Senior Citizen Railcard Time Restrictions

[Titfield]

I am booking a ticket to travel from Wareham to London Waterloo on 7/3/2022 at 06:27. I have a Senior Railcard. South Western Railways booking engine is giving me the SC discount on an advance fare (ie the date and time of dept is set) and yet I am sure that the card can not be used at this time. Should I book this ticket or do I remove the railcard from the booking request? I do not want to have a problem on the day with the TTI even though the ticket will clearly show that it is for that date and time.

 

[Haywain]

I am booking a ticket to travel from Wareham to London Waterloo on 7/3/2022 at 06:27. I have a Senior Railcard. South Western Railways booking engine is giving me the SC discount on an advance fare (ie the date and time of dept is set) and yet I am sure that the card can not be used at this time. Should I book this ticket or do I remove the railcard from the booking request? I do not want to have a problem on the day with the TTI even though the ticket will clearly show that it is for that date and time.

There is no time restriction on the use of a Senior Railcard with Advance tickets, unlike with walk-up tickets, so you should go ahead and book if you are happy with the fare offered. In any event, if you buy at the price offered for an itinerary and travel on the specified trains a contract exists and you cannot be penalised even if the railcard turns out not to be valid (which it won't in your case).

 

[Titfield]

There is no time restriction on the use of a Senior Railcard with Advance tickets, unlike with walk-up tickets, so you should go ahead and book if you are happy with the fare offered. In any event, if you buy at the price offered for an itinerary and travel on the specified trains a contract exists and you cannot be penalised even if the railcard turns out not to be valid (which it won't in your case).

Thank you!

 

[wibble]

There is no time restriction on the use of a Senior Railcard with Advance tickets, unlike with walk-up tickets, so you should go ahead and book if you are happy with the fare offered. In any event, if you buy at the price offered for an itinerary and travel on the specified trains a contract exists and you cannot be penalised even if the railcard turns out not to be valid (which it won't in your case).

That's incorrect. The Senior Railcard website states "Your Senior Railcard is NOT valid when travelling between two stations in the Network Railcard area of validity during morning peak time." and there is nothing to say this rule doesn't apply to Advance.

However, @Titfield, if the SWR website gives you the Senior Railcard discount on that train, you're entitled to use it.

 

[geoffk]

This restriction must go back to the time when NSE fares were substantially lower than Inter-City over a similar distance so railcard discounts were cut back accordingly, but it now seems illogical to include places as far from London as Exeter, Weymouth, Worcester and Kings Lynn. When I moved to Exeter I realised this might be an issue so made enquiries via Barry Doe and he explained that the Senior Railcard is not valid 'until the off-peak Day Return comes in for the journey you wish to make' which is sometimes much earlier than the oft-quoted 10.00.

 

[Haywain]

the Senior Railcard is not valid 'until the off-peak Day Return comes in for the journey you wish to make' which is sometimes much earlier than the oft-quoted 10.00.

Off Peak fares are generally valid from 09:30, or often earlier and increasingly have a restriction when travelling to London on the arrival time rather than departure, that arrival time being 10:00. The "oft-quoted 10:00" is more likely the restriction on when a Network Railcard can be used.

 

[JonathanH]

This restriction must go back to the time when NSE fares were substantially lower than Inter-City over a similar distance so railcard discounts were cut back accordingly

It goes back to 1993 when NSE were looking for ways to increase revenue, and identified that people aged over 60 were using their Senior Railcard to commute to work. A similar restriction was applied to the Family Railcard at the same time.

but it now seems illogical to include places as far from London as Exeter, Weymouth, Worcester and Kings Lynn.

Not particularly. The change was even noted as encouraging people to travel when there was more capacity. (I seem to recall the gist of the messaging being something like 'you don't really want to travel at peak time, why not leave it until there is more room on the trains'.)

 

[island]

That's incorrect. The Senior Railcard website states "Your Senior Railcard is NOT valid when travelling between two stations in the Network Railcard area of validity during morning peak time." and there is nothing to say this rule doesn't apply to Advance.

Indeed.

The restriction applies for travel entirely within the NR area, until "off-peak services start".

