Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

Altnabreac

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There have been a few threads recently which have mentioned various different lines and dates for electrification in Scotland.

I thought I’d try and bring together all the different sources for electrification and do a timeline of what has happened, is happening and is likely to happen in future.

Airdrie – Bathgate – 2010
  • Drumgelloch – Newbridge Junction
  • Newbridge Junction - Haymarket East Junction
  • Haymarket Central Junction – Haymarket North Tunnels
  • Mound Central tunnels
  • Edinburgh Waverley western bays
Opened in December 2010, the new line involved double tracking and electrifying the existing line from Haymarket to Bathgate and building a new double track electrified railway between Bathgate and Drumgelloch.

Paisley Canal – 2012
  • Corkerhill Depot – Paisley Canal
Opened in December 2012 the low budget scheme was facilitated by only allowing for electric EMUs with freight able to run only when wires are de-energised. Also aided by an agreement with Scotrail to waive compensation payments for line closures during construction.

Cumbernauld – 2014
  • Springburn – Gartcosh junction
  • Gartcosh junction – Garnqueen junction
  • Garnqueen junction – Cumbernauld
  • Gartcosh junction – Gartsherrie junction
  • Garnqueen junction – Gartsherrie junction
  • Gartsherrie Junction – Gartsherrie Freightliner terminal
To be completed by May 2014 between Springburn and Cumbernauld allowing diversion of services to Queen St Low Level. Network Rail confirmed on Twitter that the Monklands triangle is included in this phase of works so Motherwell – Cumbernauld services can be electrified as well from Summer 2014 (if suitable stock available)
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...-electrification-works-get-underway-1dbd.aspx
Cumbernauld – Falkirk Grahamston to await EGIP diversionary routes phase in 2018

Whifflet – 2014
  • Rutherglen – Whifflet
Already electrified at both ends this short commuter route is planned for completion by May 2014 to give flexibility for extra services during the Commonwealth Games. Electrification of this route will also enable diversion of services to Glasgow Central low level, freeing up capacity at the high level station.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-22716540
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/news/Edinburgh-Glasgow-rail-programme-on-track

Edinburgh – Glasgow via Falkirk High – 2016
  • Glasgow Queen St – Cowlairs South junction
  • Cowlairs South junction – Cowlairs West junction
  • Cowlairs West junction – Cowlairs East junction
  • Cowlairs East junction – Greenhill Upper junction
  • Greenhill Upper junction – Polmont junction
  • Polmont junction – Winchburgh junction
  • Winchburgh junction – Newbridge junction
Electrification of flagship Edinburgh Glasgow route to be completed by December 2016, alongside work to extend platforms at intermediate stations to take 8 car trains. Glasgow Queen St will also be rebuilt to take 8 car trains but this work will not be completed until December 2018 so initially only 7 car electric trains will run.
http://www.networkrailmediacentre.c...-electrification-work-out-to-tender-1dd1.aspx
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-22722514

Edinburgh & Glasgow diversionary routes – 2018
  • Greenhill Upper junction – Greenhill Lower junction
  • Greenhill Lower junction – Carmuirs West junction
  • Carmuirs West junction – Carmuirs East junction
  • Carmuirs East junction – Grangemouth junction
  • Grangemouth junction – Polmont junction
  • Cumbernauld – Greenhill Lower junction
  • Springburn – Sighthill West junction
  • Sighthill West junction – Cowlairs West junction
  • Sighthill West junction – Cowlairs South junction
This is the first phase of the new “rolling programme of electrification which will cover around 100 single track kilometres per annum, commencing from the completion of EGIP”. See p33 of the Scotland Route Plan and p47 of the NR Strategic Business Plan. Although they have the same implementation date as the Stirling – Alloa lines (Dec 2018) in practice you might expect some of these routes to open slightly earlier allowing operational flexibility and conversion to electric traction of Falkirk Grahamston – Glasgow Queen St trains.

