Scotrail Inter8city to Dumfries?

[ScotTrains]

With Dumfries pushing for city status again, could there be an argument to improve rail services to match that of other Scottish cities if the status is granted?

Rail services are currently poor with slow and infrequent services between Carlisle and Glasgow.

I'm thinking of the possibility of some Scotrail HST services stopping at key locations coinciding with infrastructure and line speed improvements.

It would provide improved comfort, catering, 1st class provision and reduced journey times for the new city, likely to increases both business and tourist traffic. It would also improve opportunities for other large towns along the route eg Barrhead, Kilmarnock, Cumnock, Annan.
The 5 car 221's often travel down the GSW line during WCML engineering works so I don't think a mini HST would have any issue.

 

[hexagon789]

With Dumfries pushing for city status again, could there be an argument to improve rail services to match that of other Scottish cities if the status is granted?

Rail services are currently poor with slow and infrequent services between Carlisle and Glasgow.

I'm thinking of the possibility of some Scotrail HST services stopping at key locations coinciding with infrastructure and line speed improvements.

It would provide improved comfort, catering, 1st class provision and reduced journey times for the new city, likely to increases both business and tourist traffic. It would also improve opportunities for other large towns along the route eg Barrhead, Kilmarnock, Cumnock, Annan.
The 5 car 221's often travel down the GSW line during WCML engineering works so I don't think a mini HST would have any issue.

HSTs have been diverted down the GSW in the 1990s at least, so probably issues with them running down the route if that's what you mean?

While I would love to see an improved service south of Kilmarnock, I'm not entirely convinced of the viability of a full blown high-quality InterCity service to compete with the WCML.

The line was to be upgraded to 90mph (and singled throughout at the same time south of Barrhead beyond the already singled sections) in the mid-1980s to permit faster journey times, but this of course never happened.

 

[JRT]

In connection with other threads, an idea I and probably others think a
Leeds – Settle – Carlisle – Dumfries – Glasgow train would be useful, especially if limited stop.

 

[Ianno87]

In connection with other threads, an idea I and probably others think a
Leeds – Settle – Carlisle – Dumfries – Glasgow train would be useful, especially if limited stop.

**Leeds-Glasgow KLAXON Sounds**

 

[Mcr Warrior]

**Leeds-Glasgow KLAXON Sounds**

Which maybe can't be heard (for one reason or another) when passing through the Cononley area?

 

[JonathanH]

If this is just a ruse to get HSTs on the Glasgow & South Western Line it isn't going to happen because the facilities to support it (eg depot stabling) just aren't in the right place.

That doesn't mean that there wouldn't be merit in trying to improve the service on the Dumfries line but it has to be recognised that it essentially passes through loads of countryside and there is already a main line from Carlisle to Glasgow. Hence, the scope and justification for improving it is relatively limited, especially whilst it only supports a train every three hours.

From Kilmarnock north, there isn't really much scope for cutting out Kilmaurs, Stewarton, Dunlop and Barrhead given the single track layout is largely designed around the current level of service. When long distance trains have been diverted that way, it has sometimes meant a reduction in service at those stations.

 

[swt_passenger]

If it’s a way of improving a service maybe they should make Reston a city…

 

[Mcr Warrior]

If it’s a way of improving a service maybe they should make Reston a city…

Be a right old diversion for the same train to serve Dumfries as well.

 

[CBlue]

If it's going on a big diversion as it is, surely it won't hurt for it to go a little further South to Benwick. No practical reason other than I'd like to see HST's around here.

 

[JonathanH]

What exactly would be the business case for a GSW upgrade in any case? I can't think of one.

Dumfries and Annan have almost an hourly service to Carlisle. Dumfries is over 80 miles from Glasgow and has a population of under 40,000. Kilmarnock is 90 miles from Carlisle. The settlements in between are fairly small. There is already a fast route between Glasgow and Carlisle for through traffic. Only about 150,000 live in the whole of Dumfries and Galloway. What new traffic is an upgrade going to bring to the railway?

 

[D6130]

While I would love to see an improved service south of Kilmarnock, I'm not entirely convinced of the viability of a full blown high-quality InterCity service to compete with the WCML.

In fairness, I don't think we're looking at competition for the WCML. Such a service on the G&SW would be aimed at a different market....primarily business and leisure travellers to and from the line's three main population centres, Annan, Dumfries and Kilmarnock. Despite Scotrail's optomistic branding, I would consider the 'Inter7City' services to be more of a high-quality inter-regional express service.

