Scotrail RMT strike action and possible temporary service cuts to a third of services

[David M]

I wouldn't be increasing my staffing costs by 9%. Take it or leave it.

I can't imagine many train drivers resigning from Scotrail and finding work that pays similar outwith the railway. It would be foolish for them to do so.

 

[wobman]

I can't imagine many train drivers resigning from Scotrail and finding work that pays similar outwith the railway. It would be foolish for them to do so.

Why would it be foolish to move to a job in the same industry that offers better pay ? I can see scotrail traincrew moving for better paid traincrew jobs if possible, it's also about feeling valued by the company.

If scotrail traincrew move to other Tocs that just increases costs for scotrail, it's not a great position for any business. Years of staff training costs increasing / lower productivity/ low morale / decreased services/ service cancellations etc

 

[Siggy1980s]

Perhaps they should at least bear those issues in mind given the effect of a deterioration in both on their member's future job and earning prospects ?

I don't pay my RMT subs for it to concern itself with public opinion, or even the T&Cs of other industries. The nurses always get compared to railway workers whenever we have a dispute, why I don't know. The two are not comparable. I expect the RMT to do the best it can for ITS members. The NHS is not the railway industry's fight.

 

[43096]

I don't pay my RMT subs for it to concern itself with public opinion, or even the T&Cs of other industries.

Don’t expect the public - and passengers in particular- to give a stuff about the staff or unions. It cuts both ways.

 

[ar10642]

I can never get my head around this kind of attitude. I don't work for Scotrail but another TOC where RPI has increased 19% since the last pay increase and by the time the next deal is finally sorted RPI will be up well into the 23% - 28% range. Is it really so outrageous to be asking for a pay rise that will still come nowhere close to even standing still with my real expenses? Even at 7.8% it would still be a huge wage reduction in relative terms.

By your argument, we should all just move TOC's, and spend the best part of the next year being unproductive whilst we all have to learn a whole new set of routes and traction. How would this be anything but detrimental to all involved?

Nobody's going to get 9% anywhere, in any line of work. It's a ridiculous amount to ask for.

 

[mrd269697]

Reading this , some of it seems quite bizarre.

The cost of living is absolutely going through the roof. We keep hearing figures on the television that realtime wages have gone up over 8 percent on average since the start of the pandemic, much of that recently.

It's a fact that many rail workers have not received a rise since 2019. Many who had a rise in early 2020 at the start of the pandemic had one because it was the remainder of a multi year agreement.

Only today the BBC have been reporting on their news channel that wages in hospitality are up on average some 8 percent this year.

Offering pay freezes or rises of one or two percent just isn't going to pay people's bills when all is said and done. And they have no choice but to meet their costs of living, the people sending them the bills are not understanding to their pay freeze or only a 2 percent rise in 3 years. The workers did nothing to cause this cost of living crisis and are somehow ostracised by some for even suggesting they might be offered a rise in line with the rises in the cost of living, just so they don't fall behind. Business want to profiteer (such as the privatised rail operators), these workers just want to keep up (a bit). It's not to profiteer on like shareholders want, it's simply to keep wages in line with rising costs and inflation. We are all, or most of us, working to hopefully have some happiness in our lives and give our family some happiness and some level of future. All the time the gap between the minimum wage and many rail workers wages narrows and our standards decline further through no fault of the worker.

Station staff for example, if some havn't had a rise since 2019, the minimum wage has gone up how many times since then, at least 3 surely? And their wage has stood still. Yet some are doing work which requires months of training and a certificate to be competent at. Even if they got a 6 or 7 percent rise now, they have still lost a good load of money because of no rises in line with inflation over previous years and the fact inflation is extremely high at this time and could be likely to top 10 percent shortly and I to next year.

Inflation soaring seems to be a government issue and to a great extent a Bank of England Issue. The government was reported in the media to have accused the Bank of England of not acting soon enough to curb super inflation in the UK only a few days ago.

The real effects fall on ordinary workers who work with the public providing services. How is this their fault in any way? Are we calling them greedy for even suggesting they should not lose even more of their household budgets?

There seems to be a view among some in society that Unions are terrible and should be binned off and banned altogether. Totally contrary to how things were decades ago during the 70s and such like.
We should have a country where workers get together and aspire to be in a union to help the UK to raise their living standards and keep working conditions reasonable and raise them even further as time goes on. This is progress which goes back in history as far as time does. We should be making progress as the decades pass, not racing to the bottom.

