Season Ticket split - Tonbridge to Canary Wharf

[Rajan Malhotra]

Hi all,

I'm moving to Tonbridge fairly soon and while I'm really looking forward to it, what's giving me sleepless nights are the eye watering travel costs.

I currently commute from Grove Park in zone 4 to Canary Wharf which only costs me around £110 a month. Now I'm going to be commuting from Tonbridge to Canary Wharf which will set me back 4 times that!

I've read that there may be a perfectly legal solution to reducing the train costs slightly - split ticketing. But how would this work for my particular commute? I wouldn't want to be restricted by the route I take (the fast train calling only at Sevenoaks into London Bridge and then jubilee line to CW) but what season ticket or season tickets do I buy and would there be a significant saving?

I find it all a bit confusing so any help would be appreciated!

 

[island]

Split ticketing is of limited use for regular journeys on fast trains, as you can’t in most cases combine two season tickets or two non-season tickets unless the train calls at the point where you change from one ticket to the other.

Would you be willing to consider taking a stopping train and changing onto the DLR at Lewisham to get to Canary Wharf? You can save a material amount by avoiding zone 1.

 

[yorkie]

....I've read that there may be a perfectly legal solution to reducing the train costs slightly - split ticketing. But how would this work for my particular commute?

It is true that using a combination of two or more tickets for one journey may be cheaper than a through ticket for the journey (sometimes slightly, and sometimes massively).

But it is unlikely to work well for your particular commute; any savings will be small and you may lose flexibility.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Hi all,

I'm moving to Tonbridge fairly soon and while I'm really looking forward to it, what's giving me sleepless nights are the eye watering travel costs.

I currently commute from Grove Park in zone 4 to Canary Wharf which only costs me around £110 a month. Now I'm going to be commuting from Tonbridge to Canary Wharf which will set me back 4 times that!

I've read that there may be a perfectly legal solution to reducing the train costs slightly - split ticketing. But how would this work for my particular commute? I wouldn't want to be restricted by the route I take (the fast train calling only at Sevenoaks into London Bridge and then jubilee line to CW) but what season ticket or season tickets do I buy and would there be a significant saving?

I find it all a bit confusing so any help would be appreciated!

Split ticketing is indeed an entirely legal and legitimate practice used by many rail passengers. It involves getting more than one ticket to make a journey, usually on the grounds that a through ticket is not valid on the route the passenger wants to take, or (more commonly) because it can save money.

The latter is usually down to the fact that the tickets and fares for intermediate stretches of a journey may be priced by a number of companies other than the company which controls the through fare. For example, the price of London zonal train tickets is controlled and set by RDG, the rail industry body. However, Tonbridge to London fares are controlled and set by Southeastern.

Each of these organisations will have their own pricing strategies and structures, and hence sometimes it can be cheaper to combine tickets priced by different companies.

One notable limitation of split ticketing when done with non-season (individual) tickets is that the train you take must stop at the station(s) where you switch from one ticket to the next. However, when you combine one season ticket and another kind of ticket (it can be a non-season, individual, ticket or another season ticket) then there is no need for the train to stop at the "split" point.

For instance, if you had a Zones 1-6 Travelcard and a Boundary Zone 6 to Gatwick Airport Day Return (of any description) then you would not have to stop at the last station in Zone 6 for the combination to be valid. The only condition when splitting in this way (season ticket + another ticket) is that you pass through (regardless of whether you stop at) the station/point at which you are splitting.

In relation to your particular commute, there are no obvious splitting opportunities I am aware of; however, this does not mean there necessarily aren't any. Other posters may be able to advise as to any combination you may wish to use, as well as any limitations (in terms of the route usually) of using the combination.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Split ticketing is of limited use for regular journeys on fast trains, as you can’t in most cases combine two season tickets or two non-season tickets unless the train calls at the point where you change from one ticket to the other.

You have to call at the station(s) where you split ticket if you are using non-season tickets only. If you use one season ticket* and any one other kind of ticket (season, non-season etc.) then you do not need to stop at the split point.

The only thing that is unclear about this in the currwnt National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) is whether you would be permitted to do multiple non-stopping splits as long as there is at least one stopping split between each non-stopping split. So, whether, for example, you could use a combination of Birmingham-Coventry, Coventry-Rugby, Rugby-Milton Keynes and Milton Keynes-London season tickets (not that it's cheaper in any way) on a train which stops at Rugby but nowhere else.

