Scottish HLOS for CP6 (2019-24)

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by clc, 6 Apr 2017.

  1. clc

    clc Established Member

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    What projects do people think will be in the next Scottish HLOS not including work carried over from CP5? Let's assume there'll be around £1 billion for new projects. What are the strategic/political priorities likely to be?
     
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  3. GRALISTAIR

    GRALISTAIR Established Member

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    Electrify to Stirling then continue to Perth (put a nice big grid feeder in at Ladybank Junction. Then continue to Dundee. OK Aberdeen and Inverness will miss out on this CP but now you have electric service to 5 of Scotland's big 7 cities. Tay Bridge and Forth bridge will be put off until CP7 but - planning etc. will start in this CP -possibly progress to GRIP 3.
     
  4. GusB

    GusB Established Member

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    It'll be a wee while before we see an electrified Elgin.

    One lives in hope! :)
     
  5. nicholaswood

    nicholaswood Member

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    Electrification to East Kilbride surely has to be a priority!
     
  6. InOban

    InOban Established Member

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    I trust you all submitted your ideas to the ScoGov consultation which ran during the winter. I think it closed in February.
     
  7. JohnR

    JohnR Member

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    I'm assuming that they will include work on removing the single line section at Usan, as announced in January 2016 as part of the Aberdeen City Deal?
     
  8. Altnabreac

    Altnabreac Established Member

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    News Release from TS on 17th March that refers to this:

    https://www.transport.gov.scot/news-item/58cba92424ae440f0058d57b
     
  9. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    I believe NR has sent its CP6 initial ideas to Transport Scotland for consideration in the HLOS, and it has been published somewhere.
    The equivalent for England and Wales has also been sent to the DfT, but is being kept under wraps by the DfT.
    They used to be called Initial Industry Plans (joint NR/RDG), and were public as this stage in the last round in 2012.

    In Scotland I think it includes remodelling Carstairs, particularly to improve journey times towards Edinburgh.
    It apparently also includes grade separation at Greenhill, extra platforms at Glasgow Central and electrifying to Maryhill, East Kilbride, and Barassie via Kilmarnock.
    Of course the SG might want something different, or not have the money.
    Philip Haigh has a piece on this in the current Rail (823, p70).
     
    Last edited: 6 Apr 2017
  10. Strathclyder

    Strathclyder Established Member

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    The complete re-doubling of the Westerton-Milngavie branch (more specifically, the Westerton-Bearsden & Hillfoot-Milngaive sections) seems to be a no-brainer. Can't fathom why it was partially singled in the late 1980s in the first place, apart from the most obvious one (cutting back on track/infrastructure maintenance costs), but the negative effects of this have long since outweighed the positive.

    As it currently stands, it is a operational bottleneck with the smallest of delays having chronic knock-on effects. It's beginning to show in the passenger numbers, with usage of Bearsden, Hillfoot & Milngavie all taking a hit in the 2015/16 financial year, after a sustained period of growth from the 2011/2012 period in the case of Milngavie (the other two having last experienced a drop in 2013/14). To arrest any further decline in passenger numbers and to secure the line's long-term future, it would make complete sense to redouble this line, as it would undoubtedly help spur on further growth and practically eliminate the chronic late-running. Here's hoping that it is at least being considered...
     
    Last edited: 6 Apr 2017
  11. gsnedders

    gsnedders Established Member

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    Is there capacity at Hyndland/Partick for extra services to Milngavie? That said, avoiding late-running given the effects on the aforementioned congested section shared with so many routes may make it worth it anyway.
     
  12. Strathclyder

    Strathclyder Established Member

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    I think that the Finnieston to Hyndland section is close to being totally full capacity-wise, if it isn't already. Besides, I was thinking less of adding extra services to Milngavie and more of improving the time-keeping of the existing ones by upgrading the line to double-track from Westerton to Bearsden & Hillfoot to Milngavie, thus eliminating one of the Glasgow suburban network's most notorious operational bottlenecks.

    Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, would it be feasible to reinstate Milngavie's 3rd platform & bring the out-of-use ends of Platforms 1/2 back into use to further increase capacity as part and parcel to the redoubling scheme?
     