Grangemouth Branch – 2018
  • Grangemouth junction – Grangemouth
This is listed in the Network Rail business plan as being included with the Edinburgh and Glasgow diversionary routes to “potentially allow electric haulage of freight to Grangemouth, which could free up capacity on the West Coast Main Line”
It is not clear if this is a committed route yet but electrification of the Grangemouth rail line is identified under Priority 20 – Grangemouth Road and Rail Access Upgrades in the Strategic Transport Projects Review (see p112).
Falkirk Council’s plans to investigate the possibility of reopening Grangemouth station may also interact with this project:
http://www.falkirkherald.co.uk/news...for-new-grangemouth-railway-station-1-3047784

Stirling, Alloa, Dunblane lines – 2018
  • Carmuirs West junction – Larbert junction
  • Carmuirs East junction – Larbert junction
  • Larbert junction – Stirling
  • Stirling – Dunblane
  • Stirling – Alloa
This is the next phase of the new “rolling programme of electrification which will cover around 100 single track kilometres per annum, commencing from the completion of EGIP”. See p33 of the Scotland Route Plan and p47 of the NR Strategic Business Plan. Allows the re-timetabling of Edinburgh via Falkirk as the majority of trains on this route will now be electrified (only Glasgow – Aberdeen/Inverness and Highland Chieftain remain diesel operated).

Glasgow North Suburban - 2018?
  • Cowlairs West junction – Cowlairs North junction
  • Cowlairs East junction – Cowlairs North junction
  • Cowlairs North junction – Maryhill
  • Maryhill – Anniesland
  • Maryhill – Knightswood north junction
This is listed as Gap A26.4 in the Network Rail RUS Electrification and is listed in Phase 2 under Priority 6 – Further Electrification of the Strategic Rail Network in the Strategic Transport Projects Review (see p74). It may be included as one of the Edinburgh and Glasgow diversionary routes to ensure more electric trains operating out of Queen St and improve timetabling. If so a completion date of December 2018 is possible. Or it may be one of the next schemes to progress early in CP6.

Shotts Line – 2019
  • Holytown – Midcalder junction
Committed scheme with December 2019 completion date specified in the 2013 Transport Scotland Rail Electrification Programme. Electrification of this route will enable diversion of services to Glasgow Central low level, freeing up capacity at the high level station.

East Kilbride – 2019 or sooner?
  • Muirhouse junction – Busby junction
  • Busby junction – East Kilbride
Described in the Network Rail Industry Strategic Business Plan as “The electrification of East Kilbride branch is also planned to be undertaken in CP5 through a similar alliancing project which successfully delivered electrification of the Paisley Canal branch in CP4.” (see p48) No date is given so assume it follows the EGIP proposals and possibly slots in after the Shotts line?

Edinburgh South Suburban Line – CP5
  • Portobello junction – Niddrie West junction
  • Millerhill Yard – Niddrie West junction
  • Niddrie West junction – Craiglockhart junction
  • Craiglockhart junction – Slateford junction
  • Slateford junction – Gorgie junction
  • Gorgie junction – Haymarket West junction
  • Gorgie junction – Haymarket Central junction
Network Rail Scotland Route Plan describes the scheme “Edinburgh Suburban line electrification, as part of the W12 gauge clearance works over the ECML to Mossend via the Suburban line in CP4 the project team is also reviewing the cost to electrify the route. It is the Industry view that the cost to electrify should be included in the Strategic Business Plan (SBP) request for funding.” (See p33)

City Union Line – CP6? 2020?
  • Shields junction – Eglinton St junction
  • Eglinton St junction – High St junction
Plans for electrification of this freight only diversionary route are being developed by Network Rail in CP4 alongside the Shotts and East Kilbride schemes. It can therefore be assumed it will be one of the next schemes to progress once these are completed. Route Q - Scotland West 2011 Update describes the scheme as “Part of Electrification phase 2 Glasgow Suburban in-fill” with the scheme description saying “The City Union Line offers a shorter route for empty stock movements between the north and south Glasgow suburban rail network.”

Barrhead, Kilmarnock and Barassie – CP6? 2021?
  • Busby junction – Barrhead
  • Barrhead – Kilmarnock
  • Kilmarnock junction – Barassie junction
The final scheme being designed in CP4 this would complete the routes listed under Phase 2 under Priority 6 – Further Electrification of the Strategic Rail Network in the Strategic Transport Projects Review (see p74). Route Q - Scotland West 2011 Update describes the scheme as “Development of electrification of East Kilbride Branch and Line out to Barrhead & Kilmarnock and Barassie (part of Electrification phase 2 Glasgow South Suburban in-fill. The development of the Barrhead, Kilmarnock to Barassie section will be reviewed at a later time.)” This implies that the Barrhead section may be completed as an initial phase.

