Season Ticket Changeover

[Baldock20]

I am hoping that someone might have some experience of season ticket changeovers as I have had no joy in getting one.

I have an annual season ticket from Baldock to London Terminals that expires on 15 May, my last journey prior to my London office being shut was 16 March. After
initially unsuccessfully contacting Thamesink about a refund, or pausing my ticket, I saw a post on this site that referred to season ticket changeovers. I asked Thameslink for a season ticket changeover, but was told these could only be done in person at the ticket office. I explained that Baldock Station has been closed since the beginning of April so getting a changeover done at a ticket office would not been possible unless I was to break the Government guidelines, because of this I felt my application should be backdated. The Quality Support Executive at Thameslink just restated that

"Season ticket changeovers are only for people who are genuinely altering their travel arrangements due to life events such as moving to another area or changing where they work. Station ticket offices are the only places that have the ability to process a changeover and these are not backdated as there would be no reason for this in the above situations – the customer would arrange the changeover after they had made their last journey on their original ticket, and then seek a changeover to whatever new ticket was required".

The response does not seem to have taken in to account that my place of work has changed, that I was not aware of the season ticket changeover option when I stopped commuting, and that I am unable to travel to a ticket office without breaking the current Government guidelines.

He has suggested that if I am unhappy I should contact the Rail Ombudsman.

Does anyone have any experience of season ticket changeovers? Should it have been this difficult? (I do understand that the rail industry is working in an unprecedented situation). Does anyone have any advice on how I should proceed? Or any experience of the Rail Ombudsman, are they likely to be of any use in this situation?

 

[Haywain]

Changeovers cannot be backdated, it simply isn’t possible or permitted. And they cannot be carried out other than at staffed sales points. From the TOCs point of view, once you have applied for a refund it’s pretty clear what the changeover request is all about.

 

[IainH]

Have changed my season over a few times over the last few years, with no difficulty, but on the day at a ticket office. I think the quality support executives comments are not wholly correct. The NRCOC says that "you may" change your season over. No conditions are attached to that. As it sounds like you have changed your place of work (not that that matters) the issue is lack of a ticket office, or a replacement postal/online facility. So maybe try again with Thameslink but if not go to the Ombudsman.

 

[Hadders]

You have an absolute right to a changeover but they have never been easy to obtain and the TOCs are certainly not going to make it any easier to obtain them at the moment.

GTR's ticket office at Stevenage is still open so that could be a possibility for you.

 

[CyrusWuff]

It's also worth noting that a changeover doesn't have to be done at the same Ticket Office (or even the same TOC) where you bought the original ticket - though some clerks will insist it does. It just makes it a bit easier where the ticket has been replaced so has a price of £0.00 printed on it.

Having said that, in the current climate TOCs won't be encouraging what would likely be regarded as a non-essential journey to a Ticket Office to undertake same. Indeed, it could even be two journeys if the TOC requires a Manager to sign off a changeover calculation prior to issue and there isn't one at the station involved.

 

[philjo]

Letchworth ticket office should be open.

 

[Baldock20]

Changeovers cannot be backdated, it simply isn’t possible or permitted. And they cannot be carried out other than at staffed sales points. From the TOCs point of view, once you have applied for a refund it’s pretty clear what the changeover request is all about.

Thanks for responding, I was upfront with the TOC that I was seeking a way to get some money back on the last 9 weeks of my season ticket when it can't be used. It was when the Department for Transport press release announced that “All season ticket holders can claim a refund for time unused on their tickets” that I assumed they had changed the refund policy related to season tickets and applied for a refund. The TOC confirmed that they hadn't

If I had not applied for a refund, or if the TOC had accepted that I was eligable for a changeover, I don't see how it could be actioned in the current climate as I can't get to a ticket office without breaking the government guidelines and a changeover has to be done in person.

 

[Baldock20]

Have changed my season over a few times over the last few years, with no difficulty, but on the day at a ticket office. I think the quality support executives comments are not wholly correct. The NRCOC says that "you may" change your season over. No conditions are attached to that. As it sounds like you have changed your place of work (not that that matters) the issue is lack of a ticket office, or a replacement postal/online facility. So maybe try again with Thameslink but if not go to the Ombudsman.

Thank you. I think I will try with the Ombudsman

 

[Baldock20]

You have an absolute right to a changeover but they have never been easy to obtain and the TOCs are certainly not going to make it any easier to obtain them at the moment.

GTR's ticket office at Stevenage is still open so that could be a possibility for you.

Thank you. That probably would be a way of finding out, but I wouldn't be comfortable breaking the Government guidelines (or what is suggested on national rail) to travel to Stevenage.

