ScotRail Services to Newcastle

[XCTurbostar]

Hi all,
I am sure this has been discussed at some point previously but I thought I would try and get some clarity.

1E97 (ScotRail 156) originates from Glasgow Central and runs via Dumfries and Carlisle to Newcastle.
I noticed that this is definitely crewed by Northern but is this service operated by Northern or ScotRail? or does it change?

Thanks.

 

[hexagon789]

Hi all,
I am sure this has been discussed at some point previously but I thought I would try and get some clarity.

1E97 (ScotRail 156) originates from Glasgow Central and runs via Dumfries and Carlisle to Newcastle.
I noticed that this is definitely crewed by Northern but is this service operated by Northern or ScotRail? or does it change?

Thanks.

AFAIK Northern take over at Carlisle

 

[SeanG]

There are a number of threads on this one, but to summarise:

Northern service from Newcastle - Carlisle, crewed by Northern staff.
Scotrail service Carlisle - Glasgow, crewed by Scotrail staff.

In essence the Scotrail unit is borrowed by Northern east of Carlisle.

Interesting to note that the service is advertised as to Barhill at Newcastle, but to Glasgow Central from Metrocentre onwards. In the south/east direction, the service is advertised as to Newcastle throughout.

The service used to go to Stranraer rather than Glasgow, but this was changed when the ferries moved to Cairnryan.

 

[Gathursty]

There are a number of threads on this one, but to summarise:

Northern service from Newcastle - Carlisle, crewed by Northern staff.
Scotrail service Carlisle - Glasgow, crewed by Scotrail staff.

In essence the Scotrail unit is borrowed by Northern east of Carlisle.

Interesting to note that the service is advertised as to Barhill at Newcastle, but to Glasgow Central from Metrocentre onwards. In the south/east direction, the service is advertised as to Newcastle throughout.

The service used to go to Stranraer rather than Glasgow, but this was changed when the ferries moved to Cairnryan.

Don't you mean Barrhead and not Barrhill?

 

[Failed Unit]

There are a number of threads on this one, but to summarise:

Northern service from Newcastle - Carlisle, crewed by Northern staff.
Scotrail service Carlisle - Glasgow, crewed by Scotrail staff.

In essence the Scotrail unit is borrowed by Northern east of Carlisle.

Interesting to note that the service is advertised as to Barhill at Newcastle, but to Glasgow Central from Metrocentre onwards. In the south/east direction, the service is advertised as to Newcastle throughout.

The service used to go to Stranraer rather than Glasgow, but this was changed when the ferries moved to Cairnryan.

Probably to stop people mistaking it for the cross country direct services. Common on may routes, Cambridge slow from Kings Cross = Foxton. Peterborough - Doncaster via Lincoln shown as Gainsborough Lea Road etc.

 

[newtownmgr]

I believe Carlisle Northern crews also work some services to/from Dumfries, or at least used to.Northern sets also go to Dumfries in the morning as a 4 car & split. Returning with a Newcastle & Carlisle service respectively

 

[swt_passenger]

Hi all,
I am sure this has been discussed at some point previously but I thought I would try and get some clarity.

1E97 (ScotRail 156) originates from Glasgow Central and runs via Dumfries and Carlisle to Newcastle.
I noticed that this is definitely crewed by Northern but is this service operated by Northern or ScotRail? or does it change?

Thanks.

Realtime trains actually deals with this quite well nowadays:

Realtime Trains - 1E97 1611 Glasgow Central to Newcastle

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Note that at the top of the detailed view it says operated by Scotrail and Northern, and under the entry for Carlisle it adds “Northern operates service from here”.

If you look at individual stations it shows “SR” as far as Gretna, then “NT” from Carlisle.

IIRC open data feeds didn’t cope with this very well a few years ago, and whichever TOC was responsible at the start carried on being shown all the way through.

 

[DanNCL]

1E97 is crewed and operated by ScotRail between Glasgow and Carlisle, crewed and operated by Northern between Carlisle and Newcastle.

The morning Dumfries - Newcastle services that use Northern 156s are operated by ScotRail between Dumfries and Carlisle, but crewed by Northern throughout. Before their withdrawal it wasn't unheard of for 142s to venture to Dumfries on those services, despite not actually being route cleared.

There is now no corresponding west/northbound service to 1E97 at all. The ScotRail unit returns to Carlisle as 1N50 06:20 Newcastle - Carlisle, then continues as 1L50 08:08 Carlisle - Glasgow Central. Although two seperate services, in practice you can usually remain on the train at Carlisle.

A second ScotRail 156 ventures to Newcastle each day. This works 1N56 07:41 Dumfries - Newcastle (operated and crewed by ScotRail west of Carlisle, Northern east of Carlisle). The unit then stables in Newcastle station during the day, before working 2N27 17:23 Newcastle - Carlisle and 1L73 19:20 Carlisle - Glasgow Central.

IIRC open data feeds didn’t cope with this very well a few years ago, and whichever TOC was responsible at the start carried on being shown all the way through.

Realtimetrains implemented a different method of showing it correctly - the open data still doesn't show it well, and the automated station announcements still announce 1E97 as a ScotRail service at Carlisle and stations on the Tyne Valley.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

On a historical note, it was even more complex in the early days of privatisation.

The 06:43 (I think) from Carlisle to Dumfries was formed off the first arrival from Workington. That resulted in a Northern Sprit train crew working a First NorthWestern unit on a Scotrail service!

