ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[Starmill]

But then any members of the "pay when challenged" community will try and use trains which call at Newton on Ayr as an alternative if it means a lesser chance of having to pay (similar to Dumbarton)

Newton-on-Ayr certainly would have some possibility to function in a similar way to Dalreoch or Dumbarton East yes, although it's a little further away.

 

[InOban]

I would love to see hard data on which essential workers were actually at most risk. I would hazard a guess that bus drivers? I would assume that the greatest risk to train crew would be if they visited their mess room.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

I would love to see hard data on which essential workers were actually at most risk. I would hazard a guess that bus drivers? I would assume that the greatest risk to train crew would be if they visited their mess room.

What do you do for a living?

 

[Bodiddly]

My recollection is that the trains were only kept running to transport "key workers" and everyone else were instructed not to travel?

So it is fair to assume that those passengers on the train were "key workers" and had no choice but to use the train due to lack of other transport options.

So it would appear that some "key workers" are less equal than other "key workers" in terms of "safe zones" on the train.

Nobody forced key workers to use trains.
Railway employees were classed as key workers and had to work on trains.
See the difference?

 

[Goldfish62]

I would love to see hard data on which essential workers were actually at most risk. I would hazard a guess that bus drivers? I would assume that the greatest risk to train crew would be if they visited their mess room.

I would say that shop workers, care staff and health staff were clearly the most at risk because they were totally exposed.

 

[InOban]

What do you do for a living?

Retired teacher.

 

[GLC]

I would love to see hard data on which essential workers were actually at most risk. I would hazard a guess that bus drivers? I would assume that the greatest risk to train crew would be if they visited their mess room.

The ONS has published a breakdown of COVID-19 deaths by occupation here https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...w-of-coronavirus-related-deaths-by-occupation only extends to the end of 2020 however

 

[InOban]

Nobody forced key workers to use trains.
Railway employees were classed as key workers and had to work on trains.
See the difference?

Some key workers, including traincrew as I and some other posters are suggesting, were able to work in a largely covid-safe environment in which the risk of infection was minimal.
Other key workers were genuinely at risk.

 

[maradona10]

Some key workers, including traincrew as I and some other posters are suggesting, were able to work in a largely covid-safe environment in which the risk of infection was minimal.
Other key workers were genuinely at risk.

Train crew weren’t genuinely at risk?

 

[GLC]

Actually it’s not fair to assume that it was just key workers, there has been bampots travelling all throughout without wearing masks. The safe zone was designated and it was within staffs rights to use it, to stop said bampots sitting right next to them without any regard for social distancing. I doubt it was full carriages either, on the trains I worked it was a very small section of a carriage taped off for staff use, I.e other conductors, TEs or drivers when travelling.

On HSTs the entire first class carriage was locked out and used only by Scotrail staff

 

[maradona10]

Never knew that, lucky them

 

[InOban]

Train crew weren’t genuinely at risk?

Obviously the driver is safe in the cab, and AIUI the other onboard staff remained in one place and weren't interacting with passengers, so, compared with other essential workers, perhaps you can explain how they were at risk? Certainly compared with, say, supermarket staff.

 

[maradona10]

Obviously the driver is safe in the cab, and AIUI the other onboard staff remained in one place and weren't interacting with passengers, so, compared with other essential workers, perhaps you can explain how they were at risk? Certainly compared with, say, supermarket staff.

This takes the biscuit for me. I can handle people saying we don’t deserve pay rises in a pandemic but I cannot handle people saying that we weren’t even at risk. Wow. Absolutely mind blowing attitude some people have on here towards rail staff. And on that note I won’t be posting again on here for a long long time.

 

[Bodiddly]

This takes the biscuit for me. I can handle people saying we don’t deserve pay rises in a pandemic but I cannot handle people saying that we weren’t even at risk. Wow. Absolutely mind blowing attitude some people have on here towards rail staff. And on that note I won’t be posting again on here for a long long time.

Yes, and I'll be joining you with that. I'm genuinely gobsmacked with the attitude of some people on a railway forum towards railway staff.
I'll continue to do my job because it's what I'm good at. I'm a railwaymen and will contribute to the running of the railway in this country no matter what happens.
It's not all about money.

 

[PaulMc7]

There seems to be a lot of outrage from 2 replies yet based on a reply that didn't exactly say train staff were 100% safe from Covid. Train staff were certainly far more protected from Covid than other key workers and that's something that can't really be denied. We haven't exactly been encouraged back onto trains and the first lockdown was 19 months ago. Even now train staff aren't exactly the most in danger to Covid.

Train staff on both safety from Covid and pay conditions are far from the worst off in society. Getting any sort of payrise unless you're in a small minority of companies in the world is actually pretty unrealistic currently. This is why the strikes have continually failed to this point IMO. The 4.7% increase over 2 years is an incredible deal considering the uncertainty in public transport currently.