 

[Baldock20]

Letchworth ticket office should be open.

Thank you, that is helpful to know, but similar to my response above, while Letchworth Station is much closer to me than Stevenage I wouldn't be comfortable breaking the Government guidelines to travel to the ticket office.

 

[infobleep]

I intend to do a season ticket change over in due course.

I still would like the gold card benefit whilst observing the fact the government have asked us not to travel. What happens if I travel using my gold card and then do a refund at a later date? If the refund is backdated to March then I will have travelled using a gold card discount on a purchased ticket when in fact my gold card right should have already ended and said ticket shouldn't have been discounted.

Would it be worth raising this with your MP, given you are being advised you need to go to a staffed station?

 

[infobleep]

You have an absolute right to a changeover but they have never been easy to obtain and the TOCs are certainly not going to make it any easier to obtain them at the moment.

GTR's ticket office at Stevenage is still open so that could be a possibility for you.

Given the government have asked TOCs to do refunds back to 17 March, why would they be so anti season ticket changeovers?

 

[Hadders]

Given the government have asked TOCs to do refunds back to 17 March, why would they be so anti season ticket changeovers?

Just to clarify you have right to a changeover but you don't have a right to have it backdated to 17 March. Train companies might offer flexibility on this but I doubt

 

[island]

A changeover is offered to facilitate those who are genuinely changing from making one regular journey to making another because of moving house, changing job etc.; it is not offered to facilitate getting more money back than a cancellation. The fact that a refund might become payable because of a changeover is by the by.

I intend to do a season ticket change over in due course.

I still would like the gold card benefit whilst observing the fact the government have asked us not to travel. What happens if I travel using my gold card and then do a refund at a later date? If the refund is backdated to March then I will have travelled using a gold card discount on a purchased ticket when in fact my gold card right should have already ended and said ticket shouldn't have been discounted.

I am assuming that by “travel using my gold card” you mean travel on a separately-purchased ticket With a gold card discount.

Properly speaking, you ought to repay the discount when you refund the ticket on a backdated basis, but records of discount usage are not kept so it will ultimately be a matter for your conscience.

If your journey does take advantage of any of the validity of your season ticket then this would of course debar you from backdating your season ticket refund to March.

Separately, I refunded my Oyster-based season ticket online a few weeks ago; the card was stopped and I now have my money back (well, short about £75 due to dubious calculations by TfL, but that’s for another thread). I still have the Gold Record Card though...

 

[Hadders]

A changeover is offered to facilitate those who are genuinely changing from making one regular journey to making another because of moving house, changing job etc.; it is not offered to facilitate getting more money back than a cancellation. The fact that a refund might become payable because of a changeover is by the by.

Condition 41 of the NRCoT makes no mention of changeovers being offered to people genuinely changing from making one regular journey to another because of moving house, changing job etc. There is an absolute right to a changeover, regardless of reason. Train companies can make it difficult to obtain, do not need to backdate etc but they cannot deny a changeover.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National%20Rail%20Conditions%20of%20Travel.pdf

41. CHANGING ONE SEASON TICKET FOR ANOTHER

41.1. You may change your Season Ticket for another covering a different journey or class of travel provided that the original Season Ticket was valid for one month or more and has at least seven days’ validity remaining. In this case, you will only be required to pay the difference in price between your original Season Ticket and the new one, based on the number of days of validity remaining on your original Season Ticket.

41.2. If your new Season Ticket is for a cheaper journey or class of travel, you will be entitled to a refund on the original Season Ticket, based on the number of days of validity remaining on your original Season Ticket at the time that you ask for your Season Ticket to be changed.

41.3. The validity of your new Season Ticket must start on the day after the original Season Ticket is handed in and must expire on the same date as that of the original Season Ticket. You will not have to pay an administrative charge.

I am assuming that by “travel using my gold card” you mean travel on a separately-purchased ticket With a gold card discount.

Properly speaking, you ought to repay the discount when you refund the ticket on a backdated basis, but records of discount usage are not kept so it will ultimately be a matter for your conscience.

I think @infobleep intends obtaining a changeover to something like Hatton - Lapworth which would enable Gold Card benefits to be retained.

 

[island]

I think @infobleep intends obtaining a changeover to something like Hatton - Lapworth which would enable Gold Card benefits to be retained.

Perhaps so. It was not clear to me from the post which started off talking about a changeover and then went on to talk about a refund. Naturally, a changeover to another journey which can be issued as a Gold Card would not interfere with one’s Gold Card discounts in any way.

