Scottish Electrification updates & discussion

[Quakkerillo]

Is the Inverness sleaper diverting via Fife also?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G97240/2015/06/15/advanced shows it is indeed routed via Fife.

 

[Class 170101]

Is the Inverness sleaper diverting via Fife also? And is the Chieften being driven by an Edinburgh or Aberdeen man who signs Fife or have Inverness Men route learned?

Newcastle crew as normal and they sign via both Fife or Falkirk between Edinburgh and Inverness and Edinburgh and Aberdeen. No drivers depots north of Edinburgh.

 

[AndrewR232]

I was on this service tonight and was expecting the train to be extremely busy after Queen Street (where I got off).

It actually wasn't too bad. More people than usual, certainly, and standing room only upon leaving GLQ, but the 3-car unit could cope.

 

[me123]

Hmm... sounding promising so far then...

 

[RJ]

I'm driving rail replacement buses between Linlithgow and Edinburgh Park today and tomorrow. I did Linlithgow to Haymarket yesterday, barely carried any passengers all day, despite several buses being missing from the circuit. I quite enjoyed it though, makes a change from driving Underground replacements on the crowded London streets.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Anything decent on the rail replacement in terms of vehicles?

 

[RJ]

Anything decent on the rail replacement in terms of vehicles?

A lot of Abellio London vehicles - mostly Darts and E200s which have been withdrawn from TfL service. I've also seen some National Express Dundee single deckers and some coaches. Not seen anything step entrance or remotely heritage.

 

[ADRboy]

Works at Winchburgh are well underway now. 40 days to go...

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailEGIP/status/610718959613149184

 

[Blindtraveler]

A lot of Abellio London vehicles - mostly Darts and E200s which have been withdrawn from TfL service. I've also seen some National Express Dundee single deckers and some coaches. Not seen anything step entrance or remotely heritage.

Shame, are well cant have it all I guess. Interesting that Abellio have sauced a good chunk of vehicles from within the group.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Works at Winchburgh are well underway now. 40 days to go...

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailEGIP/status/610718959613149184

Not that anybodys counting or anything lol. Its to be hoped that we dont get anything major in the way of rainfall that might flood the worksite, its a common enough problem. BTW does the scope of work include a bit of TLC to the Tunnel Drainage?

 

[me123]

I'm very much hoping that they keep on updating us, and more importantly those who use the line, as to the progress of the work. 6 weeks of buses and longer journeys is miserable, but keep people up to date and I'm sure they'll be appreciative and understanding. Looking at that picture above, I'm impressed at the work they're doing.

Hope for all the commuters that things continue to go well over the next few weeks (or at least, as well as can be expected).

 

[AndrewR232]

This was my final train of the day, and was not as busy as one might have expected.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

does the scope of work include a bit of TLC to the Tunnel Drainage?

Yes. It will need (and receive) a revised drainage system with increased capacity as a result of the lowering of the track height and the installation of the concrete slab track.

 

[QueensCurve]

Yes. It will need (and receive) a revised drainage system with increased capacity as a result of the lowering of the track height and the installation of the concrete slab track.

Wondering how this will work? Will there be a drainage channel between the 2 tracks?

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailEGIP/status/611809505270214656

 

[me123]

Good to see work progressing well, and really good to see regular updates - this is the kind of area where social media is genuinely useful.

One of the users on ****ter did bring up a good point - just how much lower will the track be at the end of 6 weeks?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Well, it's been a week and things seem to going well! Minimal moaning all around - even ****ter doesn't have much to say on the issue - and given the quality of complaints on there today ("my train's four minutes late - Scotrail suck!", etc...) I think that's got to be a good sign.

Well done to Scotrail for managing to keep things going during this time. Bodes well for next year's even more disruptive work at GLQ.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Wondering how this will work? Will there be a drainage channel between the 2 tracks?

https://twitter.com/NetworkRailEGIP/status/611809505270214656

Most likely, as the track beds are separate poured concrete structures, there's likely to be a drainage channel between the wall and the track bed on either side, and a central drainage channel between the two track beds.