There is no off-peak single from Wareham to London Terminals, however!

I also looked at the off-peak return, which is expressed as "not valid on trains arriving into... London Waterloo before 09:52".

The OP's train is to arrive there at 08:48, which would be too early. That train from Weymouth, 1W90, attaches to another train, 1B94 from Bournemouth, at Southampton, and continues as 1B94 to Waterloo. Perhaps the system does not see 1W90 as "arriving in Waterloo" at all as a result.

Either of these two reasons could be why the OP has been permitted to use their Railcard earlier than it ought to be usable, or it could be a glitch. But in summary:

If the SWR website gives you the Senior Railcard discount on that train, you're entitled to use it.

 

[Iggy12a]

The OP stated he was buying an Advance ticket. Advance tickets are not marketed as being peak or off peak. If an advance ticket is sold with a discount applied, the ticket has to be valid on that train (and no other).

 

[Sleepy]

I can buy an Advance ticket with Senior railcard for £12.50 on the 0556 from Manningtree to Liverpoool St. (Which is the most overcrowded peak time service from Colchester !) Anytime without discount £37.90. Ticket splits understandably now common on this route.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Either of these two reasons could be why the OP has been permitted to use their Railcard earlier than it ought to be usable, or it could be a glitch.

I think the reason is that in practice the check depends on the fare route. E.g. the Off-Peak Day Return (CDR) fares via different routes may have different validity (for example if set by different TOCs), and that would result in different validity for the SRN/FAM railcard discount. The route codes used by the advance fares won't have any CDR fares to check when they become available, so by default there will no time restriction on usage of SRN/FAM railcards. And of course, a reservation must be booked and that requires the railcard to be specified, at which point the TOC could block the availability if it wanted. So I guess it's fairly safe to assume that these are intended to be valid.

 

[island]

The OP stated he was buying an Advance ticket. Advance tickets are not marketed as being peak or off peak.

This, with respect, is neither here nor there. The rules of Senior Railcard are that the Railcard is not valid on journeys entirely within the Network area in the morning peak.

 

[Iggy12a]

This, with respect, is neither here nor there. The rules of Senior Railcard are that the Railcard is not valid on journeys entirely within the Network area in the morning peak.

Please define the peak period in relation to an Advance ticket.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Don't have a source now but I thought the rule was along the lines of "not valid before the relevant CDR becomes available". In the case of an advance flow there is no relevant CDR and thus the rule doesn't apply?

 

[stuartl]

This, with respect, is neither here nor there. The rules of Senior Railcard are that the Railcard is not valid on journeys entirely within the Network area in the morning peak

That's what it says in the T&Cs, but looking on the SWR website at the journey the OP booked it says on the ticket details 'railcard is applicable on this ticket' for a senior rail card. I'd be inclined to take a screenshoot of it in case of any arguments.
However, if I choose a network railcard that message doesn't appear until the 10:22 departure.

 

[island]

Please define the peak period in relation to an Advance ticket.

The definition can be found in the T&Cs of the Senior Railcard and has already been stated several times on thread.

 

[EveningStar]

As somebody on the cusp of getting a Senior Railcard and some journeys planned, couple of thoughts.

As I read the T&C, the restriction does not apply if travelling from a station within the Network area to one outside.

The other thought is does the restriction apply to using an all line railrover with Senior Citizen railcard? The answer may appear obvious, yet this restriction is (a) not included with other restrictions for using a railrover, and (b) unlimited travel is different from the railcard restriction of, “between two stations”. At the very least, if the restriction does apply I am surprised not to see it (assuming not overlooked, of course!) on the railrover T&C.

 

[Haywain]

As I read the T&C, the restriction does not apply if travelling from a station within the Network area to one outside.

That's correct and vice versa. Note that it applies to the ticket, rather than the journey.

The other thought is does the restriction apply to using an all line railrover with Senior Citizen railcard?

It would be impossible to impose such a restriction, as the journey cannot be defined.

 

[Watershed]

That's correct and vice versa. Note that it applies to the ticket, rather than the journey.

