• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Scotrail RMT strike action and possible temporary service cuts to a third of services

Status
Not open for further replies.

Deltic1961

Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
645
Thought there would have been a thread on this already but I can't find one.


Link to BBC article discussing the driver shortage, industrial action and a possible cut to services.

ScotRail could cause "industrial carnage" with plans to axe up to a third of services during an ongoing pay dispute, a union has warned.
Rail workers' union RMT said the newly nationalised operator was proposing "a 30% cut in trains" for several months.
Services have been hit by a shortage of drivers after the Aslef union rejected a 2.2% pay rise and balloted drivers over strike action.
ScotRail said it would announce its plans in the coming days.
About 300 services were cancelled on Sunday and dozens still disrupted on Monday as a new timetable was launched.

However, a reduced timetable is now expected to be put in place until the driver shortage is resolved.
Mick Hogg, RMT Scotland organiser, told BBC Scotland: "We're talking about a 30% cut in trains over the piece and to me it can only be described as an absolute shambles.
"We've rejected the ScotRail offer as unacceptable and a kick in the teeth to RMT members who went above and beyond keeping the train services running - particularly during the pandemic.
Mr Hogg said he had recommended that the RMT ballot members for action short of a strike - with any action co-ordinated with the drivers' union Aslef.
Alongside a ballot of UK workers over Network Rail cuts, which closes on 26 May, Mr Hogg said it was "safe to say that industrial carnage is days away".

Aslef described ScotRail's proposals as the biggest cuts to rail services "since the dark days of Beeching" in the 1960s....
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
3,656
Rail travel is one option amongst several for most people outside London. If trains are disrupted many people have alternatives. It's time that reality was faced.
 

Deltic1961

Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
645
Transport Scotland spend so much time promoting walking, wheeling (whatver that is) and cycling I'm surprised they have time for anything else.

They plainly want to get everyone out of cars but this isn't going to help one little bit. Left hand right hand and all that.
 

InOban

Established Member
Joined
12 Mar 2017
Messages
4,225
Surely the problem is that having nationalised scotrail they can't award them a larger increase than any other worker in the public sector.
 

Kite159

Veteran Member
Joined
27 Jan 2014
Messages
19,326
Location
West of Andover
Transport Scotland spend so much time promoting walking, wheeling (whatver that is) and cycling I'm surprised they have time for anything else.

They plainly want to get everyone out of cars but this isn't going to help one little bit. Left hand right hand and all that.
Especially as some of the cuts are on the lines north of Inverness which only get 4 trains a day.

Good way to push more passengers to the buses/cars
 

numtot12345

Member
Joined
23 Feb 2021
Messages
86
Location
Glasgow
Is the reduction in services most likely to affect just Sunday services and/or just off peak? (Not that there is much off peak to cut back on to begin with)
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,268
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
"We're going to withdraw rest day working, overtime etc and then blame the TOC for the effects of this", no?

That is low. Tantamount to blackmail, indeed.
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,149
"We're going to withdraw rest day working, overtime etc and then blame the TOC for the effects of this", no?

That is low. Tantamount to blackmail, indeed.
It’s ultimately the bosses & politicians fault, stewardship’s appeared muddled & poor soon after the likes of Steve Montgomery departed the scene.
 
Last edited:

james_the_xv

Member
Joined
29 Oct 2019
Messages
213
Location
West Midlands
So, Scotrail cant fulfil their full timetable due to a lack of drivers due to covid. Nobody's fault.

Scotrail make cuts to timetables in the short term to ensure a more reliable service. Understandable.

RMT kick off because the drivers who are not working those services due to lack of drivers can't work the services they couldn't work anyway.

RMT throwing toys out the pram isn't news anymore. They don't operate for the good of the public or the rail network and nothing they've done during or since covid can convince me otherwise. Unless ASLEF are also throwing their toys out the pram you can just chalk it up to an RMT tantrum at this point.
 