    Last edited: 6 Apr 2017
  13. InOban

    InOban Established Member

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    When the Milngavie branch was singled there was, I think just a halfhourly service. It was doubled when Airdrie to Bathgate opened. The RDG submission to the consultation points out that the linking of EDI into the Glasgow network means that any disruption anywhere spreads throughout the network, and this is exacerbated by the singled sections, of Milngavie is the worst.
     
  14. GRALISTAIR

    GRALISTAIR Established Member

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    What are the chances of sections of the Carlisle-Dumfries-Kilmarnock - GC getting reinstated to double line?
     
  15. InOban

    InOban Established Member

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    Sections of it were, to accommodate coal trains from Hunterston and from the opencast mines. However, with the collapse of that business, I can't see any business case for further enhancement.
     
  16. Altnabreac

    Altnabreac Established Member

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    It is now fully double track from Gretna to Kilmarnock. The only remaining single track sections are Kilmarnock - Stewarton and Lugton - Barrhead.

    The Scotland Route Study proposes signalling upgrades for this section to enable more trains to transit the single track but doesn't suggest re-doubling in the short term.

    The 2043 indicative service level is for 3tph from Glasgow Central - Kilmarnock, which is only a small increase from the current 2tph and could possibly be accommodated without more redoubling. South of Kilmarnock a regular hourly service is proposed but again that would be easier to deliver as there is already double track there.
     
  17. route101

    route101 Established Member

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    I agree , i think it should already been done by now !
     
  18. NotATrainspott

    NotATrainspott Established Member

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    According to RAILSCOT the Milngavie branch was partly singled in 1990. It went from double track all the way from Westerton to Milngavie, to single track with a long loop between and including Bearsden and Hillfoot stations.

    The 4tph service preceded the Airdrie-Bathgate scheme. It was in fact part of the line reopening just before that, to Larkhall. That branch needed another 2tph through Central LL and they chose to send them to Milngavie. However, at that point the 2tph North Suburban line service terminated at Maryhill and then carried on as ECS out to Westerton for a reversal. Providing the capacity for another 2tph through Westerton required the reopening of the line down to Anniesland and redirecting the Maryhill trains that way.

    I don't recall seeing any plans to redouble Westerton Junction. The only junction redoubling that is planned is for Bellgrove. I don't see redoubling going ahead unless it were the most cost-effective way of improving capacity in this section of the rail network. However, how exactly would it do this? How much delay is caused by trains having to wait at Westerton for Milngavie train to come off the branch, versus having to wait for one coming from the Singer direction? The single line section isn't really that long in the grand scheme of things.
     
  19. Carntyne

    Carntyne Member

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    It's a mixture of the single line(s) on the Milngavie branch and the short turnaround time which is causing the performance issues up there. Redoubling would be a massive bonus.
     
  20. InOban

    InOban Established Member

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    I was right that when it was singled there were only 2 tph, but wrong when it went to 4! The main bottleneck is, surely, Jordanhill junction (is that it's correct name?). 28 movements each hour through a flat junction is going some. I haven't used it for a few years, but in my experience there is of necessity a lot of recovery time in the TT, so that they can ensure that trains are presented to the junction on time. Helensburgh trains routine regularly make an unscheduled stop at Jordanhill. I have always thought that Hyndland (should be called Gartnavel) station should be moved just far enough East to make space for a grade separated junction, even though the gradient needed to drop trains from Yoker under trains to Anniesland would be rather steep.
     
  21. davetheguard

    davetheguard Member

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    A reinstated loop at Lentran to break up the 13 mile single line section between Inverness & Muir of Ord on the Far North/Kyle of Lochalsh lines .
     
  22. signallerscot

    signallerscot Member

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    Hyndland Junction. Grade separation was looked at as part of the works ahead of the Commonwealth Games but obviously never went ahead - it really could do with making its way back into the CP6 or CP7 plans. The section between Partick and Hyndland is supposedly the busiest section of double track railway outside the south east of England (trains on 2 minute headways in each direction during the peak, 4 minutes off peak) and if it were outside Scotland it would have been four-tracked years ago. Scotland's rail infrastructure has been pared down to the bare bones over the years and there is very little slack in the system given the number of trains operated, particularly on the north and south electrics. Too many single lead and flat junctions, not enough four tracked sections and passenger loops. Services crossing from one side of the country to the other with ridiculously tight turnaround times at either end don't help.
     