 

[infobleep]

Condition 41 of the NRCoT makes no mention of changeovers being offered to people genuinely changing from making one regular journey to another because of moving house, changing job etc. There is an absolute right to a changeover, regardless of reason. Train companies can make it difficult to obtain, do not need to backdate etc but they cannot deny a changeover.

https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National%20Rail%20Conditions%20of%20Travel.pdf

I think @infobleep intends obtaining a changeover to something like Hatton - Lapworth which would enable Gold Card benefits to be retained.

So then the question becomes, why don't the government want people to do season ticket change overs. Had I realised the seriousness of this. I'd have made a greater effort earlier to do this.

I followed the government advice though. Perhaps that was the wrong thing to do.

I have made multiple journeys to places this year and last using my gold card and no way could I easily figure out which ones. I paid cash for some of them too.

So it could be said I'm being penalised if I was to do things by the book as I can't give the back the discount money if I wish to do things lawfully but they won't backdate my change over request.

 

[island]

The government does not want people to do changeovers for the reason I gave at the start of post 14. Hadders is of course correct as to the NRCoT position.

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not think you should need to worry about repaying gold card discounts for journeys made until you stopped using your season ticket. The gold card is one of a package of benefits given to encourage travellers to pay for a year upfront.

 

[infobleep]

Back on 24 March I tweeted @SW_helo and asked the following:

@SW_Help hi. Given that all ticket offices are now closed, I assume until further notice, can season ticket changeovers be done by posting the tickets back to your department that deals with them & writing a covering letter?

Many thanks to you & your staff for the work they do.

Tim on Twitter

“@SW_Help hi. Given that all ticket offices are now closed, I assume until further notice, can season ticket changeovers be done by posting the tickets back to your department that deals with them & writing a covering letter? Many thanks to you & your staff for the work they do.”

twitter.com

The replies I got was as follows

Hi, that is correct yes, tickets can be returned to Customer Services with a cover letter ^RN

I then decided, without referencing SW_help again that going to the Post Office is probably not something I should do as I am in the moderate risk group and they were advicing us not to go to shops if we didn't have too.

Given I could post it back with a covering letter then surely I could post it back later. I then tried to use their online form, adding a note as this surely would be just as good as posting it back but that didn't work. I did ask them about that but didn't reference the changeover specifically as do not to confuse them.

I do appreciate people are saying it needs to be done at ticket offices but I'm just quoting what I was told at that time.

I did try that morning very early to go to the ticket office but it wasn't open. They did since reopen it but I decided to follow advice and not go to the ticket office.

In the past 5 weeks I've only been to the pharmacy once and I wouldn't have done that if I didn't have to. I have been out for walks,onxe or twice a week but those are a lower risk so medical professionals have told me.

 

[infobleep]

The government does not want people to do changeovers for the reason I gave at the start of post 14. Hadders is of course correct as to the NRCoT position.

For the avoidance of doubt, I do not think you should need to worry about repaying gold card discounts for journeys made until you stopped using your season ticket. The gold card is one of a package of benefits given to encourage travellers to pay for a year upfront.

I do appreciate what you are saying. Technically refunds for season tickets should only be the day you hand it in and not when you last travelled, unless you can proof you were ill so the government disn't need to say season ticket refunds would be back dated to 17 March, yet they did.

 

[island]

Yes, the point is that cancellations are for people who have stopped travelling and government has advised people to stop travelling, so facilitating passengers with extra leniency for cancellations is in line with the advice.

If you want a changeover this must mean you are still travelling (as changeovers are only intended for people who have changed their work journey, the points made earlier notwithstanding), so you should only be requesting a changeover if you are still entitled to be travelling due to being unable to work remotely, so you should be able to process your changeover on your way to or from work.

That is the logic being applied, I am not stating I agree with it.

 

[infobleep]

Yes, the point is that cancellations are for people who have stopped travelling and government has advised people to stop travelling, so facilitating passengers with extra leniency for cancellations is in line with the advice.

If you want a changeover this must mean you are still travelling (as changeovers are only intended for people who have changed their work journey, the points made earlier notwithstanding), so you should only be requesting a changeover if you are still entitled to be travelling due to being unable to work remotely, so you should be able to process your changeover on your way to or from work.

That is the logic being applied, I am not stating I agree with it.

I now think it will be in my interest to refund the ticket as the time since I could have done a changeover makes it not worthwhile doing it now, unless they back date it. I could ask in the ticket office. I am not to far from the station and it would be possible to see how busy it is inside before entering.

I've only ever done one season ticket changeover and that was from a cheap season ticket to one I needed to use for regular travel. So the reverse. It wasn't a change of job or location but I do appricate the regulations are lax on this matter.