Fife Circle – 2024?
  • Haymarket – Inverkeithing
  • Inverkeithing – Kirkcaldy via Dunferminline
  • Inverkeithing – Kirkcaldy via Kinghorn
The Scottish ministers HLOS for CP5 requires that “the following strategic projects to be developed to an appropriate level to inform potential future funding decisions: Phase 3, 4 and 5 electrification in line with the conclusions of the STPR design schemes” We can assume therefore that the phasing of future electrification set out in the STPR is still valid and would form the basis of a continuing rolling electrification plan of circa 100km per year. If this is the case then the Fife Circle Line will be the first Phase 3 project to progress.

Phase 3 completion to Dundee/Perth – 2026?
  • Kirkcaldy – Ladybank
  • Ladybank – Dundee
  • Ladybank - Perth
The STPR Priority 6 – Further Electrification of the Strategic Rail Network describes Phase 3 of electrification as “Electrification of routes between Edinburgh, Perth and Dundee including the Fife Circle;” (see p74) so these routes would be the next in line for completion.

Dunblane - Aberdeen (Phase 4) – 2029?
  • Dunblane – Perth
  • Perth – Dundee
  • Dundee – Aberdeen
  • Aberdeen – Inverurie
The STPR Priority 6 – Further Electrification of the Strategic Rail Network describes Phase 4 as “Electrification from Dunblane to Aberdeen” (see p74). It is not clear whether this would include electrification from Aberdeen to Inverurie to allow continue operation of through trains to Dyce and Inverurie from the south.

Highland Main Line (Phase 5) – Post 2030
  • Perth – Inverness
The STPR Priority 6 – Further Electrification of the Strategic Rail Network describes Phase 5 as “Electrification from Perth to Inverness” (see p74).

Kilmarnock – Carlisle via Dumfries – Post 2030
  • Kilmarnock – Gretna Green
  • Ardrossan – Hunterston
  • Newton – Mauchline
This route is not explicitly described as included in the STPR electrification programme although the map on p75 does show it as part of the scheme. If it were to progress it may be as part of a scheme to improve freight provision and could include electrification to Hunterston and Newton – Mauchline as well.

Borders Rail Line – Post 2030
  • Newcraighall – Tweedbank
Not included in current plans but a logical extension of electrification after current plans are complete. The Borders Railway FAQs state. “The new railway will be engineered to allow for electrification to be carried out in years to come if desired.”

Aberdeen – Inverness – Post 2030
  • Inverness – Inverurie or Aberdeen
Not included in current plans but enhancements planned for CP5 and CP6 will enable hourly services to run throughout with 2tph services at each end of the line making this another logical candidate for extension of electrification.

Ayr – Girvan – Post 2030
  • Ayr – Girvan
No official status but independent reports have called for electrification to Girvan as part of plans to improve the frequency south of Ayr to hourly and recast Stranraer services.
http://www.carricktoday.co.uk/news/local-headlines/call-for-electric-line-for-girvan-1-1971067
http://www.transformscotland.org.uk/GetFile.aspx?ItemId=524

Other Lines

Beyond these schemes, other route reopenings such as Levenmouth or Alloa – Dunfermline could become future electrification candidates if passenger services were successfully reintroduced.

It seems unlikely that Far North Lines and Kyle of Lochalsh, West Highland Line and Girvan – Stranraer would ever be electrified though.

Sources:
  1. Network Rail, Industry strategic business plan CP5 2014-19, Scotland
    Published January 2013
  2. The Scottish Ministers' High Level Output Specification
    Published June 2012
  3. Transport Scotland Rail Electrification Programme - Control Period 5 (2014-19)
    Published Summer 2013
  4. Network Rail Scotland Route Plan
    Published 2012
  5. Scottish Government Strategic Transport Projects Review Final Report
    Published October 2009
  6. Edinburgh Waverley to Glasgow Queen St, proposed electrification - Grip stage 1 report
    Published May 2007
  7. Network Rail Network RUS: Electrification Strategy
    Published October 2009
  8. Network Rail Route Plans:
    Route P - Scotland East
    Route P - Scotland East 2011 Update
    Route Q - Scotland West
    Route Q - Scotland West 2011 Update
 
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clc

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Thanks, this will be useful for reference.