We could offer workers in any industry 2 percent rises for years until they are basically on the minimum wage. But how reasonable is this in a rich society such as the UK? Is this what we want? It's not what I want for my children. I want them to have good quality, stable jobs, where they are treated well, enjoy their work, have a say on how their workplace operates, feel valued, make a difference, and are rewarded at a level that meets a reasonable level of living so that they can at least (try and buy a house, little hope of that) or pay all their bills, have children of their own if they want to and save a little for the future and for their own kids.

I feel it's since 2010 and the fear caused by the first financial crisis of 2008 that people have become so much harder in their feelings towards others with regards people should take their job and be grateful as the business must be able to make a profit above all else including happiness and ability to actually meet your own living and housing costs. And let's not forget, housing costs especially down in England are extortionate, around 9 times the average wage now. And the average wage we are told is nearly 30 grand.

If you want really decent public services in a developed and rich union (the UK union) you simply have to be prepared to subsidise these things. If you don't, you get poor services and people don't like it. And we all live here and we don't simply just want to live an existence. They did that in the early 20th century and during the war and it just isn't something we should wish on others.

Look at the transport alternatives, the motorways. They don't make a profit. They have to be subsidised by tax and road tax, and subsidised heavily. We could strip this subsidy right back and recruit companies to take on their operation and charge for each of their use. Tolls everywhere. But we realise some things are worth paying for and just have to be subsidised for them to even be half decent.

And as for comparing any rail wage rises to the public sector pay cap, we should as a country be demanding those in the NHS are given proper rises in line with inflation. Nothing less is acceptable. Not pointing the finger and saying I couldn't have any cake so neither should anyone else. Keep pushing this anti worker pro profit line and it's simply a race to the bottom.

I have been a member of many workforces. Some unionised some not. I've worked in a factory on minimum wage, where the sister factory in another city was Unionised. We were always jealous because they had far better terms than us and we wanted the union, but our branch was opened later and deliberately hired 80 percent part time workers so that they couldn't afford the union, and we never got it.
Having seen how a union can fight for the standards of its members, and the protection is can give Vs no union existing at all, I would 100 percent hope my children can work in a Unionised industry where they are not taken advantage of and threatened with their job at every opportunity, frightened of getting poorly and having to go sick, and earning a poor wage

Fantastic response. Agree entirely

 

[ar10642]

I don't pay my RMT subs for it to concern itself with public opinion, or even the T&Cs of other industries. The nurses always get compared to railway workers whenever we have a dispute, why I don't know. The two are not comparable. I expect the RMT to do the best it can for ITS members. The NHS is not the railway industry's fight.

Like it or not your demands will get compared to other workers.

 

[choochoochoo]

I think nurses do a fantastic job. However, it's their union and the NHS structure that lets them and their colleagues down.

I have good friends who qualified as nurses through NHS paid training, never worked a shift at the NHS post-qualifying and now work privately as a limited company, earning 125K a year for treating patients (injections/setting up drips) on home visits. Possibly working 4 hours a day maximum, at days/times they like.

These are newly qualified nurses. They tell me there's tons of work like this for them. So with such a bargaining position, why are their unions not getting those in the NHS a better pay deal ? What are they paying their subs for ?

 

[seagull]

Nobody's going to get 9% anywhere, in any line of work. It's a ridiculous amount to ask for.

Perhaps you should understand how negotiations work. Ask high, offered low, meet in the middle somewhere.

 

[dk1]

Perhaps you should understand how negotiations work. Ask high, offered low, meet in the middle somewhere.

Always the way.

 

[Dryce]

I think nurses do a fantastic job. However, it's their union and the NHS structure that lets them and their colleagues down.

The management and structure (and you've offered up the union too!) are more easily blamed than health workers. But the good things in the sector don't just happen because of nurses and doctors - and the bad things don't just happen because of those usual scapegoats.

(Similarly in the railway world if something goes wrong with your day and the frontline staff are helpful and empathic - it's easy to think that those in the backrooms were the ones not doing their job and sorting things out even though they are pulling off some invisible miracles and compromises).

 

[nanstallon]

Just as Putin was allowed to get away with too much, and then over-played his hand, so it could be (although without the terrible bloodshed) with RMT. Ruthlessly holding the public to ransom may lead to a realisation that perhaps we don't need railways all that much. But there will be a lot of pain in the process.

Nevertheless, the country should stand up to the unions.

No, it most certainly is not ! I was a Union member throughout my entire 38 year railway career, and Unions have a vital role to play in protecting and assisting their members, and negotiating pay and conditions. But in an industry like the railway, even the threat of strike action, never mind actually going on strike, has an immediate effect on passenger and freight user confidence, and after the last two years driving customers away to competing forms of transport is the last thing the rail industry needs. So the Union is absolutely entitled to demand a pay increase, but this has to be realistic and achievable, which 9% certainly is not.