*Concessionary passes, zonal products, rangers and rovers are also deemed as season tickets.

 

[island]

Yes, the nuances of the NRCoT did not come to mind.

 

[Hadders]

We should advise that while technically allowed by the NRCoT the use of two seasons and switching between them at a station where the train doesn’t call isn’t likely to be a hassle free journey.

 

[OwlMan]

We should advise that while technically allowed by the NRCoT the use of two seasons and switching between them at a station where the train doesn’t call isn’t likely to be a hassle free journey.

There is nothing "technically" about it. The IKB clearly states (in the season ticket section) that A customer may use two or more Season Tickets for their total journey and that the service does not need to call at the station where the change is made from one Season Ticket to another.

from iKB
Applying 'Condition 14.2' to Season Tickets (including Annual Gold Cards)
A customer may use two or more Season Tickets for their total journey. The service does
not need to call at the station where the change is made from one Season Ticket to another.

The full section of the document is attached

 

[Hadders]

There is nothing "technically" about it. The IKB clearly states (in the season ticket section) that A customer may use two or more Season Tickets for their total journey and that the service does not need to call at the station where the change is made from one Season Ticket to another.


The full section of the document is attached

Agreed, perhaps technically wasn't the best choice of word. I would still not expect a hassle free journey though - there are many staff who like to make up their own rules, claim that the NRCoT doesn't apply to their company etc.

 

[kieron]

One slightly cheaper option (in this case) would be to just get a travelcard for the zones you need.

A Tonbridge-New Cross season "not via London" costs £84/week or £322.60/month.
A zones 1-2 travelcard season costs £34.10/week or £131/month.
Total £118.10/week or £453.60/month.

I've quoted a month as that's what Rajan Malhotra did. It may be possible to get a better value ticket than these by buying a slightly longer period one which (for instance) starts on a Monday and ends on a Friday.

You can put the first of these on a Key card, and the second on an Oyster one, but I don't think anyone's yet made a piece of plastic which can accommodate both.

 

[alistairlees]

Hi all,

I'm moving to Tonbridge fairly soon and while I'm really looking forward to it, what's giving me sleepless nights are the eye watering travel costs.

I currently commute from Grove Park in zone 4 to Canary Wharf which only costs me around £110 a month. Now I'm going to be commuting from Tonbridge to Canary Wharf which will set me back 4 times that!

I've read that there may be a perfectly legal solution to reducing the train costs slightly - split ticketing. But how would this work for my particular commute? I wouldn't want to be restricted by the route I take (the fast train calling only at Sevenoaks into London Bridge and then jubilee line to CW) but what season ticket or season tickets do I buy and would there be a significant saving?

I find it all a bit confusing so any help would be appreciated!

The well-known (and publicised) split on this route is at New Cross.

Tonbridge to London Zones 1-6 seven-day Travelcard is £123.20

Alternatively
Tonbridge to New Cross (not via London) 7 day season is £84.00
New Cross to London Zones 1-2 weekly Travelcard is £34.10
Total: £118.10
Saving (per week): £5.10

Not much and you lose travel rights in zones 3 to 6 (except for the route of your season from Tonbridge to New Cross). But it might be worth it for £200+ per year (depending on the length of season tickets you buy).

 

[Bensonby]

Bit of an unusual one, but from later this year what about driving to Dartford (free parking about 10min walk from the station), then train to Abbey Wood and Crossrail to Canary Wharf?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Agreed, perhaps technically wasn't the best choice of word. I would still not expect a hassle free journey though - there are many staff who like to make up their own rules, claim that the NRCoT doesn't apply to their company etc.

There is not much that staff can do about it even if they do not like it - the tickets are both valid for entry and exit at either end, so there should be no issue at the barriers. The only place where there could be problems is on board the train if tickets are inspected. If any guard, conductor, RPI etc. were silly enough to make a problem over this entirely legitimate practice then I am sure @Rajan Malhotra would be able to ask on the forum for assistance in fighting any bogus Penalty Fares, excesses and the like.

 

[paul1609]

I'm intrigued as to which split the OP has in mind. Southeastern Zone 1 to 6 seasons on this line have generally been only moderately more than London Terminals tickets because of the range of Terminus available so boundary splits havent really worked. There was a situation where anytime returns to St Albans were cheaper than London Terminals but i understood that had been resolved by Thameslink handing pricing to Southeastern.

