Scottish diesels in the 1980s Scotrail era.

[Cowley]

A bit of a wide ranging subject eh?

I was prompted to start this when I noticed something on this Heljan 0 gauge class 27 that’s just about to be released:


The loco has a Highland Rail motif on the side, but I don’t recall them ever having them? I know 26s did obviously but were any 27s allocated to Inverness before they were withdrawn?
Aside from that I’ve got a few questions about some of the branch line workings out to Kyle and Mallaig etc.

Post the introduction of Radio Electronic Token Block (RETB) signalling, which classes of loco were able to work where? Out to the West Highlands (Glasgow - Fort William/Oban/Mallaig) was it just a handful of class 20s and the Eastfield 37/4s?

Then with the Inverness to Thurso and Wick or Kyle line’s, was it the IS (Inverness) 37/4s and later a couple of IS depot pet 26s in the early 1990s? Or were there other 26s fitted with RETB back then?

It’s an area and era that I’ve always found fascinating I must say.

 

[Darandio]

Regarding the motif I love trying to dig stuff up like this. Not sure how wide ranging it was on the 27's but the very loco that model is based on here can be seen here in a poor state.

27032

27032 at Thornton Yard 1987

flic.kr

27049

27049 at Inverness

Class 27 No.27049 on shed at Inverness on 4th May 1985.New as D5388 to 14A Cricklewood on 2nd June 1962 and under TOPS became 27105 in April 1974 and finally 27049 on 17th August 1983.She was withdrawn on 27th April 1987 and cut up at V.Berry,Leicester by 13th March 1988 after being in the...

flic.kr

27008

27008 Inverness

27008 Inverness 04/04/85

flic.kr

It doesn't appear that there were that many from this brief search though.

 

[Cowley]

I love trying to dig stuff up like this. Not sure how wide ranging it was on the 27's but the very loco that model is based on here can be seen here in a poor state.

27032

27032 at Thornton Yard 1987

flic.kr

And it’s got a stag on it. Good work @Darandio!

I still wonder if it’s a one off though? I might have to go and consult a few old Platform 5 ned books in a bit and see what was allocated to where.
I do remember a few of the 27s had Haymarket Castle emblems on the side in the 1980s and I think some of the Eastfield ones had little Westies possibly?

 

[43096]

And it’s got a stag on it. Good work @Darandio!

I still wonder if it’s a one off though? I might have to go and consult a few old Platform 5 ned books in a bit and see what was allocated to where.
I do remember a few of the 27s had Haymarket Castle emblems on the side in the 1980s and I think some of the Eastfield ones had little Westies possibly?

In terms of the allocations, does this help at all?

BRDatabase, locomotive allocations, withdrawals and scrapping details in the UK

Locomotive history, railway statistics, steam, diesel and electric locomotives UK

www.brdatabase.info

 

[tbtc]

I do remember a few of the 27s had Haymarket Castle emblems on the side in the 1980s and I think some of the Eastfield ones had little Westies possibly?

That’s what I remember too, in the early 1980s a fair few had the smaller subtle white logo on the blue livery

The Highland “stag” is something I’d associate with Large Logo, when things became a bit bolder, and there were chunky yellow areas at the cab areas to stick it on (plus I think a small number of 47/4s in “Intercity” colours, could be wrong here, not even certain of what “Intercity” stuff an Inverness based locomotive would have hauled - the Sleeper?)

Sadly the 27s didn’t make it to the second half of the 1980s in squadron service, so missed the explosion of new liveries/ branding that started around that time

Lovely locomotives but I think stag doesn’t feel right on them, they belonged to a different era IMHO (even if 27032 had one, which I’ll admit I didn’t realise until tonight, as always I’m impressed with the hive mind knowledge on here!)

 

[Cowley]

In terms of the allocations, does this help at all?

BRDatabase, locomotive allocations, withdrawals and scrapping details in the UK

Locomotive history, railway statistics, steam, diesel and electric locomotives UK

www.brdatabase.info

Yes definitely. Thanks for that.
It seems to show that it was a solid Eastfield machine once it got to Scotland…

That’s what I remember too, in the early 1980s a fair few had the smaller subtle white logo on the blue livery

The Highland “stag” is something I’d associate with Large Logo, when things became a bit bolder, and there were chunky yellow areas at the cab areas to stick it on (plus I think a small number of 47/4s in “Intercity” colours, could be wrong here, not even certain of what “Intercity” stuff an Inverness based locomotive would have hauled - the Sleeper?)

Yes I think quite a few of the Intercity exec liveried Inverness based 47s had the stag emblem and Scotrail lettering on the side. There were quite a few intercity turns still in the 1980s (through trains from Euston etc) that they appeared on as well as internal workings.

Sadly the 27s didn’t make it to the second half of the 1980s in squadron service, so missed the explosion of new liveries/ branding that started around that time

Yes 1987 was the last year for them (along with the last class 25s). I guess they wouldn’t have headed out towards Fort William once RETB was introduced in 1984/85.