It's not having a bad attitude against rail staff pointing any of this out either.

If the government didn't put an absolute fortune into the rail industry during Covid it could have resulted in so many services cut and so many job losses too. I bet a lot of people would love to have been in train staffs' shoes during this time. The "hard done by" attitude by RMT and clearly some members is probably insulting to a lot of people. Sometimes perspective goes a long way. You could unemployed or struggling for cash completely like some.

"The race to the bottom" argument also doesn't really work in this case either considering being employed in rail work in any form currently means you're nowhere near the bottom.

 

[43066]

A fine year for train drivers though. Lovely wage rise and a rdw enhancement extended.

RMT members actually voted against strike action with regards to a pay rise this year. That seems to have been forgotten about.

This strike is to do with the rdw enhancement. It's not fair to give it to one grade and no others. The offer on the table does nothing to address that and if it was accepted, would leave conductors in a much worse position.

Surely the key point to highlight here is that this dispute isn’t about the guards simply being greedy and asking for more money. It’s about an agreement, entered into in good faith by the union, being reneged upon by the company.

For what it’s worth, as traincrew myself, I don’t think the argument: “it’s different for other grades, therefore it’s unfair” holds much water, given we all have different Ts and Cs and salaries to begin with. If anything it confuses the issue.

The 4.7% increase over 2 years is an incredible deal considering the uncertainty in public transport currently.

The issue isn’t so much the amount of the pay offer, as what is potentially being sold in return. 4.7% is a good headline figure for sure, but it will mean nothing in five or ten years, whereas changed Ts snd Cs will be felt forevermore.

 

[JamesT]

Surely the key point to highlight here is that this dispute isn’t about the guards simply being greedy and asking for more money. It’s about an agreement, entered into in good faith by the union, being reneged upon by the company.

I may have lost track as there seem to be various points in dispute, but wasn’t this an agreement that the enhancement was conditional on whether the grade was under strength or not? It was intended to end when sufficient numbers of new guards had been hired, which the company claim has been done. Is there any proof they haven’t actually hired that many, or the agreement didn’t contain that condition?

 

[LoogaBarooga]

Retired teacher.

Covid was considered to be risky enough to close every school in the country for months.

Bit of a cheek you having a pop at train crew for saying they were at risk.

 

[JamesT]

Covid was considered to be risky enough to close every school in the country for months.

Bit of a cheek you having a pop at train crew for saying they were at risk.

Weren’t the schools still open for the offspring of key workers whilst they were closed for everyone else?

 

[Falcon1200]

I may have lost track as there seem to be various points in dispute, but wasn’t this an agreement that the enhancement was conditional on whether the grade was under strength or not? It was intended to end when sufficient numbers of new guards had been hired, which the company claim has been done. Is there any proof they haven’t actually hired that many, or the agreement didn’t contain that condition?

This is the point that I too do not understand, and as far as I can see neither the RMT or Scotrail have clarified it; Perhaps the wording of the original agreement was imprecise enough to enable both sides to believe and argue that they are right ?

I salute and thank those rail workers who kept the system going during the pandemic, and of course they deserve recognition in the form of a decent pay rise. But in the current circumstances, both in the rail industry and more generally, 4.7% over two years does sound realistic, especially as the only source of funding is either fare rises or the taxpayer. Bearing that in mind it is not surprising that the employer expects compromise from the employee side; From what I can see, despite the RMT's demands for negotiation, they are the ones refusing to budge on their demands !

 

[LoogaBarooga]

Weren’t the schools still open for the offspring of key workers whilst they were closed for everyone else?

Yeah I suppose you're right actually. Schools that normally had hundreds of children in them had half a dozen.

 

[LowLevel]

Yeah I suppose you're right actually. Schools that normally had hundreds of children in them had half a dozen.

Rather like many trains, really. It would have been more cost effective to shut much of the network down and provide anyone who really needed to travel with a taxi and support that industry instead.

School staff by definition are usually pretty close to the kids in their care. I watched no end of my colleagues screeching at people for attempting to effectively social distance from other passengers by using one of the four doors on the train and causing pile ups by sending them back to the other end of the coach.

To this day some aren't bothering to check tickets.

There was pretty much no risk at all to hanging out in a train cab all day long avoiding people. The same frit people would then inevitably be chatting to their mates in mess rooms and be surprised when they either caught COVID or set off mass pings, and then usually blame it on the largely non existent passengers. And yes, there were the usual crack heads travelling around too but they're normally only too happy to stay away from the conductor even if they'll pay if asked.

I'll allow in some areas it was a bit different but for the most part the COVID period was like a holiday camp for traincrew.

 

[yorkie]

Yeah I suppose you're right actually. Schools that normally had hundreds of children in them had half a dozen.

