ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[Ian Cunningham]

I now have images in my mind of WCRC being drafted in to run an Edinburgh - Glasgow shuttle using their battered mk1s during COP26...

With a properly claggy 37 to haul them

 

[LoogaBarooga]

Heard the Transport minister on the news earlier. A much more conciliatory tone than his interview on BBC Scotland yesterday morning. Hopefully this thing will get sorted and we can all just move on.

 

[Class83]

Scotrail clearly have a mismatch between their income and expenditure. So they either need more income or less expenditure.

More income would require either:
Higher fares: unlikely as trains are already expensive compared to buses or the marginal cost of driving.
More passengers: but unless and until normal working and socialising patterns are re-established that will be difficult.
Increased taxpayer subsidy: this is already quite high and has increased during covid, government spending is limited and it is likely to return to the long term average.


Cutting costs can come from

Fewer services: will reduce energy costs, staffing costs (either via less overtime or redundancies) and less distance based maintenance on trains. Though reducing services may further reduce passenger numbers and hence reduce income, not a good idea.
Infrastructure maintenance: Could possibly be made more efficient, but I'd hope this already happens. Closing less used lines would save money but is politically unpopular, see Beeching.
Rolling Stock Costs: Much of this will be on long term contracts, but potential to renew leases on older trains if cheaper. Hopefully GB rail might introduce a more planned approach to rolling stock acquisition, but that will be long term. Again passengers who have a choice between rail and bus or car will expect a reasonable standard of comfort.
Staffing Costs: Either reduce the total number of staff by automation; replace ticket offices with ticket machines, conductors with DOO, computerised signalling centres and more efficient working practices. Or, control the cost of the current number of staff by limiting increases in pay and pensions.

Now I understand that conductors would like more money, I would like more money. But at the moment the rail industry is the tolerance of the government away from being bankrupt. Teachers, Police Officers, the Armed Forces and Council Workers are looking at a pay freeze. If the conductors feel that their current package of pay and pension is worse than they could get in another industry, there are plenty of lorry and van driver jobs, retail and warehouse jobs, hospitality and care worker jobs available right now. The reality is if they resigned Scotrail would have plenty of applicants for the jobs and be trained in under a year. In most industries there are good and bad years for pay, this is a good year for lorry drivers, it's not a good year for railway staff. Some years will be the other way round, there is no rational basis for railway staff to be upset about a limited pay rise this year.

 

[68000]

To get more income, it would be nice if ScotRail actually collect fares for the trains that are running. They need to start thinking about rolling out more ticket gates at stations

 

[LoogaBarooga]

Scotrail clearly have a mismatch between their income and expenditure. So they either need more income or less expenditure.

More income would require either:
Higher fares: unlikely as trains are already expensive compared to buses or the marginal cost of driving.
More passengers: but unless and until normal working and socialising patterns are re-established that will be difficult.
Increased taxpayer subsidy: this is already quite high and has increased during covid, government spending is limited and it is likely to return to the long term average.


Cutting costs can come from

Fewer services: will reduce energy costs, staffing costs (either via less overtime or redundancies) and less distance based maintenance on trains. Though reducing services may further reduce passenger numbers and hence reduce income, not a good idea.
Infrastructure maintenance: Could possibly be made more efficient, but I'd hope this already happens. Closing less used lines would save money but is politically unpopular, see Beeching.
Rolling Stock Costs: Much of this will be on long term contracts, but potential to renew leases on older trains if cheaper. Hopefully GB rail might introduce a more planned approach to rolling stock acquisition, but that will be long term. Again passengers who have a choice between rail and bus or car will expect a reasonable standard of comfort.
Staffing Costs: Either reduce the total number of staff by automation; replace ticket offices with ticket machines, conductors with DOO, computerised signalling centres and more efficient working practices. Or, control the cost of the current number of staff by limiting increases in pay and pensions.

