ScotRail style permanent TOC naming & branding for future franchises?

[dorsetdesiro]

I'm sure I've seen comments stating that future franchises must retain the existing TOC name and styling dictated by the DfT, as is the case with ScotRail by Scottish Gov and future Wales franchise by Welsh Gov and WM Railway by TfWM, is this true?

Does this mean for example if the next South Western franchise in 2024 is won by say Abellio then would this still be called "South Western Railway" with the same livery even if no longer run by FirstGroup?

Anyone please feel free to correct me on this! Thanks anyway

 

[cactustwirly]

No, the name and branding of SWR was chosen by First group

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure I've seen comments stating that future franchises must retain the existing TOC name and styling dictated by the DfT, as is the case with ScotRail by Scottish Gov and future Wales franchise by Welsh Gov and WM Railway by TfWM, is this true?

DfT have ‘encouraged’ branding and liveries that can be carried forward in recent franchise specs, but it has not been made compulsory. I think there have been a number of posters over the last few years who had read too much into this and thought of it as being a ‘rule’ rather than guidance. The wording in the SW ITT (page 81) was:

“Use branding to maximise the value of the Franchise whilst having regard to the overall costs and benefits of branding including, where practicable, enhancing the Franchise brand so that it could be used by the Successor Operator and its successors, as well as limiting the costs of de-branding at the expiry of the Franchise...”

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/south-western-franchise-2016-invitation-to-tender

 

[Wirewiper]

The decision that any future franchise retain the "Scotrail" name is one influenced by a Devolved Authority (namely the Scottish Assembly) and is not general policy for the UK - although as said the DfT has started to "encourage" it.

 

[hexagon789]

The decision that any future franchise retain the "Scotrail" name is one influenced by a Devolved Authority (namely the Scottish Assembly) and is not general policy for the UK - although as said the DfT has started to "encourage" it.

Which is a shame, one if things I like about privitisation is the plethora of colour schemes (both good and bad).

 

[JaJaWa]

Which is a shame, one if things I like about privitisation is the plethora of colour schemes (both good and bad).

Considering the ScotRail HSTs are being refurbished into a completely different livery, I think the natural rebranding frequency is about as frequent as the private companies changing over. Other long running operations eg Eurostar, Chiltern Railways, Heathrow Express etc. have changed livery without changing company too.

 

[matthewmacleod]

It's the obvious solution to a total mess of stupid conflicting branding which changes all the time.

 

[hexagon789]

Considering the ScotRail HSTs are being refurbished into a completely different livery, I think the natural rebranding frequency is about as frequent as the private companies changing over. Other long running operations eg Eurostar, Chiltern Railways, Heathrow Express etc. are the same.

The ScotRail Inter7City livery is a vast improvement, indeed I quite like it really.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

DfT have ‘encouraged’ branding and liveries that can be carried forward in recent franchise specs, but it has not been made compulsory. I think there have been a number of posters over the last few years who had read too much into this and thought of it as being a ‘rule’ rather than guidance. The wording in the SW ITT (page 81) was:

Thanks for the above, yes, that makes sense. So the DfT are so far only encouraging this which they may eventually ramp up this by possibly bringing together all English franchises under uniform branding style and colours with only the TOC name being different.

This would give an impression this would be all one railway a la British Rail on the outside however still privatised underneath so this could be "nationalisation" Tory style with the DfT having more say.

On the other hand this may not happen, as noted in the SW ITT above, if Abellio for example wins the next SW franchise then it could still be branded as "South Western Railway" however with new branding style and colours different to what FirstGroup are using now, like Northern passing from Abellio to Arriva with the name remaining the same.

 

[hexagon789]

with new branding style and colours different to what FirstGroup are using now.

Which are awful in my opinion

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Which are awful in my opinion

Agreed,

The SWR branding is totally awful isn't it? As a commuter railway so it would not be on the same level as the likes of GWR and TPE which have far better branding.

But WMR and LNR are also commuter services and have more interesting liveries which it is disappointing that SWR couldn't have the same so it remains to be seen if the future SW operator, if not FirstGroup, will choose a better design.

 

[hexagon789]

The SWR branding is totally awful isn't it? As a commuter railway so it would not be on the same level as the likes of GWR and TPE which have far better branding.

It's hideous to put it bluntly, utterly soulless.

 

[hexagon789]

But WMR and LNR are also commuter services and have more interesting liveries which it is disappointing that SWR couldn't have the same so it remains to be seen if the future SW operator, if not FirstGroup, will choose a better design.

Indeed, considering the very 'colourful' First liveries of the past.

 

[cactustwirly]

Am I in the minority over this?
I actually quite like the SWR livery, it's a vast improvement over the gareish Stagecoach colours.
It looks very smart, with a clean & modern colour palette (no childish primary colours).
I hate the red livery on the 455s & 456s, looks like it belongs in a children's nursery.

