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ScotRail- Rail as you go app

flythetube

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According to “The Scotsman” newspaper, Scotrail is working on an app which will allow payment upon completion of your journey by recognising your destination.

The article is behind a paywall so could not explore further nor seeing how close it is to April Fools Day ascertain as to whether this is a genuine concept or not.

If anyone has access to the article maybe they could share the details?

Thanks.
 
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Bletchleyite

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SBB has something like that, so it's definitely possible. You press a start button on the app then it detects via location services which trains you used and charges accordingly.
 

dm1

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I would assume it would be similar and/or based on Fairtiq.

If your fares structure isn't extensively based on advance fares, then it works pretty well and is in use in numerous places in Europe.
 
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greatkingrat

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ScotRail passengers could travel using a new phone app that automatically charges them for journeys without the need to buy tickets under plans being devised by the operator.
The as-yet unnamed system, which could be called Rail as You Go, is aimed by the Scottish Government-owned firm at making paying for train travel even easier than with electronic “mTickets” on its existing app.
Passengers would just have to enter their destination, which would be verified via GPS as they alighted at the arrival station.
However, the Scottish Conservatives called for ScotRail to go further and introduce a “tap in-tap out” system using bank cards, similar to those used by bus companies such as First Glasgow and on the London Underground. The party wants buses and other public transport included too.
ScotRail is testing the concept of the new app on selected passengers, Scotland on Sunday has learned.
It told those taking part: "ScotRail is working on a new “pay as you go”-type product.
"Customers will download an app and fill in their preferred payment method – they’ll just do this once.
"When the customer arrives at the station, they’ll tap ‘Begin Journey’ on the app, and confirm their location via a prompt.
"A barcode pass will then be generated – this is basically the ticket for travel, and that’s what’s used to pass through the station gate and show the ticket examiners.
"There’s no further action to be taken after that. The app will automatically recognise the end of your journey and will check for the cheapest fare available before taking payment.”
ScotRail said staff would test it first, followed by some passengers.
Interim commercial director Claire Dickie said: “The new app takes mTickets a step further by removing the need to pre-purchase a ticket, enhancing the journey experience for our customers.
“We are in the very early stages of testing its functionality, before we move to an initial set of invited customers who will trial the app.
“The barcode generated by the app means customers would automatically be charged the cheapest fare based on the journey taken.”
Scottish Conservatives transport spokesperson Graham Simpson, who offered to take part in the trial, said: “This sounds interesting, although it is not too different to the ScotRail app at the moment in that you would still need to use your phone to tap in and out of certain stations.
“We have been calling for a system where you could tap in and out using your bank card, therefore doing away with the need to have an app.
“Transport Scotland should be more ambitious though, and go to companies who can provide multi-modal apps working along similar lines.
"That's where we need to get to – and the technology exists. But anything that makes life easier for passengers is worth exploring.”
Scottish Labour transport spokesperson Alex Rowley said “Boosting train use will deliver huge environmental and economic benefits and any efforts to make rail travel more convenient is welcome.
“It is essential that this new system gives passengers the cheapest possible fares so no-one is left out of pocket.
“The SNP must work with ScotRail to deliver the accessible, reliable and affordable rail system Scotland needs.”
 

Adam Williams

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GPS locations from a phone should be treated as user input. I don't see how you can trust at all that the customer isn't spoofing the location, so this will simply create a system with even more attack surface than the current status quo. I hope they don't become complacent and feel that they can leave stations unbarriered/cut back on on-train revenue inspection due to this sort of technology.

Unfortunately, Scotrail have had an obsession with client-side "security" theatre for a long time. Nobody else has held on to mTickets for this long!
 

Benjwri

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GPS locations from a phone should be treated as user input. I don't see how you can trust at all that the customer isn't spoofing the location, so this will simply create a system with even more attack surface than the current status quo. I hope they don't become complacent and feel that they can leave stations unbarriered/cut back on on-train revenue inspection due to this sort of technology.

Unfortunately, Scotrail have had an obsession with client-side "security" theatre for a long time. Nobody else has held on to mTickets for this long!
Although it has worked in Austria and Switzerland, and is far less open to abuse than other ticketing types. Not to mention, given the person or machine checking a ticket does know where they are, a simple cross check of those two values will reveal if such an exploit is being used. At that point it becomes no more user input than a customer etering the next station on the line when short faring, and is far less accessible to be easily abused, requiring a fairly detailed knowledge of how to exploit phones.
 

Gaelan

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GPS locations from a phone should be treated as user input. I don't see how you can trust at all that the customer isn't spoofing the location, so this will simply create a system with even more attack surface than the current status quo. I hope they don't become complacent and feel that they can leave stations unbarriered/cut back on on-train revenue inspection due to this sort of technology.

Unfortunately, Scotrail have had an obsession with client-side "security" theatre for a long time. Nobody else has held on to mTickets for this long!
To be fair, it's no more user input than the destination input on a TVM - and can be checked in the same way. If the app reports destination every few minutes, and there's stiff penalties for being caught by a ticket inspector shortly after your app reports a location implausibly far from where the inspector found you, it's probably a comparable level of risk to current ticketing systems. If barriers do this as well, it's essentially the same security profile as an Oyster card.

(Writing this now, I can think of a few wrinkles - what if your batter/network/GPS fails and you don't report for a while? - but I don't think it's insurmountable with some leniency and some folks on the backend looking for statistical outliers.)
 