Re the City Union line, I think if they did electrify this it would make it difficult politically for Transport Scotland to maintain its opposition to Crossrail given that a major chunk of the required infrastructure work for 'Option A' would be in place: http://www.spt.co.uk/documents/sp250108_agenda5.pdf
 

Tobbes

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Great post - many thanks for digging this all this out.

I wonder if BordersRail is successful whether it will get boosted up the pecking order, especially if extended south of Gala. Presumably electric stock's better acceleration would be a bonus on a hilly route like the Waverley.
 

Altnabreac

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Great post - many thanks for digging this all this out.

I wonder if BordersRail is successful whether it will get boosted up the pecking order, especially if extended south of Gala. Presumably electric stock's better acceleration would be a bonus on a hilly route like the Waverley.
I think it could definitely move up the list. Especially if it ends up linked with Fife circle services you could imagine it slotting in nicely at the same time as Fife gets done.
 

steevp

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Really good to see all the information in one place - an excellent post and idea for a thread. Thanks Altnabreac for doing it
 

Altnabreac

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Thanks, this will be useful for reference.

Re the City Union line, I think if they did electrify this it would make it difficult politically for Transport Scotland to maintain its opposition to Crossrail given that a major chunk of the required infrastructure work for 'Option A' would be in place: http://www.spt.co.uk/documents/sp250108_agenda5.pdf
The thing I like best about Glasgow Crossrail is the regeneration opportunities at the new station sites, especially Gorbals but also West St and Glasgow Cross have good interchange potential and open up new areas of the city to rail access.

The problem with it for me (and I suspect also Transport Scotland) has been which services to divert over it. Someone has to lose out either in terms of extended journey times or losing access to Central/Queen St.

While Glasgow Cross is alright for accessing the retail areas/Merchant City it is much less convenient for most commuters and interchanging passengers.

So you probably need to run additional services over the link rather than existing trains.

I wonder if one option would be to divert the Glasgow North Suburban trains via Springburn. People who desperately want Queen St can go via Anniesland instead. Springburn - Bellgrove could benefit from a 4tph service. With stops at the new Crossrail stations this service could then run as an extra 2tph to Paisley Gilmour St and Greenock giving Cardonald and Hillington East/West a 4tph service.

This uses the additional capacity created by the Paisley improvements without using up precious Glasgow Central High Level paths.
 

Chris125

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Edinburgh South Sub electrification is not currently included in the funding for CP5, according to the recent ORR draft determination, though I believe NR are contesting this.

The list of projects proposed by Network Rail meet the requirements of the
HLOSs, although in Scotland there were two projects in the SBP, namely Carstairs
journey time improvements and Edinburgh South Suburban electrification, that are not
required by the Scottish HLOS. We have therefore not included them in our assumed
level of expenditure, but this does not prevent either scheme being taken forward in
CP5 should funding be identified.
Chris
 

clc

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The thing I like best about Glasgow Crossrail is the regeneration opportunities at the new station sites, especially Gorbals but also West St and Glasgow Cross have good interchange potential and open up new areas of the city to rail access.

The problem with it for me (and I suspect also Transport Scotland) has been which services to divert over it. Someone has to lose out either in terms of extended journey times or losing access to Central/Queen St.

While Glasgow Cross is alright for accessing the retail areas/Merchant City it is much less convenient for most commuters and interchanging passengers.

So you probably need to run additional services over the link rather than existing trains.

I wonder if one option would be to divert the Glasgow North Suburban trains via Springburn. People who desperately want Queen St can go via Anniesland instead. Springburn - Bellgrove could benefit from a 4tph service. With stops at the new Crossrail stations this service could then run as an extra 2tph to Paisley Gilmour St and Greenock giving Cardonald and Hillington East/West a 4tph service.

This uses the additional capacity created by the Paisley improvements without using up precious Glasgow Central High Level paths.
SPT's vision is for Crossrail to facilitate interurban rather than local services - such as Ayr/Greenock/Kilmarnock/Dumfries to Falkirk/Edinburgh/Stirling/Perth/Dundee. According to the document from 2008 which I linked to above, running 2tph from Ayr to Edinburgh via Airdrie would have a BCR of 1.44 over 60 years (present value of costs £221 million, benefits £318 million). That was based on running additional services only. However, SPT believe some existing services could be diverted away from Central/Queen St and the capacity freed up at those stations would strengthen the business case. Passengers on the diverted trains could still access Central/Queen St by changing at West St, Glasgow Cross or Bellgrove.
 