Now I understand that conductors would like more money, I would like more money. But at the moment the rail industry is the tolerance of the government away from being bankrupt. Teachers, Police Officers, the Armed Forces and Council Workers are looking at a pay freeze. If the conductors feel that their current package of pay and pension is worse than they could get in another industry, there are plenty of lorry and van driver jobs, retail and warehouse jobs, hospitality and care worker jobs available right now. The reality is if they resigned Scotrail would have plenty of applicants for the jobs and be trained in under a year. In most industries there are good and bad years for pay, this is a good year for lorry drivers, it's not a good year for railway staff. Some years will be the other way round, there is no rational basis for railway staff to be upset about a limited pay rise this year.

A fine year for train drivers though. Lovely wage rise and a rdw enhancement extended.

RMT members actually voted against strike action with regards to a pay rise this year. That seems to have been forgotten about.

This strike is to do with the rdw enhancement. It's not fair to give it to one grade and no others. The offer on the table does nothing to address that and if it was accepted, would leave conductors in a much worse position.

 

[seagull]

This strike is to do with the rdw enhancement. It's not fair to give it to one grade and no others.

Actually... Yes, it is. Enhancements have always varied between grades or roles on the railway, whether it be commission for selling (drivers don't get commission for every red signal they successfully stop at), overtime, Sundays, amount of sick pay at full rate, etc.

Comparing offers to what other roles have been given is a waste of time and achieves nothing. It should be taken in its own right.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

We had the rdw enhancement and it wasn't extended. It's absolutely fair to compare offers.

If there really was no need to extend it because ScotRail had recruited enough staff why not just give us it then? If there wasn't the need for overtime it wouldn't make any difference to the company financially.

 

[och aye]

Perhaps this is a cynical/simplistic way of looking at the situation, but I guess if you're the RMT, the COP26 event is probably one of those rare "opportunities" to get higher wages/better conditions with strike action. I'm guessing the thinking is, that Nicola Sturgeon/Scottish Gov won't want to look "humiliated" in front of the World stage and will give them what they want

 

[Starmill]

To get more income, it would be nice if ScotRail actually collect fares for the trains that are running. They need to start thinking about rolling out more ticket gates at stations

There are very few places where ScotRail could benefit from the installation of automatic ticket gates though. The only real ones that would help are the remaining platforms they often use at Edinburgh which are ungated, but these are technically so difficult that it's simply not worth it.

A large number of secondary stations already have ticket gates in Scotland, like Bathgate and Edinburgh Gateway. There wouldn't be much point in gating Falkirk High if you didn't also gate Falkirk Grahmston and Camelon, and not much point im gating Dumbarton Central without also gating Dumbarton East and Dalreoch.

I think that Motherwell and Ayr will have ticket gates included eventually as a part of long-term redevelopments at those locations, which perhaps leaves Kilmarnock, Inverkeithing and Helensburgh Central as possible priorities, but again overwhelmingly the users of those stations will be going to somewhere else that already has gates.

There's really next to no point in trying to install gates in places like Dingwall or Inverurie.

I have absolutely no idea if ScotRail are contributing to the cost, but Northern's big increase in blocks at Carlisle has probably been helping them more than gates at Dumfries would.

 

[greyman42]

I have been an RMT member for the last 20 odd years and this will be my first actual strike. Let me try to explain why this is such a big issue for members.
We all put our lives at risk to provide transport for the people who were classed as key workers.

In what way did you put your life at risk?

 

[380101]

There are very few places where ScotRail could benefit from the installation of automatic ticket gates though. The only real ones that would help are the remaining platforms they often use at Edinburgh which are ungated, but these are technically so difficult that it's simply not worth it.

A large number of secondary stations already have ticket gates in Scotland, like Bathgate and Edinburgh Gateway. There wouldn't be much point in gating Falkirk High if you didn't also gate Falkirk Grahmston and Camelon, and not much point im gating Dumbarton Central without also gating Dumbarton East and Dalreoch.

I think that Motherwell and Ayr will have ticket gates included eventually as a part of long-term redevelopments at those locations, which perhaps leaves Kilmarnock, Inverkeithing and Helensburgh Central as possible priorities, but again overwhelmingly the users of those stations will be going to somewhere else that already has gates.

There's really next to no point in trying to install gates in places like Dingwall or Inverurie.

I have absolutely no idea if ScotRail are contributing to the cost, but Northern's big increase in blocks at Carlisle has probably been helping them more than gates at Dumfries would.

