was on board staff occupying the entire 1st class carriage on the HSTs as their "safe working zone" (notwithstanding ScotRail publicly stating that 1st class was available to help passengers socially distance).

The staff never left 1st class except to work the doors.

The passengers must have been less "safe" than the staff, because each passenger did not have an entire coach to themselves.

 

[Bald Rick]

Who's talking about lorry drivers? What a pointless comparison.

I am. It’s not pointless at all, it’s two groups of people working for the same company, doing different jobs but being incentivised differently due to different levels of available resource.

Perhaps a comparison closer to home: for most TOCs, managers are not incentivised with additional payments to work overtime, indeed they are not paid any extra money at all. Is that fair ?

 

[Darandio]

I have been an RMT member for the last 20 odd years and this will be my first actual strike. Let me try to explain why this is such a big issue for members.
We all put our lives at risk to provide transport for the people who were classed as key workers. We were classed as key workers. We did our part of the bargain and when we asked for some financial recognition, we were ignored and told we should be grateful we have a job.

I'll ask again. If it's such a big issue for members why is it reported that over 1000 didn't even bother to vote?

 

[InOban]

And clearly if ScotRail dismissed striking staff, which it's probably legally entitled to do at this stage, it would result in no services whatsoever and probably destroy Scotland's railway network for good. That's not going to happen.


Things were just as fractious with the Southern guards dispute, but outwardly at least things settled down very quickly even though the company imposed the new working arrangements.

I don't think anyone would want to stay working for a company they loathed. If this remains the case at ScotRail then surely there will be mass resignations with staff leaving the railway industry for other jobs.

Presumably if they did fire the conductors, most services in the Glasgow area, including the Bathgate route to Edinburgh would still operate, being DOO? That covers most Scotrail passengers..

 

[Devon Sunset]

I'll ask again. If it's such a big issue for members why is it reported that over 1000 didn't even bother to vote?

You would really need to ask one of the individuals concerned because I for the life of me can't comprehend it. At the end of the day it doesn't matter, they had the chance to vote and they didn't take it.

Presumably if they did fire the conductors, most services in the Glasgow area, including the Bathgate route to Edinburgh would still operate, being DOO? That covers most Scotrail passengers..

Only if they didn't fire the TE's as well as they are required to be rostered to work those trains, DOO or not.

 

[maradona10]

I am. It’s not pointless at all, it’s two groups of people working for the same company, doing different jobs but being incentivised differently due to different levels of available resource.

Perhaps a comparison closer to home: for most TOCs, managers are not incentivised with additional payments to work overtime, indeed they are not paid any extra money at all. Is that fair ?

It is pointless because it’s irrelevant to this dispute and you know it is.
I’ve already said RTMS have been getting paid overtime for covering OUR shifts and bragging about their extra income to staff, so your point is moot. If they want to strike for whatever other reason they want to strike for then that’s their choice. I have no issue with any workers striking for what they feel is fair. Their job, their choice.

 

[cf111]

Nobody strikes for a day never mind 12 days unless there is something seriously rotten with the relationship between themselves and their employer. It will be most inconvenient for me personally if this strike does go ahead as planned, but folk are entitled to take industrial action and I would far rather live in a society where that is possible than one where workers' rights are further eroded.