 

[BrianW]

If being a city is some kind of criterion for a better service, I am looking forward to seeing the proposals for Ripon and St David's, and Reston City.

 

[D6130]

If being a city is some kind of criterion for a better service, I am looking forward to seeing the proposals for Ripon and St David's, and Reston City.

Yes indeed....and likewise St Asaph and St Andrews!

 

[Starmill]

What exactly would be the business case for a GSW upgrade in any case? I can't think of one.

Eventually the route will need to be upgraded or closed. There isn't going to be a practical alternative to electrification for decarbonising this sort of service within the timescale of our carbon reduction targets.

As a long term plan, mothballing Dumfries to Kilmarnock, running an electric coach service from Kilmarnock to Lockerbie via Dumfries calling all stations, and electrification of the railway between Gretna Jn and Dumfries with 2tph shuttle to Carlisle is probably pretty sensible. Passengers for Edinburgh and Glasgow would have a choice of bus connections then, or the faster electric train to Carlisle for a connection. Ain't happening though...

 

[JonathanH]

As a long term plan, mothballing Dumfries to Kilmarnock, running an electric coach service from Kilmarnock to Lockerbie via Dumfries calling all stations, and electrification of the railway between Gretna Jn and Dumfries with 2tph shuttle to Carlisle is probably pretty sensible.

Maybe this is where battery traction works though - electrify Kilmarnock to Barrhead and Gretna Junction to Dumfries and interwork the shuttle journeys on these sections of the route with the services that do the whole line to give time to charge. If buses can electric so can trains.

However, the idea that there is going to be a large increase in footfall from Dumfries and Annan to Glasgow and Kilmarnock to Dumfries and Carlisle is quite optimistic.

 

[XAM2175]

What exactly would be the business case for a GSW upgrade in any case? I can't think of one.

Eventually the route will need to be upgraded or closed. There isn't going to be a practical alternative to electrification for decarbonising this sort of service within the timescale of our carbon reduction targets.

The Scottish Government Rail Services Decarbonisation Action Plan from July last year has this at page 37:

South-West Scotland
By 2035 we aim to have an electrified route between Glasgow via Gretna to Carlisle benefitting commuter flows from New Cumnock to Glasgow and Dumfries to Carlisle. Additionally, by electrifying the line we envisage an enhanced strategic capability for rail freight, and a valuable diversionary route for freight and passenger services during closure of the West Coast Main Line. We will use alternative traction as a transition in the South-West of Scotland until full electrification and also on the line from Ayr to Girvan. At this stage we are planning to run alternative traction permanently from Girvan to Stranraer.

 

[Mag_seven]

In connection with other threads, an idea I and probably others think a
Leeds – Settle – Carlisle – Dumfries – Glasgow train would be useful, especially if limited stop.

Lets go even further and extend it south from Leeds to St Pancras. It can be operated by a rake of Mark I's and a preserved "Peak" and can be called the "Thames Clyde Express".

But seriously a G&SW route upgrade is what is required with redoubling and line speed improvements coupled with new rolling stock.

 

[d9009alycidon]

I think that with East Kilbride and Barrhead/Kilmarnock electrification pushing forward, there might be some pressure on Scotrail Management to make Central purely electric. As only the GSW and Stranraer services will then be diesel there might be a push to have these services terminate at Kilmarnock for cross platform change into electric services forward to Glasgow, certainly until reliable bi-modes are available . Most Stranraer services already do go via Kilmarnock anyway

 

[Bevan Price]

The Class 156s used on the GSW are now over 30 years old, so consideration about replacements will be needed within the next 10 years or so.
Whilst it might not be economic sense, for operational sense it might be a good idea to re-double the line throughout - and electrify throughout.
Currently, Dumfries to Kilmarnock probably needs only one train per 2 hours, maybe with one or two peak hour additionals. Carlisle to Dumfries hourly is probably also adequate, with possibly a few peak hour additionals.

As suggested above, it could also be used for WCML diversions, provided that the operators were "required" to maintain crew route knowledge.

(To eliminate most of the unelectrified gaps, it might also be sensible to electrify Kilmarnock - Ayr - Girvan, with shuttle trains (battery ?) between Girvan & Stranraer.)