 

[alistairlees]

This is the article I was thinking of:

https://www.kentlive.news/news/train-fare-loophole-southeastern-commuters-916291

(beware of many pop up ads and other rubbish on the page)

A consideration is also: what happens if trains are diverted between London and Tonbridge to not go via New Cross (as is the case this weekend)? Strictly speaking the tickets would not be valid via Redhill, though it would also seem harsh of SE to claim this was the case.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

This is the article I was thinking of:

https://www.kentlive.news/news/train-fare-loophole-southeastern-commuters-916291

(beware of many pop up ads and other rubbish on the page)

A consideration is also: what happens if trains are diverted between London and Tonbridge to not go via New Cross (as is the case this weekend)? Strictly speaking the tickets would not be valid via Redhill, though it would also seem harsh of SE to claim this was the case.

If diversions are planned then you must buy new tickets where necessary (though you could of course insist on replacement transport to/from your tickets' origins and destinations, making the journey that way). If they are unplanned (i.e. the train is announced/planned as going one way and then is diverted enroute) then it is arguably still valid.

 

[island]

There is not much that staff can do about it even if they do not like it - the tickets are both valid for entry and exit at either end, so there should be no issue at the barriers. The only place where there could be problems is on board the train if tickets are inspected. If any guard, conductor, RPI etc. were silly enough to make a problem over this entirely legitimate practice then I am sure @Rajan Malhotra would be able to ask on the forum for assistance in fighting any bogus Penalty Fares, excesses and the like.

The problem is that there is quite a bit that staff can do about it if they do not like it, and for some members the tradeoff between cost and fighting improperly issued penalty fares, unpaid fares notices, etc. or even having their ticket withdrawn is non-trivial.

It’s not at all fair, but as the saying goes, you can beat the rap but you can’t beat the ride.

 

[kieron]

A consideration is also: what happens if trains are diverted between London and Tonbridge to not go via New Cross (as is the case this weekend)? Strictly speaking the tickets would not be valid via Redhill, though it would also seem harsh of SE to claim this was the case.

A Tonbridge-New Cross ticket covers the lines through Catford Bridge and Grove Park, but not through Croydon. If you have a zone 1-2 travelcard, it would cost an extra £8.30 for an off peak day return from Tonbridge to Brockley with a railcard. The alternative here is a rail replacement bus to Sevenoaks.

It is interesting to hear that a Southeastern spokesman has confirmed to a local paper that this sort of thing is allowed. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[Hadders]

The problem is that there is quite a bit that staff can do about it if they do not like it, and for some members the tradeoff between cost and fighting improperly issued penalty fares, unpaid fares notices, etc. or even having their ticket withdrawn is non-trivial.

It’s not at all fair, but as the saying goes, you can beat the rap but you can’t beat the ride.

Indeed. People come on here for advice on how to save money, they might not realise they have to endure a daily battle with threats of being thrown off the train, being detained by RPIs and prosecution. None of this would succeed but that’s not the point - you might have time to fight it but many people won’t have the time or the energy.

I suggest reading about the issues suffered by the likes of @jon0844, @RJ and @bnm to get an idea of what can happen if a member of staff doesn’t like the perfectly legitimate ticket you’re using.

 

[BluePenguin]

If you are an earlybird one option is to buy the "via Redhil" ticket for £83.50. The journey is longer and been even worse since direct trains were withdrawn in May to London.

How about a ticket from Strood? The routing guide has been updated and allows passengers with non HS tickets to now travel via Paddock Wood to London. This saves a small amount over buying from Tonbridge

Strood - New Cross £82.50 a week or £316.80 a month

Weekly Travelcard for Zones 1 -2 £34.10 or £131 for a month.

Total per week: £116.60
Total per month: £447.80

 

[yorkie]

How about a ticket from Strood? The routing guide has been updated and allows passengers with non HS tickets to now travel via Paddock Wood to London. This saves a small amount over buying from Tonbridge

Strood - New Cross £82.50 a week or £316.80 a month

Are you sure Strood to New Cross is valid via Tonbridge?

 

[BluePenguin]

Are you sure Strood to New Cross is valid via Tonbridge?

Yes I am 80% sure on the basis that Not Valid On HS1 tickets are valid via Paddock Wood (to London Terminals although it doesn't state that tickets to intermediate stations are not valid this way)

However to be absolutely sure, for political correctness and to cover all bases I have found an alternative: Cuxton - New Cross IS certainly valid via Tonbridge which I have double checked using a number of journey planners. In addition the exact same prices I provided above for Strood apply to Cuxton so this could be a possible option for the OP?