Altnabreac

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SPT's vision is for Crossrail to facilitate interurban rather than local services - such as Ayr/Greenock/Kilmarnock/Dumfries to Falkirk/Edinburgh/Stirling/Perth/Dundee. According to the document from 2008 which I linked to above, running 2tph from Ayr to Edinburgh via Airdrie would have a BCR of 1.44 over 60 years (present value of costs £221 million, benefits £318 million). That was based on running additional services only. However, SPT believe some existing services could be diverted away from Central/Queen St and the capacity freed up at those stations would strengthen the business case. Passengers on the diverted trains could still access Central/Queen St by changing at West St, Glasgow Cross or Bellgrove.
Indeed, I just don't think that's likely to happen. Transport Scotland dislike the scheme as it is proposed by SPT so much it was rejected from inclusion in the STPR even on a 20 year planning horizon.

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/files/documents/reports/j10194a/j10194a-a3E3.pdf

Summary: Rationale for Not Recommending

On balance, as a ‘stand alone’ intervention, Glasgow Crossrail performs reasonably well, however, it does not make best use of the rail network or integrate well with the menu of schemes required to satisfy the objectives of the STPR. The interventions set out in D25 (West of Scotland Strategic Rail Enhancements) offer better opportunities to enhance connectivity for the heaviest rail demand patterns in and around Glasgow, and could use elements of this intervention.

The committed improvements on the rail network between Edinburgh and Glasgow also provide a ‘step change’ in the connectivity of Glasgow Central to Edinburgh, resulting in enhanced connections for those travelling to and from the south and south west of Glasgow. This is likely to negate much of the potential benefit of Glasgow Crossrail.
As its rejected because the long distance benefits are negated by other schemes I suspect the way to get it back on the agenda is to refocus it as a local scheme.
 
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harz99

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So if Scotland gets independence post next years vote, there are an awful lot of projects at risk of cancellation due to lack of funding (remember GARL).

Probably the only completely safe project would be the flagship Glasgow-Edinburgh via Falkirk High route. Anything after that, who knows?
 

Altnabreac

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So if Scotland gets independence post next years vote, there are an awful lot of projects at risk of cancellation due to lack of funding (remember GARL).

Probably the only completely safe project would be the flagship Glasgow-Edinburgh via Falkirk High route. Anything after that, who knows?
I don't think an infrastructure thread is the right place to discuss issues like independence. Perhaps mods could move this to the general discussion area.

There is no particular reason I can see why independence would result in less infrastructure spending. It would continue to be one of a number of competing spending choices for an administration whatever the constitutional arrangement.
 

route:oxford

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I don't think an infrastructure thread is the right place to discuss issues like independence. Perhaps mods could move this to the general discussion area.

There is no particular reason I can see why independence would result in less infrastructure spending. It would continue to be one of a number of competing spending choices for an administration whatever the constitutional arrangement.
It's hugely central to it.

There are potentially huge border challenges to the railway ahead. Just look at the hassle when you cross between Canada and the USA by train.
 

Railsigns

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There are potentially huge border challenges to the railway ahead. Just look at the hassle when you cross between Canada and the USA by train.
On the other hand, crossing the UK/RoI border by train is completely hassle free. I think this is the more likely scenario in the unlikely event that Scotland votes for independence next year.
 

St Rollox

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Makes you wonder why we've waited so long for this to happen.
Most of this could have done in previous decades at a fraction of the cost.
Much of the lack of money story doesn't really add up.
If there was never any money it makes you wonder why we aren't all wearing clogs and using a horse and trap to get about.
Is it just me or does there seem to push on to drag us into the 21st Century.
In the space of a few years i've seen projects like Airdrie/Bathgate, M74, Hydro, Edinburgh Trams, Borders Rail, Cumbernauld Line electrification up and running.
I accept Dalmarnock Station is part of the Commonwealth games story.
Bottom line it's about political will more than money.
 