Only for some of the last 19 months, and that was purely to reduce community spread to reduce the burden on the health service; the rest of the time those of us who work in schools have been up close to hundreds of people and 95% of us just got/get on with it (the minority that make a fuss can be ignored as unrepresentative)

Your argument will not win over the public but you are entitled to your views and entitled to think you are right, so we will agree to disagree and hopefully that is the end of that.

If you (or anyone else) wishes to debate it further please use the Covid section (edit: you do, so the thread is at https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...to-work-at-massive-risk-in-march-2020.223606/ )

Can we stick to just discussing the ScotRail Industrial Relations issues in this thread please

 

[320320]

I may have lost track as there seem to be various points in dispute, but wasn’t this an agreement that the enhancement was conditional on whether the grade was under strength or not? It was intended to end when sufficient numbers of new guards had been hired, which the company claim has been done. Is there any proof they haven’t actually hired that many, or the agreement didn’t contain that condition?

Without posting weekly rosters I don’t think you can prove that scotrail haven’t hired enough staff but I can tell you that on the north Clyde there are RTMs out on trains every morning. The rest of the day and especially in the evening and late night there are lots of trains operating without a second person on board.

If scotrail are claiming to have recruited enough staff why don’t they tell the union that a RDW agreement is no longer required or agree to pay the enhancement, given that the amount paid out in RDW would be negligible.

 

[Taunton]

I think we’re starting to see a creeping view from those in power that they no longer view the railways as essential as they once did.

The key thing is not the politicians viewing the railway as no longer "essential", but the passengers.

Already there's been no service on a Sunday for sufficiently long that people have devised their own alternatives. Most of them will not be back, so my hunch is that Scotland will revert to a 6-day week railway. I get the feeling that quite a proportion of those on here feel this would be "welcome" for them, and the track engineers probably say Wonderful. Of course, you lose the out-Friday, home-Sunday traffic as well, the shift workers who do Wednesday to Sunday, etc. If strikes move to weekdays as well the same will apply. It was always a minority transport system anyway.

Thinking that after a substantial strike everything will come back as normal is just unrealistic. There are a range of rail operators around the world who just gave up completely after a major strike, because the onetime customers had moved on in life. The S-Bahn network across West Berlin in the 1980s is just one example. Whole railways in the USA shut down and were ripped up for scrap after a strike, such as the Rock Island. People find alternatives, and all the synergy of past marketing campaigns and established usage is lost.

By the way, don't think the Climate Conference will notice. All the key attendees who the press focus on will come by air. The delegates will be taken to/from their hotels in chauffered electric cars. The railway will be an irrelevance, operating or not.

 

[Horizon22]

But on the other hand it could be seen as a strategic error by the RMT not to put the offer to members especially as it's now expecting a huge commitment from them to strike for 12 days. The Scottish government now has something concrete to bash the RMT with, which wouldn't have been the case had members been allowed to formally reject the offer.

It could be an error but time will tell. The Southern guards dispute ended up this way with successively better offers being batted away and then nothing once DOO came in. (I appreciate the reasoning for this strike is different).

 

[Carntyne]

Without posting weekly rosters I don’t think you can prove that scotrail haven’t hired enough staff but I can tell you that on the north Clyde there are RTMs out on trains every morning. The rest of the day and especially in the evening and late night there are lots of trains operating without a second person on board.

If scotrail are claiming to have recruited enough staff why don’t they tell the union that a RDW agreement is no longer required or agree to pay the enhancement, given that the amount paid out in RDW would be negligible.

Why would you agree to do something that isn't needed?

Still all quiet from the RMT about signing up to a time-limited deal then apparently being surprised it was time-limited, given it's supposedly the heart of the issue.

 

[320320]

Why would you agree to do something that isn't needed?

Because this is the main reason there have been strikes since March in the first place and by agreeing to pay an enhancement they would remove the main reason for striking instantly.
If they don’t need it then the amount agreed would be irrelevant as they’d never need to pay it anyway.

Still all quiet from the RMT about signing up to a time-limited deal then apparently being surprised it was time-limited, given it's supposedly the heart of the issue.

When did scotrail confirm that all vacancies have been filled and that they no longer require a RDW agreement to run the timetabled service without cancellation?

 

[Carntyne]

When did scotrail confirm that all vacancies have been filled and that they no longer require a RDW agreement to run the timetabled service without cancellation?

We must assume ScotRail and RMT had some discussion or there would be no dispute?

 

[GALLANTON]

Because this is the main reason there have been strikes since March in the first place and by agreeing to pay an enhancement they would remove the main reason for striking instantly.
If they don’t need it then the amount agreed would be irrelevant as they’d never need to pay it anyway.



When did scotrail confirm that all vacancies have been filled and that they no longer require a RDW agreement to run the timetabled service without cancellation?

If they haven't filled all vacancies then why has the agreement ended? You seem to know more than your letting on so why don't you enlighten us as to what's actually happening.