Ayr has had barriers for over 15 years now.

 

[greyman42]

It’s less about overall demand. Glasgow (and in turn the UK as a whole, not to mention the rail network) will become even more of a global laughing stock than it already is if ScotRail is allowed to effectively shut down during the conference when the entire world is watching.

Glasgow, nor the UK is not a global laughing stock and the idea that the entire world will be watching or even taking an interest is wide of the mark. Take China for example.

If you're going to inconvenience the public - to whom you are paid to provide a service, basic decency suggests you explain why. An additional benefit might be to have more public sympathy for your cause, which could only help you politically.

The RMT has never given a hoot about inconveniencing the public or whether they have any public support.

 

[43066]

Glasgow, nor the UK is not a global laughing stock and the idea that the entire world will be watching or even taking an interest is wide of the mark. Take China for example.

Indeed. In fact a sizeable proportion of even the U.K. population will either not know about COP26 at all, or not care about it in the slightest.

 

[Starmill]

Ayr has had barriers for over 15 years now.

It did but I thought they weren't used from 2018 onwards were they because of the hotel issues closing that part of the station? Are they in use today? I confess my last visit to Ayr station was before the pandemic. On that occasion a manual ticket inspection was done and we exited via the car park.

 

[DanNCL]

Ayr has had barriers for over 15 years now.

It did but I thought they weren't used from 2018 onwards were they because of the hotel issues closing that part of the station? Are they in use today? I confess my last visit to Ayr station was before the pandemic. On that occasion a manual ticket inspection was done and we exited via the car park.

The barriers at Ayr are still out of use. Until the hotel has been sorted out they'll remain out of use as everyone has to use the temporary exit into the car park. On my most recent visit to Ayr in July, a manual ticket check was done on the way back into the station, but not when I exited earlier in the day.

 

[clc]

It did but I thought they weren't used from 2018 onwards were they because of the hotel issues closing that part of the station? Are they in use today? I confess my last visit to Ayr station was before the pandemic. On that occasion a manual ticket inspection was done and we exited via the car park.

The station road entrance has gates but they are often open. The temporary entrance on the other side doesn’t have gates and more often than not there are no staff checking tickets.

 

[380101]

The barriers at Ayr are still out of use. Until the hotel has been sorted out they'll remain out of use as everyone has to use the temporary exit into the car park. On my most recent visit to Ayr in July, a manual ticket check was done on the way back into the station, but not when I exited earlier in the day.

Platform 4 barriers still in use when there's enough staff available.

 

[Starmill]

The station road entrance has gates but they are often open. The temporary entrance on the other side doesn’t have gates and more often than not there are no staff checking tickets.

I see. Perhaps I was wrong that this is being rectified, it's unclear from Google searching. Ayr clearly is the sort of location where gate coverage is a priority.

 

[Bodiddly]

In what way did you put your life at risk?

By coming to my place of work during a serious respiratory virus pandemic, mixing with lots of other people before any vaccines were even in production. The same way anyone who worked through the Pandemic were putting their lives at risk. It may have escaped your notice that a large number of front line staff in various industries have died in the last couple of years.
What a stupid, ignorant reply.

 

[Scotrail314209]

There are very few places where ScotRail could benefit from the installation of automatic ticket gates though. The only real ones that would help are the remaining platforms they often use at Edinburgh which are ungated, but these are technically so difficult that it's simply not worth it.

A large number of secondary stations already have ticket gates in Scotland, like Bathgate and Edinburgh Gateway. There wouldn't be much point in gating Falkirk High if you didn't also gate Falkirk Grahmston and Camelon, and not much point im gating Dumbarton Central without also gating Dumbarton East and Dalreoch.

I think that Motherwell and Ayr will have ticket gates included eventually as a part of long-term redevelopments at those locations, which perhaps leaves Kilmarnock, Inverkeithing and Helensburgh Central as possible priorities, but again overwhelmingly the users of those stations will be going to somewhere else that already has gates.

There's really next to no point in trying to install gates in places like Dingwall or Inverurie.

I have absolutely no idea if ScotRail are contributing to the cost, but Northern's big increase in blocks at Carlisle has probably been helping them more than gates at Dumfries would.