Altnabreac

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On the other hand, crossing the UK/RoI border by train is completely hassle free. I think this is the more likely scenario in the unlikely event that Scotland votes for independence next year.
Indeed this whole discussion is off topic for the thread but silly scaremongering about border controls doesn't help anyone. Given Ireland and the UK managed to maintain the Common Travel Area despite historical civil war, political tension and an ongoing campaign of terrorist violence, to suggest a similar arrangement could not be reached in Scotland is nonsensical.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Makes you wonder why we've waited so long for this to happen.
Most of this could have done in previous decades at a fraction of the cost.
Much of the lack of money story doesn't really add up.
If there was never any money it makes you wonder why we aren't all wearing clogs and using a horse and trap to get about.
Is it just me or does there seem to push on to drag us into the 21st Century.
In the space of a few years i've seen projects like Airdrie/Bathgate, M74, Hydro, Edinburgh Trams, Borders Rail, Cumbernauld Line electrification up and running.
I accept Dalmarnock Station is part of the Commonwealth games story.
Bottom line it's about political will more than money.
Agreed that this is where politics does come into it.

Devolution of control over infrastructure schemes does lead to increased investment. This has been the case in Scotland under both Lib/Lab and SNP administrations and also in Wales and London.

It suggests its not about nationalism or particular parties but about how actually investment in transport infrastructure can be a vote winner at regional/local level.
 
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St Rollox

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Looking back over my 40 year experience of Scottish/British politics it makes me wonder why certain politicians got so upset by the thought of Devolution.
I include a few leading Scottish politicians, Tory and Labour, over the years in this.
Did they tell Prime Ministers at Westminister that nobody wanted any major infrastructure projects.
What threat could building the Airdrie-Bathgate line be to a politician in London.
When i read on here of projects in London or Wales my first thought is, good on them, if it helps then brill, i'm all for it.
Why would anybody want to hold people back?
 

harz99

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I don't think an infrastructure thread is the right place to discuss issues like independence. Perhaps mods could move this to the general discussion area.

There is no particular reason I can see why independence would result in less infrastructure spending. It would continue to be one of a number of competing spending choices for an administration whatever the constitutional arrangement.
Not discussing independence, rather where the replacement for planning/funding via NR/RUK is coming from once NR ceases to have a role in transport provision in Scotland.
 
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St Rollox

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Not discussing independence, rather where the replacement for planning/funding via NR/RUK is coming from once NR ceases to have a role in transport provision in Scotland.
Silly questions i know.
How is NR funded in Scotland at the moment?
Isn't transport a devolved issue?
 

GRALISTAIR

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Makes you wonder why we've waited so long for this to happen.
Most of this could have done in previous decades at a fraction of the cost.
Much of the lack of money story doesn't really add up.
Bottom line it's about political will more than money.
I totally agree. We obviously try not to bring politics into this thread but sadly in the real world it matters. In the 1980s, I saw KX- Edinburgh on the ECML and sensible fill ins like Carstairs -Edinburgh plus Ayrshire electrified. That would have been a perfect time to do the obvious Edinburgh - Glasgow QS via Falkirk High and then other obvious in fills. The best time was 30 years ago. Very sad. I wish I could be Prime Minister/First Minister for 1 year. Boy would I get a lot done on the railways.
 

Altnabreac

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Silly questions i know.
How is NR funded in Scotland at the moment?
Isn't transport a devolved issue?
Yes NR in Scotland is funded and specified by Transport Scotland (an agency of the Scottish Government.

Network Rail produce a separate HLOS for Scotland each control period. Cross border services are specified by DfT in London with input from Scotland (except the sleeper which is the other way round).

Post independence a decision would have to be made whether to maintain the current structure, separate out Network Rail Scotland or do something else (vertical integration?).
 

tbtc

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An excellent resource - credit to Altnabreac!

Devolution of control over infrastructure schemes does lead to increased investment. This has been the case in Scotland under both Lib/Lab and SNP administrations and also in Wales and London.

It suggests its not about nationalism or particular parties but about how actually investment in transport infrastructure can be a vote winner at regional/local level.
I don't want to turn this into a thread about independence, but should point out that the north of England is seeing a big infrastructure investment ("Northern" Hub, Transpennine Electrification, Metrolink expansion etc) over the rest of the decade, in line with the investment in Wales (GWML electrification not decided in Cardiff Bay) and Scotland - so I think its more a case that the benefits of rail investment are recognised a lot more in 2013 than at privatisation, rather than it being entirely down to devolution.