I don't have a copy of the plans, so can't say for certain what the exact pumping arrangements will be, where sumps and pumping equipment or other external drains will be, but usual approach is to catch the water at the lowest point, letting gravity do the work for you, and then pump it out as necessary.

 

[daniel3982]

Why is Scotland so good at electrification when England is so poor?

 

[dviner]

Why is Scotland so good at electrification when England is so poor?

Could it be something to do with being able to spend more than a couple of hours a day doing it?

 

[me123]

Why is Scotland so good at electrification when England is so poor?

Political will? As we've seen today, electrifying between two of England's biggest cities isn't seen as being a priority.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Why is Scotland so good at electrification when England is so poor?

The Scottish electrification project is quite different to the one in England. The flagship of the entire project is the Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk High line, which is extremely important but much, much shorter and technically simpler than the main lines in England. The closest comparison I can think of would be the TransPennine North line, but enhancing the Falkirk High route doesn't involve four-tracking and linespeed increases in the way the TransPennine route requires. At this point in time, electrifying it really just consists of putting the wires up on the tracks that already exist, plus some platform extensions here and there. The same goes for most other routes across Scotland to be done in the near future.

A key factor in the delay to the TransPennine project is that they don't want to electrify the route as it exists today because they want to change it to make it better and more capable of dealing with the different traffic demands. Some of those changes would involve the electrification masts being located in different places, where there would be track realignments and extra tracks laid. Route upgrades could equally mean that the unused bores of the Standedge Tunnels would need to be reactivated, in which case the electrification works could take place without needing to close the route to passenger traffic by working on the unused bores and then switching over at a later date.

 

[snowball]

EGIP got its de-scoping in early, two or three years ago. And GARL was dropped.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Why is Scotland so good at electrification when England is so poor?

There is no simple answer but IMHO a combination of the answers above. My father always taught me though; "Where there is a will, there is a way". So I do agree that political will is a factor but not the only one.

 

[route:oxford]

Political will? As we've seen today, electrifying between two of England's biggest cities isn't seen as being a priority.

Electrifiying between two of the UKs capital cities continues as a priority though...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

EGIP got its de-scoping in early, two or three years ago. And GARL was dropped.

Don't forget abandoning the Dalmeny curve project and EARL...

 

[Class 170101]

The Scottish electrification project is quite different to the one in England. The flagship of the entire project is the Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk High line, which is extremely important but much, much shorter and technically simpler than the main lines in England.

Winchburgh Tunnel, Glasgow Queen Street re-modelling / Track lowering and Edinburgh North Tunnel wiring. Not simple I would suggest.

However one big advantage in Central Scotland. Edinburgh and Glasgow are still connected via either Carstairs / Shotts Line or via A2B routes.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Winchburgh Tunnel, Glasgow Queen Street re-modelling / Track lowering and Edinburgh North Tunnel wiring. Not simple I would suggest.

However one big advantage in Central Scotland. Edinburgh and Glasgow are still connected via either Carstairs / Shotts Line or via A2B routes.

No, but they're not like the TransPennine project. There's no risk of Network Rail needing to quad-track sections of the Falkirk High line in future, in such a way that they would need to rip up electrification work they had already done. In the original EGIP scope the only real track layout changes were the new turnback at Croy and the grade-separation work at Greenhill and at either end of the Dalmeny Chord, all of which would be geographically very limited in scope and definitely small enough for any changes to the OHLE to be reasonable. The work being considered on the TransPennine route involves slewing tracks and adding new ones over not-inconsiderable distances.