Bill57p9

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Interesting.
Given it claims to offer the cheapest fares, I wonder whether it supports "kids for a quid", which is quietly unavailable from the existing app - thus not offering the cheapest fares....
 

Kite159

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Didn't Chiltern once try something similar with using mobile location data to work out how much to charge a passenger?
 

rg177

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I've tried FairTIQ in Switzerland and it worked incredibly well. Though I only did it for a bus journey while Interrailing.

I can see this working well if ScotRail permanently move to a flat fare structure (ie no Peak/Off-Peak).

This is, so long as GPS data is accurate *enough*. The bus I caught was one that flung itself around some rural forested roads. My GPS definitely wasn't keeping up the whole time but presumably joined up enough dots to know where I was.
 

hexagon789

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Interesting.
Given it claims to offer the cheapest fares, I wonder whether it supports "kids for a quid", which is quietly unavailable from the existing app - thus not offering the cheapest fares....
Kids for a Quid, like the various Concession rates, are not available on the app due to widespread fraud.

They require a 'human' to verify the right to the discount.
 

kkong

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They require a 'human' to verify the right to the discount.

There's no doubt they require interaction with a human to purchase.

But they don't require the presence of a child at the time of purchase or any other verification, other than (I assume) the purchaser to be at least 16 years of age.

I've bought Kids for a Quid tickets at a ticket office and I could have passed the tickets on to anyone.

Or is there an element of verification I'm missing here?
 

Haywain

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Interesting.
Given it claims to offer the cheapest fares, I wonder whether it supports "kids for a quid", which is quietly unavailable from the existing app - thus not offering the cheapest fares....
Will the 'Rail as you go' app cover more than one person? If not, kids for a quid wouldn't be relevant as it applies to accompanied children only.
 

hexagon789

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There's no doubt they require interaction with a human to purchase.

But they don't require the presence of a child at the time of purchase or any other verification, other than (I assume) the purchaser to be at least 16 years of age.

I've bought Kids for a Quid tickets at a ticket office and I could have passed the tickets on to anyone.

Or is there an element of verification I'm missing here?
Everytime someone asks ScotRail on Twitter, that's what they reply with.
 

kkong

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The risk would seem to be that the Kids for a Quid tickets (whether CCST or PRT) operate the automatic barriers like any other ticket.

Therefore a lack of inspection on board the train (to validate that the ticket holder is travelling with an adult holding a ticket for the same journey) would allow abuse.

Possible mitigations:
1. Ensure 100% on-board ticket inspections (never going to happen).
2. Issue the Kids for a Quid tickets in a format that doesn't operate ticket barriers (no help for journeys to/from stations without barriers).
 

Bill57p9

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My point is that ScotRail are claiming this offers the best value fare when it wouldn't for a child travelling with an adult.

Personally I find it "disappointing" that ScotRail encourage us to use their app which will happily sell you normal child fares in a group without even an alert to suggest that you would be cheaper to buy the child fare in person.

Accepted that children may not be eligible for Rail As You Go.


So they're bothered about Kids for a Quid opening ticket barriers when I could just buy a child fare in the app or at a TVM myself and, er, open the barriers...
In fact TVMs used to offer Kids for a Quid...
 

hux385

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Will the user have to input their destination before getting on the train or will the app automatically register when the passenger gets off?

Suppose I was originally travelling Edinburgh-Polmont but then decide to get off at Falkirk High, would the app automatically charge me the right fare for Falkirk, or would it charge me a penalty fare for going further on than I originally stated?
 

Benjwri

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Will the user have to input their destination before getting on the train or will the app automatically register when the passenger gets off?

Suppose I was originally travelling Edinburgh-Polmont but then decide to get off at Falkirk High, would the app automatically charge me the right fare for Falkirk, or would it charge me a penalty fare for going further on than I originally stated?
The idea of these apps is similar to tapping in and out. The user presses start, the app tracks where they go, and when they finish it charges them for the journey they made. IF it is implemented how every other scheme is they do not have to enter a destination.
 

hux385

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The idea of these apps is similar to tapping in and out. The user presses start, the app tracks where they go, and when they finish it charges them for the journey they made. IF it is implemented how every other scheme is they do not have to enter a destination.
That sounds great if that is indeed the plan.

I suppose a shortfall of the system is when passengers get on at an ungated station and then only hit 'start' when they see the ticket examiner coming through, but it's going to be impossible to create a system that is 100% watertight.
 

Benjwri

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That sounds great if that is indeed the plan.

I suppose a shortfall of the system is when passengers get on at an ungated station and then only hit 'start' when they see the ticket examiner coming through, but it's going to be impossible to create a system that is 100% watertight.
Presumably the system wouldn't be very happy about people starting a journey not at a station, I'm sure ticket examiners will be able to view when start was pressed at least!
 

Doctor Fegg

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I don't see how you can trust at all that the customer isn't spoofing the location
On any recent iOS (i.e. no jailbreak available) I would have thought you can pretty much can. Android is trickier, though I suspect there are some heuristics you could run for “does this look like a real GPS signal?” - changes regularly, not perfectly aligned to a geometry, largely stops moving when the service is known to be at stations, etc. That would require background location permission, of course.
 
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kkong

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My point is that ScotRail are claiming this offers the best value fare when it wouldn't for a child travelling with an adult.

ScotRail aren't claiming anything publicly yet.

The news story appears to be a leak of an early trial involving staff, before planning a later trial with a small sample of the public.

Presumably the purpose of these trials is to iron out the kinks before (deciding whether to) go live.
 

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