Investment is a good thing - regardless of politics and politicians.
 

route:oxford

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On the other hand, crossing the UK/RoI border by train is completely hassle free. I think this is the more likely scenario in the unlikely event that Scotland votes for independence next year.
UK & RoI are both in Europe.

Who is to say that Scotland will be accepted into Europe, or the UK will choose to remain in Europe.

Either way, North of Glasgow electrification was planned back in the 50s
 

Altnabreac

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UK & RoI are both in Europe.

Who is to say that Scotland will be accepted into Europe, or the UK will choose to remain in Europe.

Either way, North of Glasgow electrification was planned back in the 50s
This is getting a long way off topic but the CTA operated before either country was in Europe. Or look at the Nordic Passport Union which operates fine with 3 EU Members, 2 EEA members and 1 non member (Faeroes). That's even assuming EU membership is not forthcoming which would seem very unlikely.

I'm not pro-independence personally but pretending the world would end if independence happened just makes you look silly.
 

St Rollox

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Yes NR in Scotland is funded and specified by Transport Scotland (an agency of the Scottish Government.

Network Rail produce a separate HLOS for Scotland each control period. Cross border services are specified by DfT in London with input from Scotland (except the sleeper which is the other way round).

Post independence a decision would have to be made whether to maintain the current structure, separate out Network Rail Scotland or do something else (vertical integration?).
Thanks for that Altnabreac.
Can see the complication.

On the matter of railway investment or the lack of over the years, the sad thing is electrification is only half of it.
Many of the stations could do with a serious upgrade.
Tiny bus shelters in busy stations are hardly top of the range signs of investment.
Only shows us how far the railways have fell behind.
The 1973 Duke St station waiting room with a roaring coal fire seems like a parallel universe.
Who says the past is another country.
 

clc

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31 Oct 2011
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1,133
Indeed, I just don't think that's likely to happen. Transport Scotland dislike the scheme as it is proposed by SPT so much it was rejected from inclusion in the STPR even on a 20 year planning horizon.

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/files/documents/reports/j10194a/j10194a-a3E3.pdf



As its rejected because the long distance benefits are negated by other schemes I suspect the way to get it back on the agenda is to refocus it as a local scheme.
I suppose the combination of enhanced Shotts and Carstairs services and G2E HSR if it happens would negate the benefits of direct Ayrshire services to Edinburgh. However, we'd still not have a solution for improving connectivity on journeys from south of the river to Cumbernauld, Falkirk, Stirling, Dundee etc which would still require a 10 minute walk between Central and Queen St, which is no fun in Winter. This deficiency would become more marked if the airport link ever got off the ground (pun intended).
 

harz99

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14 Jul 2009
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Yes NR in Scotland is funded and specified by Transport Scotland (an agency of the Scottish Government.

Network Rail produce a separate HLOS for Scotland each control period. Cross border services are specified by DfT in London with input from Scotland (except the sleeper which is the other way round).

Post independence a decision would have to be made whether to maintain the current structure, separate out Network Rail Scotland or do something else (vertical integration?).
You are of course correct regarding TS and NR in Scotland, however bearing in mind that the Scottish Government does not raise taxes of its own although it has powers to do so, ultimately the money to fund Transport Scotland currently comes from the UK as a whole.

As you say, post independence decisions would have to be made. One such could be, we can't afford these projects.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Altnabreac; notwithstanding my comments above, I would like to add my thanks to that of other posters for you pulling this information together in the way you have.:D
 
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Altnabreac

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You are of course correct regarding TS and NR in Scotland, however bearing in mind that the Scottish Government does not raise taxes of its own although it has powers to do so, ultimately the money to fund Transport Scotland currently comes from the UK as a whole.

As you say, post independence decisions would have to be made. One such could be, we can't afford these projects.
Indeed that could be one such potential choice. Given that independence is less likely to happen than electrification to Wick it's probably not worth spending too much time worrying about though!


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Altnabreac; notwithstanding my comments above, I would like to add my thanks to that of other posters for you pulling this information together in the way you have.:D
Thank you. :D
 

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