 

[edwin_m]

Although it doesn't feel like it, the Scots actually built up gradually. First was Airdrie-Bathgate, a relatively simple scheme with the big advantage that most of the work didn't involve live railway. This has then moved on picking up a few useful infills on the way, to EGIP which is more ambitious but still relatively modest - comparable in size to the Lancashire Triangle. If Transport Scotland has its way then the next step will be the much bigger project of getting to Aberdeen.

Compare with the English situation. In a period of two or three years we went from having done virtually no electrification for 10 years to committing to three schemes each of which is significantly bigger than EGIP. Two of these are now firmly on the back burner.

I'd say another benefit in Scotland is political concensus - changes of government cancelled EARL and GARL but didn't harm the progress of electrifying the main lines. And from what I see of Transport Scotland, they have a small but highly skilled team of experts who really understand how the railway works and how it could and should be developed.

 

[jopsuk]

EGIP got its de-scoping in early, two or three years ago.

In the end, what was descoped from EGIP? I know there was talk of cancelling the Stirling/Dunblane/Alloa section, but then they realised the depot was going to Stirling and restored that (if you go to Stirling, it makes no sense not to go to Alloa & Dunblane)

 

[Altnabreac]

In the end, what was descoped from EGIP? I know there was talk of cancelling the Stirling/Dunblane/Alloa section, but then they realised the depot was going to Stirling and restored that (if you go to Stirling, it makes no sense not to go to Alloa & Dunblane)

Basically the revised 2012 EGIP scheme omitted the elements required for 6tph running between Glasgow and Edinburgh and the separate interlinked proposal for additional Croy terminators.

These were broadly 3 main projects:

• Greenhill Junction Grade Separation
• Croy Turnback
• Dalmeny Chord

In addition the Strategic Review deferred the electrification of Stirling/Dunblane/Alloa from EGIP although this seems to be more of an accounting tool than anything else as the actual delivery date for electrification wasn't changed, but the Stirling electrification was no longer considered to be part of the EGIP project.

However it also required the following new elements to be added to the scheme:

• Queen Street Concourse / Station works
• Croy (Platforms and Buildings work)
• Falkirk High (Platforms and Buildings work)
• Polmont (Platforms and Buildings work)
• Linlithgow (Platforms and Buildings work)
• Waverley Station (Platforms and Buildings work)

Overall however this was a cost saving as the 6 new projects added were less expensive than the 3 projects removed.

Good sources explaining the decision here:
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...obs_Presentation_May_2012_for_publication.pdf
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/report/edinburgh-glasgow-improvement-programme-strategic-review

Of the 3 big schemes removed from EGIP nearly everyone seems agreed that the Dalmeny Chord will make a comeback. It is the only way to create new capacity for the western access for Waverley and will certainly be needed to deliver the capacity needed for High Speed Rail Scotland, if not before.

Greenhill Junction may well come back as well, it would improve journey times and reliability for a swathe of services, but until extra services are required it will probably remain a "nice to have" rather than a "must have".

Croy Turnback is probably completely dead unless High Speed Rail is not taken forward.

And as you say Dunblane - Alloa electrification is going ahead as planned. Some confusion here though in that it was never really cancelled, merely removed from EGIP so as to bring the headline costs down (and I suspect to ensure ministers could say EGIP was complete by an earlier date), it was always stated that it was merely a deferral (although sometimes TS suggest the same about the other 3 schemes, especially Dalmeny Chord).

I'd be optimistic that Dalmeny Chord will be included in plans for CP6, along with electrification from at least Edinburgh to Dundee including Fife Circle.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Of the 3 big schemes removed from EGIP nearly everyone seems agreed that the Dalmeny Chord will make a comeback. It is the only way to create new capacity for the western access for Waverley and will certainly be needed to deliver the capacity needed for High Speed Rail Scotland, if not before.

Greenhill Junction may well come back as well, it would improve journey times and reliability for a swathe of services, but until extra services are required it will probably remain a "nice to have" rather than a "must have".

Croy Turnback is probably completely dead unless High Speed Rail is not taken forward.