Lovely locomotives but I think stag doesn’t feel right on them, they belonged to a different era IMHO (even if 27032 had one, which I’ll admit I didn’t realise until tonight, as always I’m impressed with the hive mind knowledge on here!)

Definitely!

 

[Railsigns]

Yes 1987 was the last year for them (along with the last class 25s). I guess they wouldn’t have headed out towards Fort William once RETB was introduced in 1984/85.

RETB didn't reach the West Highland Line until 1987/88.

 

[Cowley]

RETB didn't reach the West Highland Line until 1987/88.

I didn’t realise that. The first time I went out that way was in May 1988 and I think it was all in place by then? I’ve a vague memory of the driver on a 37/4 picking up a token, or at least slowing down by the signalbox for some reason when leaving Fort William and heading towards Glasgow maybe? Hazy memories at this distance…

 

[Magdalia]

The loco has a Highland Rail motif on the side, but I don’t recall them ever having them? I know 26s did obviously but were any 27s allocated to Inverness before they were withdrawn?

Yes Inverness had a small fleet of class 27s in the early 1980s. They were mainly used "over the top" on the Inverness-Aberdeen service between 1982 and 1986.

 

[Cowley]

Yes Inverness had a small fleet of class 27s in the early 1980s. They were mainly used "over the top" on the Inverness-Aberdeen service between 1982 and 1986.

Interesting, I hadn’t realised that. I guess those were steam heat equipped locos?

 

[hexagon789]

Interesting, I hadn’t realised that. I guess those were steam heat equipped locos?

My 1986 Platform 5 lists the following at Inverness:

Standard 27s
27003 - boiler
27025 - no heat
27026 - no heat
27042 - no heat

Ex-push pull 27s
27047 - boiler
27048 - boiler
27049 - boiler
27050 - boiler
27064 - no heat
27065 - no heat

27047-50 were ex 27/1 with boilers
27064 & 65 were ex 27/2 with the Deutz ETH generators

 

[Magdalia]

I guess those were steam heat equipped locos?

Yes, Scotland was the last redoubt of steam heat.

ex 27/2 with the Deutz ETH generators

The Deutz ETH generators were redundant after the Glasgow-Edinburgh push-pull workings finished, hence the locos being renumbered back into the class 27/0 series.

 

[hexagon789]

The Deutz ETH generators were redundant after the Glasgow-Edinburgh push-pull workings finished, hence the locos being renumbered back into the class 27/0 series.

I know, I was just adding that they were fitted for ETH when push-pull machines.

 

[Cowley]

Ah the self-flambé equipped 27/1s. That’s a whole other subject!

Re the RETB fitted locos. Does anyone know how many were so fitted?

 

[hexagon789]

Re the RETB fitted locos. Does anyone know how many were so fitted?

There were eight, all Inverness-based, in 1986, don't have any other 1980s P5 Combined unfortunately.

 

[Railsigns]

The first time I went out that way was in May 1988 and I think it was all in place by then? I’ve a vague memory of the driver on a 37/4 picking up a token, or at least slowing down by the signalbox for some reason when leaving Fort William and heading towards Glasgow maybe?

RETB commissioning dates were:

06/12/87 - Mallaig Junction* to Mallaig
27/03/88 - Helensburgh Upper to Upper Tyndrum
29/05/88 - Upper Tyndrum to Fort William Junction*

* Mallaig Junction was renamed Fort William Junction on 27/03/88.

 

[Cowley]

RETB commissioning dates were:

06/12/87 - Mallaig Junction* to Mallaig
27/03/88 - Helensburgh Upper to Upper Tyndrum
29/05/88 - Upper Tyndrum to Fort William Junction*

* Mallaig Junction was renamed Fort William Junction on 27/03/88.

Useful information, thanks @Railsigns

 

[Magdalia]

Re the RETB fitted locos. Does anyone know how many were so fitted?

RETB came to the Far North and Kyle lines before ETH. 7 steam heat class 37s had RETB and were regulars on the Far North and Kyle lines, these were 37025/035/114/183/260/261/262.

37184 and 37017 also did spells at Inverness and had headlights for working the Far North and Kyle lines, but I'm not aware that either had RETB equipment.

According to one source that I have, 37021 received RETB equipment. I don't remember that, but Rail Gen Archive shows 37021 working to/from Wick in 1985/86.

 

[Iskra]

Probably not exactly what you were wanting, but from photos there was also an 08 at Fort William (what did they do about RETB for that?). Pre-RETB I’ve also seen pictures of class 25’s at Mallaig.

 

[Railsigns]

from photos there was also an 08 at Fort William (what did they do about RETB for that?).

Providing it was confined to the immediate Fort William area (station, depot and Alcan sidings), it wouldn't have needed RETB equipment.

 

[Taunton]

Yes, Scotland was the last redoubt of steam heat.


The Deutz ETH generators were redundant after the Glasgow-Edinburgh push-pull workings finished, hence the locos being renumbered back into the class 27/0 series.