I believe the difference is £76 between doing a change over on the 17th and refunding the season but that difference would go up every time I travel without the gold card as I don't get a third off.

Buying a network rail card isn't worthwhile in the circumstances as once we come out of lockdown to point I travel again, I will need the season ticket and will thus get a gold card. I know there are sections of Railway where only a Network Rail card is valid but I don't use those often.

Originally I did hesitate doing any of this as I wanted to support the railways. I only changed my mind once I'd read the government were telling people to apply for refunds on Monday 23 March. That was though a week after I'd last travelled.

I had one opportunity on that Monday to do a changeover but there was a queue behind me, with someone directly behind me becoming restless and agitated. I also had a zoom pilates class due in around 30 minutes so decided to go back later as I knew I'd be a while there and it would be quieter then. I did discuss this at the ticket desk briefly and ask what time they were open until.

However later the relief person hadn't arrived and ticket office closed early. The ticket clerk wouldn't have known this would occur. I then tried the following morning but SWR had decided to close all their ticket offices and/or the person didn't come in. Nor sure which applied at Guildford but online they said ticket offices were closed.

At that point neither GTR or GWR were closing their ticket offices. Alas I couldn't get to any of their ones as they were not nearby and travel to them wouldn't be considered essential.

I may hold off on delaying the refund and then apply. I could mention the gold card issue with purchasing other tickets and see if they ask for the difference to be paid. They may not do.

 

[Baldock20]

Yes, the point is that cancellations are for people who have stopped travelling and government has advised people to stop travelling, so facilitating passengers with extra leniency for cancellations is in line with the advice.

If you want a changeover this must mean you are still travelling (as changeovers are only intended for people who have changed their work journey, the points made earlier notwithstanding), so you should only be requesting a changeover if you are still entitled to be travelling due to being unable to work remotely, so you should be able to process your changeover on your way to or from work.

That is the logic being applied, I am not stating I agree with it.

That is helpful, I can see that is the logic the TOC are applying and why they have suggested I couldn't have a changeover. While my place of work has changed, I am no longer commuting and was looking for any way to get some money back on the last 9 weeks of my season ticket, but it doesn't appear if there is an option to do so. If I had been able to get to a train station, I suppose they may have allowed me to do changeover to a Devonport Dockyard to Devonport, or Exeter St Davids and Exeter Central ticket, as they may not have been able to apply that logic, but that isn't an option for me

 

[infobleep]

Are there any Web Sites where I can look up fare data from last October or even January 2019?

I did ask about a changeover at the station on the off chance there might be leniency but you posters have said on here, it could only be for today. .

The £76 difference I quoted was actually for something else so I don't know the difference between annual and monthly as I don't have last years prices to hand.

I could work it out using this year's data for a rough estimate.

 

[infobleep]

From my rough workings out. It looks like if I'd done a season ticket changeover on or around 8 April I would have broken even but now I'd be roughly £150 worse off, not taking into account any additional train costs I'd have for making essential journeys without claiming my third off.

However I only roughly estimated my season ticket cost for a monthly ticket last year.

Around the 8th however I was incorrectly under the impression they would backdate season ticket changeovers. I hadn't read anything to suggest they wouldn't and the SWR Web Site wasn't working.

I was advised to e-mail customer relations but I felt given they can't deal with season ticket refunds and similar at that point I might as well wait. I can't remember if I knew whether Guildford ticket office was open by that point.

They didn't really advertise they had all closed or that they had all reopened.

It could be argued if they don't state changeovers then it isn't going to be included but I was thinking maybe it's wider than they state.

Anyway you live and learn with these things. Still if anyone knows where I can go to look up last years prices for a monthly.

 

[island]

I can look them up for you if you want; would need origin and destination.

 

[Camden]

If I want to buy a train ticket today and waste that money (since I'm obviously not going to travel) that's my own look out.

There is nothing in a season ticket, season ticket changeover etc that says you must be traveling. The only law that matters is one that says when you do travel you must have a valid ticket.

In fact, I have a season ticket I haven't used in some time. But I've kept it for convenience sakes, for as and when I do want to use it. If that does happen. It may well not.

There are no conditions in law to test for in the issuance of a changeover, other than that you want one and are are willing to pay (or receive) the difference.

I have no intention of working or living in Fort William or Inverness, however if I should choose to hanker for a decorative Inverness to Fort William annual pass to keep in my London desk drawer for all eternity, that's my business and mine alone. If I choose to part pay for this exotic decorative pass with my current more local decorative pass, that likewise is my concern alone.

The rules that matter are the ones written in the black and white contract, not ones that disgruntled parties try to make up.