 

[snookertam]

There are a number of threads on this one, but to summarise:

Northern service from Newcastle - Carlisle, crewed by Northern staff.
Scotrail service Carlisle - Glasgow, crewed by Scotrail staff.

In essence the Scotrail unit is borrowed by Northern east of Carlisle.

Interesting to note that the service is advertised as to Barhill at Newcastle, but to Glasgow Central from Metrocentre onwards. In the south/east direction, the service is advertised as to Newcastle throughout.

The service used to go to Stranraer rather than Glasgow, but this was changed when the ferries moved to Cairnryan.

Neither NR Scotland or ScotRail have established the concept of advertising services short of their destination. They also advertise Edinburgh/Glasgow Queen Street stopping services to their destination throughout, despite being much slower than the main shuttle service serving much of the same route.

 

[swt_passenger]

1E97
[…]
Realtimetrains implemented a different method of showing it correctly - the open data still doesn't show it well, and the automated station announcements still announce 1E97 as a ScotRail service at Carlisle and stations on the Tyne Valley.

Ah, that’s interesting, so RTT are ahead of the game on this?

 

[DanNCL]

Ah, that’s interesting, so RTT are ahead of the game on this?

Indeed they are, though I’m not sure exactly what it is they did to get it to show correctly.
I believe the through services between Glasgow/Dumfries and Newcastle are the last remaining services in the UK to change operator en-route, which would explain the apparent lack of effort from the rail industry to sort it out on the data system.

 

[Watershed]

Indeed they are, though I’m not sure exactly what it is they did to get it to show correctly.
I believe the through services between Glasgow/Dumfries and Newcastle are the last remaining services in the UK to change operator en-route, which would explain the apparent lack of effort from the rail industry to sort it out on the data system.

Depends on exactly what is in the open data, but if it's anything like what is in the actual timetable data, it should make any change of schedule header en-route pretty clear.

 

[Anvil1984]

Interesting to note that the service is advertised as to Barhill at Newcastle, but to Glasgow Central from Metrocentre onwards. In the south/east direction, the service is advertised as to Newcastle throughout.

This hasn't happened in at least a year (possibly 2 now). The two services which use Scotrail units in the Glasgow direction are advertised as separate Newcastle to Carlisle and Carlisle to Glasgow services with different headcodes

Towards Newcastle there are two services from Dumfries and one from Glasgow which are advertised through trains

 

[InOban]

Neither NR Scotland or ScotRail have established the concept of advertising services short of their destination. They also advertise Edinburgh/Glasgow Queen Street stopping services to their destination throughout, despite being much slower than the main shuttle service serving much of the same route.

Unless things have changed, Glasgow Central to Euston via Birmingham services are displayed as Euston. I'm sure some London passengers with open tickets get on the wrong train.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Unless things have changed, Glasgow Central to Euston via Birmingham services are displayed as Euston. I'm sure some London passengers with open tickets get on the wrong train.

Well, they might get on a ‘slower’ train but I’m not sure it’s a ‘wrong’ train.

 

[SargeNpton]

IIRC open data feeds didn’t cope with this very well a few years ago, and whichever TOC was responsible at the start carried on being shown all the way through.

Principally because the 2-alpha TOC code is part of the Retail Service ID (RSID) used in the reservations system. The TOC-code has to remain with the train throughout its journey to retain the integrity of the RSID.

 

[swt_passenger]

Principally because the 2-alpha TOC code is part of the Retail Service ID (RSID) used in the reservations system. The TOC-code has to remain with the train throughout its journey to retain the integrity of the RSID.

Yes, that makes sense as well. I suppose the question is why it’s only eastbound services that run as a single ID, it seems from post #14 that westbounds are split into 2 train IDs across Carlisle. Presumably on those you get two separate reservations, and you’re advised by staff to stay with the train at Carlisle?

 

[Anvil1984]

Yes, that makes sense as well. I suppose the question is why it’s only eastbound services that run as a single ID, it seems from post #14 that westbounds are split into 2 train IDs across Carlisle. Presumably on those you get two separate reservations, and you’re advised by staff to stay with the train at Carlisle?

Not necessarily. Reservations aren't possible on either of these services unless there's a random "counted place" reservation in place for the Northern section of the journey. On the evening service it depends on the relieving crew as there's a 20 minute wait at Carlisle and is booked for the Northern crew to shut the unit down, in reality 90% of the time the Scotrail crew get to the train early and no issues

 

[Tom]

Change of operators isn't a particularly hard thing to handle - and as noted the change en-route (CR?) header gives the only bit of information required to do it properly. RTT only does it once the schedule is created for the day from memory (unless I've expanded it and can't remember) as I've never updated the database logic for future services to handle.

Principally because the 2-alpha TOC code is part of the Retail Service ID (RSID) used in the reservations system. The TOC-code has to remain with the train throughout its journey to retain the integrity of the RSID.

It shouldn't be hard to handle this while carrying through the RSID throughout. Just carry through the prime TOC code from the schedule and track a different operating TOC code (this is effectively how RTT handles it)

 

[Watershed]

It shouldn't be hard to handle this while carrying through the RSID throughout. Just carry through the prime TOC code from the schedule and track a different operating TOC code (this is effectively how RTT handles it)

The CER of operator causes most booking engines to refuse to sell tickets like these!

 

[GLC]

Neither NR Scotland or ScotRail have established the concept of advertising services short of their destination.

One small exception however, are Cathcart Circle trains, for which the advertised destination is Cathcart, despite the full route's destination being Glasgow Central