Now, in Scotland, from the same source as any rail staff pay rise, ie the taxpayer; Are NHS staff demanding, or being offered, 9% ?

Yes, I've already booked National Express coach tickets for my holiday.

 

[choochoochoo]

Just as Putin was allowed to get away with too much, and then over-played his hand, so it could be (although without the terrible bloodshed) with RMT. Ruthlessly holding the public to ransom may lead to a realisation that perhaps we don't need railways all that much. But there will be a lot of pain in the process.

Nevertheless, the country should stand up to the unions.


Yes, I've already booked National Express coach tickets for my holiday.

You'll find that the railways are very much needed.

I'd love to see all the revellers on my train yesterday try getting into and out of town in taxis on a friday night !!! Or all the fans who'll be pouring out of concerts and sports events this weekend.

Commuters, feel free to work from home. The railways were overcrowded pre-pandemic, so reducing the numbers would mean capacity and demand are closely matched. Although as stated before, WFH is not what the rich overlords want from its underlings, so can't see it being embraced by those in power.

By all means take the bus/coach, but when everyone is doing it at the same time, you'll see this is when the railway has its merits. It's called a Mass Transit System for a reason.

As for freight, I look forward to seeing more trucks on the road. (I'll increase the amount that big oil companies make as part of my pension pot). A stat in the Times said 1 train = 72 lorries. That's a lot of traffic (and a lot of fuel !!) - Higher cost goods everyone ?

 

[43066]

Don’t expect the public - and passengers in particular- to give a stuff about the staff or unions. It cuts both ways.

It’s fairly clear many already don’t, especially if the comments on here are anything to go by.

 

[Davester50]

Just as Putin was allowed to get away with too much, and then over-played his hand, so it could be (although without the terrible bloodshed) with RMT. Ruthlessly holding the public to ransom may lead to a realisation that perhaps we don't need railways all that much. But there will be a lot of pain in the process.

I've seen some hyperbole in my time, but likening a genocidal maniac with an industrial dispute takes some gall.

 

[Falcon1200]

I expect the RMT to do the best it can for ITS members

That is exactly what the RMT, and in fact any Trade Union should do; But risking destruction of it's members' industry, partly at least in pursuit of an extreme political aim, is not going to help any railway staff.

 

[uglymonkey]

That is exactly what the RMT, and in fact any Trade Union should do; But risking destruction of it's members' industry, partly at least in pursuit of an extreme political aim, is not going to help any railway staff.

I think that's what happened in the shipbuilding industry, unions refused to modernise working practices ( as it would lose members jobs) yards became unprofitable as a result, yards closed.No more members jobs, ships now made in Korea etc..

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does nobody remember how the 1970s super-inflation worked out?
A period of steep wage/price inflation followed by a (Labour) price and wage freeze/cap and an embarrassing application to the IMF for a loan.
We were the "sick man of Europe".
Wages were controlled so much that a bonus culture for "productivity improvements", not linked to salaries/pensions, was invented, which is now endemic.
It all started when Edward Heath agreed that state benefits would be inflation-linked (the underlying cause being the quadrupling of the oil price).
Many people's savings evaporated in the ensuing 5 years or so of 20%+ inflation.
It also brought on the "winter of discontent" and the arrival of Margaret Thatcher.
Any pay rise (without extra productivity) more than the GDP rise (which is essentially flat, because of Covid and Brexit) is only stoking the inflationary spiral.

 

[choochoochoo]

I think that's what happened in the shipbuilding industry, unions refused to modernise working practices ( as it would lose members jobs) yards became unprofitable as a result, yards closed.No more members jobs, ships now made in Korea etc..

How do you outsource the railway to another country ?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

So productivity will come in the form of functions being amalgamated and so some job losses are inevitable. I suggest the unions should concentrate on NO compulsory job losses.

 

[och aye]

Rather ironically Jenny Gilruth will be opening the newly reopened Reston station on Monday - the same day as the new temporary timetable comes into operation.

Railway stn | community

www.restonscotland.com

On Monday 23rd May 2022, train operators will begin to call at the new £20m Reston station for the first time.


The first passenger service since 1964 – the 05.29 TransPennine Express (TPE) from Edinburgh Waverly - will call at Reston at 06.16 and is sure to be greeted with enthusiasm by the local community and rail interest groups.