Unstoppable

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
224
This is the exact reason I use my car for most travel. You just can not rely on this shambolic service. I had to use the train at the weekend to get to an airport a long distance away. I was reluctant due to the railways inability to run a service.... and surprise, surprise, my train was cancelled. That was me fired on to a cramped mini bus during the night for 2 hours. The industry as a whole really needs to man up and realise they are no important than any other and the bottom line is they are there to provide a public service. Someone really needs to put a stop to this self important ludicrous behaviour
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,787
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
UK response post-covid for rail industry recovery:

Government: "We need to scale back big ticket engineering projects"

Management: "We need to cut back services"

Unions: "We need to go on strike"

Passengers: "Bye"

I wonder if we will soon see a Beeching v2.0?
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,529
Location
UK
"We're going to withdraw rest day working, overtime etc and then blame the TOC for the effects of this",

It's OVERTIME !

How is is anyone else's fault other than the TOC that there isn't enough staff to cover normal working.

How many times has this been said. The railway runs on overtime and the goodwill of its staff.

Even in the Twitter post. ScotRail freely admitted they do not have enough staff.

If there was adequate staffing. Then the effect of removing rest day working would be zero.
 

ComUtoR

Established Member
Joined
13 Dec 2013
Messages
9,529
Location
UK
There needs to be a clause in these new Passenger Service Contracts and whatever comes after Franchising is dead, Long live Franchising; to force the TOCs to do everything they can to remove overtime requirements and to ensure there is adequate staffing. Including adjusting those establishment calculators that are clearly not fit for purpose.
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,410
Location
West Wiltshire
So, Scotrail cant fulfil their full timetable due to a lack of drivers due to covid. Nobody's fault.

Maybe things are different in Scotland, but using covid as an excuse is no longer acceptable, some businesses have gone back to simply ill or not ill as a determinant of if staff are off sick or fit to work
 

baz962

Established Member
Joined
8 Jun 2017
Messages
3,331
If it was adequately staffed there would not even be a concept of rest day working, it doesn’t exist in most businesses
Are you sure. Previous to being a train driver I had worked in several industries. I'm a trained ex chef plenty of overtime. Then a courier again loads of overtime. Then a labourer on building sites and in warehousing again loads of overtime. Then I worked in security and loads of overtime. And finally I worked at an airport and you guessed it , bundles of overtime. Happens in plenty of industries.
 

Fishplate84

Member
Joined
15 Dec 2014
Messages
88
Surely the problem is that having nationalised scotrail they can't award them a larger increase than any other worker in the public sector.
Nail and head. Having made such a noise over so many years about those profiteering evil private sector operators while benefitting from a very significant uplift in wage rates over the last couple of decades of privatisation, the reality of achieving renationalisation for the Unions is going to hit hard. Much tighter treasury / Government financial control and now much of the industry is again a public sector worker, you'll get treated like every other public sector worker. In reality I have very little sympathy. I think unions can be a real force for good, but for too many years the rail unions have had the whip hand demanding this or that and ultimately, renationalisation. Well, you have it now. Careful what you wish for is all I say.

Post pandemic and patronage through the floor, of course some serious questions are going to be asked about the number of services. And to the cries from the Unions about their hard pressed members going above and beyond on the front line. Come on. i took a few trains during the pandemic and none had more than a handful of passengers. Not exactly the NHS levels of stress. Managing the boredom threshold was probably the peak of it.

We are in for a rough time but this time and as a taxpayer i'm inclined to side with Government and while the opportunity is there they need to make the hard choices and come out the other side with a much more efficient railway. People have choices and for the next 18 months my guess is not using the train really isn't a hard one to make.
 

kristiang85

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2018
Messages
2,658
UK response post-covid for rail industry recovery:

Government: "We need to scale back big ticket engineering projects"

Management: "We need to cut back services"

Unions: "We need to go on strike"

Passengers: "Bye"

I wonder if we will soon see a Beeching v2.0?