I've written about experience with these before. Besides their calamitous moments they were also unreliable, fortunately the loco at the Edinburgh end of the push-pull remained boiler fitted (the Deutz loco was always at the Glasgow end), and the stock was dual heated. I seem to remember that when steam heat was in use westbound the fireman had to travel in the trailing loco; the need to avoid this, or run with firing up the boiler at the opposite end every hour was one of the reasons for the attempt at ETH. I think the boiler water capacity was also tight for 16 hours of intense running 7am to 11pm.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Probably not exactly what you were wanting, but from photos there was also an 08 at Fort William (what did they do about RETB for that?). Pre-RETB I’ve also seen pictures of class 25’s at Mallaig.

I suspect 08s were long gone from Fort William before RETB - permanent fixture in the 60s, but intermittent by late 70's by which time Shunting and local trip duties such as Alcan and Paper Mill were in the hands of main line locos. The Paper Mill had their own class 08 (08 077) from the late 70's but would occasionally hire one if theirs was under repair.
Cl25s would also have been in the pre-RETB era.

 

[Iskra]

I suspect 08s were long gone from Fort William before RETB - permanent fixture in the 60s, but intermittent by late 70's by which time Shunting and local trip duties such as Alcan and Paper Mill were in the hands of main line locos. The Paper Mill had their own class 08 (08 077) from the late 70's but would occasionally hire one if theirs was under repair.
Cl25s would also have been in the pre-RETB era.

Class 08 | 08938 1989-07 Fort William

Rail-Online

www.rail-online.co.uk

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Class 08 | 08938 1989-07 Fort William

Rail-Online

www.rail-online.co.uk

I stand corrected!
Local yard working presumably - or pre / post hire to Paper Mill (it would be hauled there).

 

[Iskra]

I stand corrected!
Local yard working presumably - or pre / post hire to Paper Mill (it would be hauled there).

If I was guessing, it possibly replaced the 20's? There are more pictures of a BR Blue one in and around that time period shunting around Fort William.

- - - -

While we are in the area, I was looking at the Fort William/Mallaig 1970 timetable, and it shows some through trains from the South to/from Mallaig with the teacup icon and also the bed/sleeper icon. What sort of refreshment facilities were provided please, was it a buffet coach or perhaps just a trolley? Also did the sleeper coaches genuinely work through to/from Mallaig or were they attached at Fort William (would be more logical in my opinion) and it's pretty much just a couple of through day carriages but the sleeper icon is shown as it offers sleeping facilities later in the journey?

 

[hexagon789]

If I was guessing, it possibly replaced the 20's? There are more pictures of a BR Blue one in and around that time period shunting around Fort William.

- - - -

While we are in the area, I was looking at the Fort William/Mallaig 1970 timetable, and it shows some through trains from the South to/from Mallaig with the teacup icon and also the bed/sleeper icon. What sort of refreshment facilities were provided please, was it a buffet coach or perhaps just a trolley? Also did the sleeper coaches genuinely work through to/from Mallaig or were they attached at Fort William (would be more logical in my opinion) and it's pretty much just a couple of through day carriages but the sleeper icon is shown as it offers sleeping facilities later in the journey?

From the 1970 CWN, most day trains had an RU, one had an RMB summer only.

The Sleeper had an RB, sleeping cars from Fort William only but three day coaches did come from Mallaig and go all the way.

 

[Iskra]

From the 1970 CWN, most day trains had an RU, one had an RMB summer only.

The Sleeper had an RB, sleeping cars from Fort William only but three day coaches did come from Mallaig and go all the way.

Thank you

 

[D6130]

The Sleeper had an RB, sleeping cars from Fort William only but three day coaches did come from Mallaig and go all the way.

....all the way to Glasgow - not to Kings Cross (as the London Terminus was then). IIRC, the London seating coach - then a BCK - also only worked to/from Fort William and was detached/attached there with the sleepers.

 

[Hadrian]

In October 1970 I all-line railroved for a fortnight including a trip from Kings Cross to Mallaig and back to Glasgow.
I had dinner leaving Kings Cross (the restaurant car was detached at York as I remember) and then breakfast before Fort William, Lunch leaving Mallaig and dinner between Fort William and Glasgow (all in another restaurant car which did a round trip from Glasgow Queen Street to Mallaig and back as I remember). The sleeping car(s) were detached at Fort William northbound and reattached southbound, giving time for servicing. The turnround at Mallaig was very brief.

 

[Iskra]

....all the way to Glasgow - not to Kings Cross (as the London Terminus was then). IIRC, the London seating coach - then a BCK - also only worked to/from Fort William and was detached/attached there with the sleepers.

Thank you for the additional information and clarification

In October 1970 I all-line railroved for a fortnight including a trip from Kings Cross to Mallaig and back to Glasgow.
I had dinner leaving Kings Cross (the restaurant car was detached at York as I remember) and then breakfast before Fort William, Lunch leaving Mallaig and dinner between Fort William and Glasgow (all in another restaurant car which did a round trip from Glasgow Queen Street to Mallaig and back as I remember). The sleeping car(s) were detached at Fort William northbound and reattached southbound, giving time for servicing. The turnround at Mallaig was very brief.

That sounds epic, can you remember what traction you got?