 

[Scotrail314209]

The Class 156s used on the GSW are now over 30 years old, so consideration about replacements will be needed within the next 10 years or so.
Whilst it might not be economic sense, for operational sense it might be a good idea to re-double the line throughout - and electrify throughout.
Currently, Dumfries to Kilmarnock probably needs only one train per 2 hours, maybe with on or two peak hour additionals. Carlisle to Dumfries hourly is probably also adequate, with possibly a few peak hour additionals.

As suggested above, it could also be used for WCML diversions, provided that the operators were "required" to maintain crew route knowledge.

(To eliminate most of the unelectrified gaps, it might also be sensible to electrify Kilmarnock - Ayr - Girvan, with shuttle trains (battery ?) between Girvan & Stranraer.)

I definitely think you could get away with extending one Kilmarnock train per hour down to New Cumnock and turning it around. I know it has a crossover which can't be used for passenger trains, but would it be difficult to get it certified for passenger operation?

 

[D6130]

I definitely think you could get away with extending one Kilmarnock train per hour down to New Cumnock and turning it around. I know it has a crossover which can't be used for passenger trains, but would it be difficult to get it certified for passenger operation?

It would have to be fitted with facing point locks and a running signal in addition to the existing shunting discs.

 

[route101]

I definitely think you could get away with extending one Kilmarnock train per hour down to New Cumnock and turning it around. I know it has a crossover which can't be used for passenger trains, but would it be difficult to get it certified for passenger operation?

There is or was a Glasgow Central to New Cumnock terminator.

Was the plan to make Glasgow to Carlisle hourly.

 

[mrgreen]

GSW must be a good candidate for a battery/25kV service passenger service, with a good run of OHLE at both ends of the route giving plenty of time to recharge. You might need to shorten the gap between Kilmarnock and Gretna with some OHL. There's a National Grid substation at Dumfries and, parallel to the railway, chunky transmission lines. These connect to the former nuclear power station at Chapelcross nearby and the Anglo-Scottish transmission lines at Gretna. .

 

[Irascible]

I was somewhat bemused to check trains from the SW to Dumfries the other day & discover it's faster via London, so I'd sign up for anything that improves the situation...

 

[JonathanH]

I was somewhat bemused to check trains from the SW to Dumfries the other day & discover it's faster via London, so I'd sign up for anything that improves the situation...

That issue isn't going to be improved by anything built between Glasgow and Carlisle though or through trains to that line which disappear off down a secondary line south (or east) of Carlisle so is probably well outside the scope of this discussion.

 

[BrianW]

That issue isn't going to be improved by anything built between Glasgow and Carlisle though or through trains to that line which disappear off down a secondary line south (or east) of Carlisle so is probably well outside the scope of this discussion.

Seems to me well within scope. What train services does a City of Dumfries require- to/from, how often ... Interesting comparisons with cities of Truro, Plymouth, Exeter, Bristol, Gloucester in SW England.

 

[JonathanH]

What train services does a City of Dumfries require- to/from, how often ...

Yes
(a) A regular, reliable connection to the nearby rail interchange 30 miles away from where there are good long distance connections, and
(b) A direct connection to the major city 80 miles away commensurate with demand for a journey of that length through sparsely populated countryside for three quarters of the distance and competing demands for capacity north of there.

Interesting comparisons with cities of Truro, Plymouth, Exeter, Bristol, Gloucester in SW England.

Not really - 200,000 more people live in Plymouth, 400,000 more people live in Bristol - a completely different geographical relationship with 'travel to work' areas and needs about travel to the rest of the country.

 

[BrianW]

Yes
(a) A regular, reliable connection to the nearby rail interchange 30 miles away from where there are good long distance connections, and
(b) A direct connection to the major city 80 miles away commensurate with demand for a journey of that length through sparsely populated countryside for three quarters of the distance and competing demands for capacity north of there.


Not really - 200,000 more people live in Plymouth, 400,000 more people live in Bristol - a completely different geographical relationship with 'travel to work' areas and needs about travel to the rest of the country.

Dumfries population 31,600; Dumfries and Galloway 148,000 https://www.dumfries-and-galloway.co.uk › facts › info
Dumfries broadly similar pop to City of Stroud 32,670 or City of Yate (Glos) 27,603; Newark 37,000; Retford 22,000; Reston 450.
I agree there are so many factors to consider- a thankless task.