Hits the nail on the head really. We should be entering a new golden age of rail travel, given renewed emphasis on green transport and new technology available, yet so much self interest out there is just going to make the industry implode.
 

dk1

Veteran Member
Joined
2 Oct 2009
Messages
16,118
Location
East Anglia
Are you sure. Previous to being a train driver I had worked in several industries. I'm a trained ex chef plenty of overtime. Then a courier again loads of overtime. Then a labourer on building sites and in warehousing again loads of overtime. Then I worked in security and loads of overtime. And finally I worked at an airport and you guessed it , bundles of overtime. Happens in plenty of industries.
Exactly. Some choose not to believe this though.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,268
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
If it was adequately staffed there would not even be a concept of rest day working, it doesn’t exist in most businesses

Plenty of businesses use overtime of various kinds.

My point is more that the staff clearly like it for the extra money or they wouldn't do it. Would they be happy if it was removed? I bet they would be cruising for a large pay rise to offset it.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,571
Location
London
Plenty of businesses use overtime of various kinds.

My point is more that the staff clearly like it for the extra money or they wouldn't do it. Would they be happy if it was removed? I bet they would be cruising for a large pay rise to offset it.

It’s hardly the RMT’s fault Scotrail doesn’t employ enough staff to run the basic service. But as usual railway staff are cast as greedy when they work overtime, lazy/militant when they don’t.

RMT throwing toys out the pram isn't news anymore. They don't operate for the good of the public or the rail network and nothing they've done during or since covid can convince me otherwise.

If you think that’s what a trade union is supposed to do you fundamentally misunderstand what they are and what their purpose is…

Not exactly the NHS levels of stress. Managing the boredom threshold was probably the peak of it.

The usual insulting nonsense. Not everyone who works for the NHS does a frontline role. The NHS positively dwarfs the railway in terms of cost, waste and inefficiency, so maybe start criticising that before you moan about railway staff wanting a modest pay rise.

We are in for a rough time but this time and as a taxpayer i'm inclined to side with Government and while the opportunity is there they need to make the hard choices and come out the other side with a much more efficient railway.

As a taxpayer who continued working throughout the pandemic I think it was outrageous that able bodied people were paid £30k per year of taxpayers’ to sit at home. I wonder how many of those criticising railway staff have benefited from furlough…

£5bn isn’t it that the government can afford to simply being write off due to fraudulent claims for Covid support, yet there’s no money to give railway staff a pay rise? Don’t make me laugh…
 
Last edited:

Dr Day

Member
Joined
16 Oct 2018
Messages
547
Location
Bristol
Good way to push more passengers to the buses
Is this really such a bad thing - particularly where bus offers a quicker or more frequent journey? Enables the limited funding for expensive-to-operate rail to be channelled into the areas where rail has a stronger case compared with other modes.

None of us on this forum want to see this happening but unfortunately there is a limited amount of subsidy and it has to be prioritised somehow. Having additional staff to avoid rest day working will only add to the cost base. Very difficult financial balance.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,787
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
Hits the nail on the head really. We should be entering a new golden age of rail travel, given renewed emphasis on green transport and new technology available, yet so much self interest out there is just going to make the industry implode.
Indeed, the covid seems to have convinced the industry & it's decision makers that actually running services people need for work, leisure & even to help reduce their carbon footprint is secondary at the moment.


Is this really such a bad thing - particularly where bus offers a quicker or more frequent journey? Enables the limited funding for expensive-to-operate rail to be channelled into the areas where rail has a stronger case compared with other modes.

None of us on this forum want to see this happening but unfortunately there is a limited amount of subsidy and it has to be prioritised somehow. Having additional staff to avoid rest day working will only add to the cost base. Very difficult financial balance.
Please don't tell me you are actually being serious? If people get chased off the trains onto buses, they are equally likely to go back to the car.
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
3,713
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
It’s hardly the RMT’s fault Scotrail doesn’t employ enough staff to run the basic service.

How is is anyone else's fault other than the TOC that there isn't enough staff to cover normal working.

Maybe things are different in Scotland, but using covid as an excuse is no longer acceptable

Scotrail say the Driver shortage is caused by Covid severely affecting Driver training, and will be temporary.