 

[pdeaves]

DfT ... may eventually ramp up this by possibly bringing together all English franchises under uniform branding style and colours

Whilst that outcome is possible, I think that if (stress: if) the 'reusable brand' policy becomes compulsory it would likely be regional brands rather than one national one. If nothing else, it would make it more practical to retain such competition as there is (as so beloved by politicians) with 'named TOC only' tickets. It's hard enough as it is getting the public to understand 'you can use a blue train but not a white one', for example, without making them ALL the same colour! Of course, if the business/management model changes and 'named TOC' fares have to go then the outcome could be very different.

 

[hexagon789]

Am I in the minority over this?
I actually quite like the SWR livery, it's a vast improvement over the gareish Stagecoach colours.
It looks very smart, with a clean & modern colour palette (no childish primary colours).

Not sure if your alone, but the new livery to me is drab, colourless (quite literally), boring, dark and black. It just has no life to it, I'm not saying one has to go to psychedelic extremes bit a bit of colour wouldn't go amiss.

 

[pdeaves]

Am I in the minority over this?
I actually quite like the SWR livery, it's a vast improvement over the gareish Stagecoach colours.
It looks very smart, with a clean & modern colour palette (no childish primary colours).
I hate the red livery on the 455s & 456s, looks like it belongs in a children's nursery.

No, you're not. I quite like the new SWR colours, too. I also quite like SWT. Funnily enough, I think the SWR name/logo on SWT colours looks great!

 

[hexagon789]

I think the SWR name/logo on SWT colours looks great!

Well I don't, sorry

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Agree about not having to go for a psychedelic look however if the overall design is simply effective with just one or few colours then this can look classy in a nice way (like GWR) but using dark and dull colours may not work well if the previous livery was the opposite also with our grey rainy weather (like SWR)

 

[dorsetdesiro]

The Greater Western franchise could possibly be split in half into two, I really hope the superb GWR brand would be kept for the other half and taken on by the new operator if this isn't awarded to FirstGroup.

If the DfT do decide on a unified "quasi-British Rail" identity for all English TOCs to share, then it would be great if the GWR branding is used as a template, as I am a huge fan, as it wonderfully recreates the classic image of the Brunel days and pre-Beeching era in a classy contemporary approach also taking inspiration like the Orient Express which some people can be wistful enough to remember the nationalised BR without its faults also potentially attractive for rail tourism.

The Caledonian Sleeper also has this similiar look which suits its purpose serving long distance to Scotland and passing through picturesque scenery.

I know this can't easily be translated to commuter trains but you get the idea, more interesting than the plain white of C2C, Thameslink also even the German DB that the non-intercity GWR fleet do look smart bathed in racing green even the Pacers.

Just think of Greater Anglia and Northern spelt out in brushed metal on racing green!

 

[hexagon789]

Just think of Greater Anglia and Northern spelt out in brushed metal on racing green!

I am, and I like the idea!

 

[pdeaves]

Well I don't, sorry

Well, that's okay. We are all different and like different stuff. It would be really boring if everyone liked and disliked the same things.

Therein lies the livery designers' problem: what's good/rubbish to one person is rubbish/good to another!

 

[hexagon789]

Well, that's okay. We are all different and like different stuff. It would be really boring if everyone liked and disliked the same things.

Therein lies the livery designers' problem: what's good/rubbish to one person is rubbish/good to another!

Exactly, it would be very boring indeed

For instance, I dislike the ScotRail Saltire livery, but I think the new Inter7City livery looks very good.

 

[TUC]

Which is a shame, one if things I like about privitisation is the plethora of colour schemes (both good and bad).

Agreed. Creative branding is a key part of marketing use of the railway.

 

[hexagon789]

Agreed. Creative branding is a key part of marketing use of the railway.

That's what I like, the ability to be creative with colour schemes, not that it always works though...

 

[WatcherZero]

DfT have ‘encouraged’ branding and liveries that can be carried forward in recent franchise specs, but it has not been made compulsory. I think there have been a number of posters over the last few years who had read too much into this and thought of it as being a ‘rule’ rather than guidance. The wording in the SW ITT (page 81) was:

Theres also a rule that brands become franchise assets and a successor must be allowed to use the same brand created by the operator with a minor financial compensation.

 

[hexagon789]

Theres also a rule that brands become franchise assets and a successor must be allowed to use the same brand created by the operator with a minor financial compensation.

Is the compensation to cover for potentially advertising a rival company or something?

 

[WatcherZero]

For the creation of the Intellectual Property.

 

[hexagon789]

For the creation of the Intellectual Property.

Okay, thanks. I just wondered.

 

[Taunton]

Creative branding is a key part of marketing use of the railway.

I think that is only a perception of marketing people.

Buses in London work well. When first privatised there were all sorts of garish colours which led to loss of recognition by passengers. It was then enforced that although franchised operation continued, they must all be painted in a common livery. The branding, and indeed the publicity, is determined by the central organisation, not the individual franchisee. This gets away from nonsenses seen on the railway like maps showing only the train operators' own routes as if it was a network map, pretending other services do not exist.

Do you really think McDonalds would have done better if every franchised outlet was allowed to do their own thing for branding and offerings?