  23. Railsigns

    Railsigns Established Member

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    Hyndland East Junction, specifically.
     
  24. gsnedders

    gsnedders Established Member

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    To be fair, four-tracking the section from roughly the old Partickhill Station to Finnieston Junction would be difficult with the viaduct (and adjacent buildings and roads) and Partick Station to contend with (okay, the platforms of Partickhill Station too, but I imagine they could easily be demolished in such a plan!).
     
  25. gsnedders

    gsnedders Established Member

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    At least at Partick, trains seem to be perpetually a minute or two late, and they're typically late at Hyndland too.
     
  26. Altnabreac

    Altnabreac Established Member

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    Which is why the proposed intervention in the Scotland Route study is to 4 track through Hyndland and as far as Partickhill but leave the section through Partick station as 2 track.

     
  27. signallerscot

    signallerscot Member

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    The problem is that once a train is 60 seconds or more late on this section with the next one running only 120 seconds behind there is absolutely no chance for recovery and the whole thing just snowballs. They're trying to run a high intensity underground style service pattern on infrastructure that is just not up to handling it. The typical 5-7 minute turnarounds at Balloch, Milngavie and Larkhall just compound the whole thing, so if something is late terminating in one of these stations then you can guarantee that the back working will be a late start too. When you add in the fact that many of the services are continuing to or coming from Edinburgh it is no wonder that even minor disruption spreads from west to east and vice versa so easily and lasts for hours at a time. That's why there was so much furore in the media recently about stop skipping, because just about the only weapon available in the armoury is to run services express to try and make up time. It still happens every day of the week and I've seen north electric services run Express because they've been four minutes late over the busiest sections. There are only two ways we can get out of this crazy situation now and that's to either build more robust infrastructure or run less trains.
     
  28. clc

    clc Established Member

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    That would be 6tph more through Partick than at present wouldn't it? That would enable an additional 2tph from Edinburgh and you could also divert the Shotts and Lanark services onto the Argyle Line giving 10tph through both low level lines. I'm not sure where the additional 6tph would terminate after passing through Partick/Hyndland though.
     
    Last edited: 7 Apr 2017
  29. clc

    clc Established Member

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    I wonder if any info will be 'leaked' ahead of the council elections on 4 May. The SNP is aiming to take Glasgow from Labour so letting it be known that the Maryhill line was to be electrified for example might not be unhelpful.
     
  30. InOban

    InOban Established Member

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    All public bodies are in purdah until after the elections.
     
  31. me123

    me123 Established Member

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    To be honest, as someone who regularly commuted through Partick for about five years, I have to say that it was remarkably robust. It was actually very rare that I was delayed to any significant extent - presumably enough slack in the timetable elsewhere. Even with the A-B opening it still worked pretty well (I was very worried that a service passing through two of the most congested points in Scotland would be chaotic, but it hasn't really been). Obviously 4-tracking with grade separation at Hyndland East Jn would be preferable, but there simply is not the space to do it.

    Capacity is very tight, and there is literally no space for future services, but I think it actually does cope remarkably well when you consider just how intensive the service frequency is over that section of track.

    I really fail to understand the obsession with diverting the Shotts trains (and just about anything else people can come up with) into the Low Levels? The Shotts expresses have done a brilliant job at linking Central to Edinburgh with a regular and usable fast service, and the slow services are slow enough. Why slow them down even further sending them into the bowels of the low level station? Unless, of course, you can come up with a viable alternative as to what the capacity in Central is going to be used for.

    And you've hit the nail on the head - there is nowhere for them to go! I'm struggling to think of any potential journey opportunities West of Partick that haven't already been saturated. Milngavie has 4tph, Dumbarton has 6tph... perhaps going around the Maryhill line once it's electrified? (Although you'd have potential for conflicts in Anniesland compounding the whole situation further).

    Frankly, if you are going to divert things to the Low Level, I'd choose the Lanark services before the Shotts if you're just looking for 2tph. There was mild furore at the prospect of them going into the High Level for some reason, so diverting them to the Low Level (skipping Bridgeton and Dalmarnock) will appease those who want to go to the Low Level, keep a consistent service pattern for the Argyle Line (i.e. everything goes out of the Low Level) and keep the Shotts trains running fast into the High Level.
     
    Last edited: 9 Apr 2017

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