You could probably gate Paisley Gilmour Street, since that has frequent revenue checks.

 

[greyman42]

By coming to my place of work during a serious respiratory virus pandemic, mixing with lots of other people before any vaccines were even in production. The same way anyone who worked through the Pandemic were putting their lives at risk. It may have escaped your notice that a large number of front line staff in various industries have died in the last couple of years.
What a stupid, ignorant reply.

Over 99.9 % of people who caught Covid did not die so i do not think my question was stupid or ignorant.

 

[Starmill]

Over 99.9 % of people who caught Covid did not die so i do not think my question was stupid or ignorant.

It depends on how you quantify risk I think.

All public front line workers were at a higher risk level than office staff who mostly worked alone, at home. I don't think anyone could possibly disagree. But how much higher it was exactly is never going to be easily quantified.

Also, while the argument is with merit, it applies equally to all front-line workers in publicly funded roles, so obviously that includes train crews, station staff, and a few others, but it also includes almost all school staff, public refuse collectors, many local authority staff, police officers and some support roles, etc etc etc. The total number must run to several million, and any case for railway workers based on the virus risk would go for them all. The government could, and in my view absolutely should, grant all of those people a small above-inflation pay rise, say CPIH+1.5%. Somehow I don't think the Conservatives will do though. The cost would be significant, but worth it in my view.

The year to August 2021 CPIH figure was 3.0%, so this suggestion would produce annualised +4.5% which sounds pretty reasonable to me.

 

[Bodiddly]

Over 99.9 % of people who caught Covid did not die so i do not think my question was stupid or ignorant.

An ignorant reply to a previous ignorant reply.

 

[kkong]

An ignorant reply to a previous ignorant reply.

Any comment to make on post #1,525 ?

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

Is this a sign of things to come?

With the railways being effectively nationalised in Scotland railway staff will be working for the Government. Where the rest of the public sector is being denied pay increases, will government employed rail staff still be able to ask for pay rises? Will the public have much sympathy where government medical staff carry on with 0.5% but government railway workers are holding the country up because they didn't get what they wanted?

 

[Bodiddly]

Any comment to make on post #1,525 ?

Safe zones were set up in response to the Pandemic. The only way onboard staff could be protected from the threat of Covid was to isolate them from the threat. Most, if not all workplaces set up safe zones. To travel on the trains during the height of the Pandemic as a passenger was completely at their own risk. I understand that the passengers that had to use public transport during the Pandemic were putting themselves at risk but they were not forced to travel by train. Staff had to travel on trains and as key workers, they had no choice but to continue their work.
Please understand, I am not saying railway staff were the only ones at risk, every person who had to leave their homes to attend work were at risk.
Let's not turn this into some kind of workplace competition.

 

[Newtraveller58]

The bit I really don’t get, is why if conditions at ScotRail are so bad at the moment, staff aren’t leaving in droves to join other industries. As I understand it, ScotRail are managing to fill vacancies and are getting plenty of applications.

 

[kkong]

To travel on the trains during the height of the Pandemic as a passenger was completely at their own risk. I understand that the passengers that had to use public transport during the Pandemic were putting themselves at risk but they were not forced to travel by train.

My recollection is that the trains were only kept running to transport "key workers" and everyone else were instructed not to travel?

So it is fair to assume that those passengers on the train were "key workers" and had no choice but to use the train due to lack of other transport options.

So it would appear that some "key workers" are less equal than other "key workers" in terms of "safe zones" on the train.

 

[the sniper]

The bit I really don’t get, is why if conditions at ScotRail are so bad at the moment, staff aren’t leaving in droves to join other industries. As I understand it, ScotRail are managing to fill vacancies and are getting plenty of applications.

Vacancies? I thought they were fully staffed. People must be leaving.

 

[Kite159]

I see. Perhaps I was wrong that this is being rectified, it's unclear from Google searching. Ayr clearly is the sort of location where gate coverage is a priority.

But then any members of the "pay when challenged" community will try and use trains which call at Newton on Ayr as an alternative if it means a lesser chance of having to pay (similar to Dumbarton)