The first north bound service – the 06.22 LNER service from Newcastle (07.15 at Berwick) will call at Reston Platform 2 at 07.26.


Later that morning, the Transport Minister, Jenny Gilruth will be greeted by children from the Primary school (and a piper) as she arrives at Reston. Ms. Gilruth will then join the School party as the children board the 10.22 north bound service for their first train trip from their new station.

 

[choochoochoo]

Rather ironically Jenny Gilruth will be opening the newly reopened Reston station on Monday - the same day as the new temporary timetable comes into operation.

Railway stn | community

www.restonscotland.com

Awkward. Lol

 

[Dr Hoo]

Does nobody remember how the 1970s super-inflation worked out?

Ah, yes. Especially the spectacular fares increases in 1975. 12.5% in January, 16.5% in May and 15.0% in September. Reckoned as 50.7% overall.

RPI in the year went up by 24.1%.

Passenger miles fell to their lowest ever level in 1976 (apart from strike-racked 1982).

But at least the PSO subsidy requirement fell by 1.5% in the following year.

Staff numbers on the core railway (excluding Works and Subsidiaries) fell by 7,745 the following year.

Luckily I kept my job.

[Figures from Gourvish's definitive, official BR Business History.]

 

[och aye]

Awkward. Lol

I can't imagine the press are going to give her an easy ride! No doubt most questions will be about the new timetable than about the opening of the station.

 

[muz379]

Nobody's going to get 9% anywhere, in any line of work. It's a ridiculous amount to ask for.

Except that is exactly what people building/repairing pallets at a factory near me got , likewise bus drivers at a depot near me got 8.9% . It clearly is possoble contrary to what you are trying to say .Both sets of workers organised by a union that organises some railway workers as well .

It’s fairly clear many already don’t, especially if the comments on here are anything to go by.

And yet rail workers continue to negotiate for decent payrises . If they didn't and hadn't for years there wouldn't be such rhetoric about them being overpaid .

Pay rises actually has very little to do with unions. Railways were heavily unionised in the 1980s but had to face a monopoly buyer of labour and competition for public spending. It is ironic that the unions perceive they have more power with the ability to call out more workers on strike, when it is actually market forces that caused the arms race in train driver pay.

The bus drivers in Ilkely will have got a rise because the industry simply cannot recruit and retain without one. No bus drivers, no business. A lot of businesses are facing a quite painful adjustment and with it the realisation that we aren't all rich enough to have people bring shopping to the door and wait on us in pubs and restaurants.

Quite , I am aware there is more to it than just numbers of members etc . Although currently drivers at the very least are in quite a strong position as others in this thread have already suggested . Slowing down or even halting training could see the political embarassment associated with this story at scotrail drag on . Outside the industry and the circle of enthusiasts the public dont necessarilly have the nuanced understanding of others .

But the main purpose of my post about bus drivers and pallet repairers/builders getting those payrises was as evidence in response to someone saying nobody anywhere in any industry would be getting payrises of that magnitude which is patently untrue .

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this thread is to discuss Scotrail RMT strike action and possible temporary service cuts to a third of services

If anyone would like to discuss anything else, please create a new thread (if there isn't one already).

If you see a thread go off topic, please report the first off topic post (using the report link under the post) and let us know any relevant details and please don't continue the off topic discussion.

Many thanks

 

[AJW12]

With a week to go, still no sign of the temporary weekend timetable - but no less than 343 cancellations today. Regardless of the ins and outs it's starting to become embarrassing how poor this is.

 

[duncanp]

Awkward. Lol

It's somewhat ironic that Reston station is only served by English TOCs, and therefore will be one of the few stations in Scotland that won't be affected by the reduced timetable coming into force tomorrow.

No doubt the Scottish government will be keeping very quiet about that.

 

[GordonT]

It's somewhat ironic that Reston station is only served by English TOCs, and therefore will be one of the few stations in Scotland that won't be affected by the reduced timetable coming into force tomorrow.

No doubt the Scottish government will be keeping very quiet about that.

If Reston's fortunes are dependent on the reliability of TransPennine Express then I'm not sure I share your optimism.

 

[David M]

Why would it be foolish to move to a job in the same industry that offers better pay ? I can see scotrail traincrew moving for better paid traincrew jobs if possible, it's also about feeling valued by the company.

If scotrail traincrew move to other Tocs that just increases costs for scotrail, it's not a great position for any business. Years of staff training costs increasing / lower productivity/ low morale / decreased services/ service cancellations etc

My comment related wholly to moving to jobs outwith the industry.