If it was adequately staffed there would not even be a concept of rest day working, it doesn’t exist in most businesses

force the TOCs to do everything they can to remove overtime requirements and to ensure there is adequate staffing

The railway should be staffed, not just in Driver's but in all roles, sufficiently to enable the normal service to be provided without depending on overtime. However, unless the provision of spare staff is great enough to cover every possible eventuality there will still be a need for occasional overtime working - But it should not be the norm every day.
 

LoogaBarooga

Member
Joined
11 Jul 2019
Messages
233
Nail and head. Having made such a noise over so many years about those profiteering evil private sector operators while benefitting from a very significant uplift in wage rates over the last couple of decades of privatisation, the reality of achieving renationalisation for the Unions is going to hit hard. Much tighter treasury / Government financial control and now much of the industry is again a public sector worker, you'll get treated like every other public sector worker. In reality I have very little sympathy. I think unions can be a real force for good, but for too many years the rail unions have had the whip hand demanding this or that and ultimately, renationalisation. Well, you have it now. Careful what you wish for is all I say.

Post pandemic and patronage through the floor, of course some serious questions are going to be asked about the number of services. And to the cries from the Unions about their hard pressed members going above and beyond on the front line. Come on. i took a few trains during the pandemic and none had more than a handful of passengers. Not exactly the NHS levels of stress. Managing the boredom threshold was probably the peak of it.

We are in for a rough time but this time and as a taxpayer i'm inclined to side with Government and while the opportunity is there they need to make the hard choices and come out the other side with a much more efficient railway. People have choices and for the next 18 months my guess is not using the train really isn't a hard one to make.
Patronage absolutely isn't through the floor. The last covid rules only got lifted at the start of the month and we're already back to 75% of pre pandemic passenger numbers.

Trains, at the weekend in particular, are absolutely rammed.

Also why would you grudge anyone a wage rise? That attitude seems bizarre to me. I think everyone should be looking for one in the current climate and I'd support anyone, in any line of work, in their claim for one.
 

muz379

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2014
Messages
2,229
My point is more that the staff clearly like it for the extra money or they wouldn't do it. Would they be happy if it was removed? I bet they would be cruising for a large pay rise to offset it.
Some staff might like it , but apart from a very small majority who have not been financially prudent the majority can deal with it if it is removed and recognise that it can be used to impact the company without losing any pay .

Its generally a mix at most traincrew depots I have worked at or have experience of , there are those that wont do any rest days or voluntary overtime , those that do them sporadically say to pay for a holiday or home improvement and there are those that will do any rest day or overtime they can get their hands on. Usually it is pretty equally divided . But as I said apart from a small minority most can see the greater benefit in removing them .
 

Snow1964

Established Member
Joined
7 Oct 2019
Messages
6,410
Location
West Wiltshire
Are you sure. Previous to being a train driver I had worked in several industries. I'm a trained ex chef plenty of overtime. Then a courier again loads of overtime. Then a labourer on building sites and in warehousing again loads of overtime. Then I worked in security and loads of overtime. And finally I worked at an airport and you guessed it , bundles of overtime. Happens in plenty of industries.

Completely different when overtime is available to allow enhanced operation, catch up, seasonal surge, or cover staff off sick.

When Rest Day working is only way to operate basic service, then it is different
 

muz379

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2014
Messages
2,229
Completely different when overtime is available to allow enhanced operation, catch up, seasonal surge, or cover staff off sick.

When Rest Day working is only way to operate basic service, then it is different
To be fair in my brief experience working in retail in my younger days and from speaking to friends that manage restauraunts . Overtime is often necessary to keep the doors open in these businesses as well . Especially post covid with some businesses struggling to recruit and retain staff .

I think the difference is , staff turnover in the types of places I describe above has always and will always be high for obvious reasons . Wheras the railway especially in traincrew grades has typically low staff turnover so staff shortages should in theory be easy to avoid . But as everyone in the indsutry knows these are historical problems and nothing new to the post covid world .
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top