And as you say Dunblane - Alloa electrification is going ahead as planned. Some confusion here though in that it was never really cancelled, merely removed from EGIP so as to bring the headline costs down (and I suspect to ensure ministers could say EGIP was complete by an earlier date), it was always stated that it was merely a deferral (although sometimes TS suggest the same about the other 3 schemes, especially Dalmeny Chord).

I'd be optimistic that Dalmeny Chord will be included in plans for CP6, along with electrification from at least Edinburgh to Dundee including Fife Circle.

Wasn't the Garngad curve part of original EGIP (ie a direct Cumbernauld-Queen St LL route)?

 

[Altnabreac]

Wasn't the Garngad curve part of original EGIP (ie a direct Cumbernauld-Queen St LL route)?

Yes & No.

Garngad Chord was one of around 30 Infrastructure options identified that could contribute to Edinburgh - Glasgow improvements as part of the initial EGIP study in 2007.

See p100 of this report:
http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk...orts/Edinburgh-Glasgow-Final-Report-Oct07.pdf

Edinburgh - Glasgow (Rail) Improvements Programme was subsequently identified as Option 15 in the Strategic Transport Projects Review. However this specified the required outputs (more, faster, electric trains between Edinburgh and Glasgow) but not the exact inputs needed to achieve this.

It was assumed these inputs would be drawn from the options in the 2007 scheme but which ones were included was always slightly unclear.

Garngad chord was subsequently identified as not required to deliver the core Edinburgh - Glasgow part of the scheme, even when it consisted of 6tph Edinburgh - Glasgow. I believe this was in either 2010 or 2011.

By the time of the 2012 review to compare 6tph of 6 car trains or 4tph of 8 car trains Garngad had been gone from the scheme for a couple of years.

I suspect to make the 6tph work, without the Garngad Chord, Transport Scotland were assuming either a permanent reversal of all Cumbernauld services at Springburn and/or removal / diversion of the Maryhill Line services from Queen St High Level.

The furore over the Rail 2014 consultation (in 2012, confusingly!) which foolishly identified stations within a 1 mile walk of an alternative as potentially open to closure and the big political issue this became, especially in the Maryhill area, meant ministers in 2012 were extremely sensitive to any potential service reductions in north Glasgow.

Again it is suspected that the EGIP rescoping in 2012 conveniently solved this problem by restricting Edinburgh - Glasgow services to 4tph and removing the Croy terminators from the scheme.

Effectively this also ensured that Garngad Chord became permanently surplus to requirements as Cumbernauld trains will be able to use Queen St High Level once EGIP work is complete.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

The Scottish electrification project is quite different to the one in England. The flagship of the entire project is the Edinburgh-Glasgow via Falkirk High line, which is extremely important but much, much shorter and technically simpler than the main lines in England. The closest comparison I can think of would be the TransPennine North line, but enhancing the Falkirk High route doesn't involve four-tracking and linespeed increases in the way the TransPennine route requires. At this point in time, electrifying it really just consists of putting the wires up on the tracks that already exist, plus some platform extensions here and there. The same goes for most other routes across Scotland to be done in the near future.

A key factor in the delay to the TransPennine project is that they don't want to electrify the route as it exists today because they want to change it to make it better and more capable of dealing with the different traffic demands. Some of those changes would involve the electrification masts being located in different places, where there would be track realignments and extra tracks laid. Route upgrades could equally mean that the unused bores of the Standedge Tunnels would need to be reactivated, in which case the electrification works could take place without needing to close the route to passenger traffic by working on the unused bores and then switching over at a later date.

EGIP got its de-scoping in early, two or three years ago. And GARL was dropped.

A process we seem to be going through in England now. :cry:

On a side note Network Rail Scotland seems to have got the point where it is electrifying the right amount of track it can mange and is not biting off more than it chew, so how many track km on average is NWR Scotland planning to electrify per year compared to what is/was planned in England?