That's not what the Railcard conditions say:

4.2 Discounts are not available on tickets for travel on morning peak services for journeys that start and end within the London & South East area (defined by the Network Railcard area – network-railcard.co.uk/map) on Monday to Friday (except on public holidays).

The restriction there applies if your tickets are for a journey that's within the restricted period. So a technical interpretation would say that if you bought a London to Peterborough ticket, but used it to make a journey to Huntingdon, the restriction would still apply notwithstanding the fact that Peterborough is outside the Network Area.

The corollary of that is that split tickets would not have any time restriction, even if almost all of your tickets are for sections of route that are solely within the Network Area.

Incidentally, the restriction is unbelievably wooly and undefined in terms of what "morning peak services" means; they purport to give themselves complete leeway to define that term, which is likely to constitute an unfair term under Part 2 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015

It would be impossible to impose such a restriction, as the journey cannot be defined.

Of course it can! A member of staff would simply ask where you are coming from and where you are going. Most people would not be switched-on enough to say somewhere outside the Network Area if their destination were actually within it.

That being said, I imagine it's unlikely any member of staff has read the Railcard conditions and so they are unlikely to be aware that the restriction is technically on journeys rather than tickets, as discussed above. They are likely to apply it on a ticket basis, regardless of what the wording actually says.

 

[Hadders]

I though the morning restriction was specifically that discounted tickets for journeys wholly within the Network Railcard Area were linked to the time that the Off Peak Day Return became valid. Looking at the tems and conditions I now see it says it can vary by station (which it will of linked to the Off Peak Day Return).

Why can't they just revert to the previous wording, it was far easier to understand.

 

[Haywain]

The restriction there applies if your tickets are for a journey that's within the restricted period. So a technical interpretation would say that if you bought a London to Peterborough ticket, but used it to make a journey to Huntingdon, the restriction would still apply notwithstanding the fact that Peterborough is outside the Network Area.

The restriction is implemented at ticket level, on tickets which have an origin and destination within the Network Railcard area. As no additional restriction is imposed to prevent break of journey there would be absolutely nothing to stop the holder of a London to Peterborough ticket leaving the station at Huntingdon. And it simply isn't possible to force them to continue to Peterborough.

Of course it can! A member of staff would simply ask where you are coming from and where you are going. Most people would not be switched-on enough to say somewhere outside the Network Area if their destination were actually within it.

But, as stated above, the reestriction is imposed at ticket level and the All Line Railrover does not have either origin or destination stated, and must therefore be considered a ticket which does not fulfil the criteria for restricting the time of use.

 

[Watershed]

The restriction is implemented at ticket level, on tickets which have an origin and destination within the Network Railcard area. As no additional restriction is imposed to prevent break of journey there would be absolutely nothing to stop the holder of a London to Peterborough ticket leaving the station at Huntingdon. And it simply isn't possible to force them to continue to Peterborough.

The way that the restriction is implemented in the industry data for TISs is a different matter to the contractual validity - in much the same way as the wording of a restriction code does not necessarily always match the way what the data says. Naturally, the more favourable of the two for the passenger prevails.

In this particular case, the passenger could effectively 'get away' with finishing their journey short at Huntington by claiming to intend to break their journey there, and later recommence it, if questioned - which would comply with the wording. But again, a less clued-up passenger who admitted to only intending to travel to Huntingdon in the first place could be detected as falling foul of the restriction.

But, as stated above, the reestriction is imposed at ticket level and the All Line Railrover does not have either origin or destination stated, and must therefore be considered a ticket which does not fulfil the criteria for restricting the time of use.

I agree that in practice, it's unlikely that any such restrictions are likely to be enforced on an All Line Rover.

However, as mentioned above, the fact that the industry data doesn't reflect the wording of the condition doesn't negate the fact that e.g. travelling just from London to Huntingdon on an ALR would technically be in breach of the condition.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The way that the restriction is implemented in the industry data

To clarify, it is not. It requires special hacks to be written by journey planner suppliers.

 

[cav1975]

I regularly use senior railcard discounted advance tickets on SWR services before 9am on weekdays. They seem to be available through most booking websites. In my experience SWR guards always check the tickets. I offer my railcard for inspection with the ticket. I have never had an issue.

The OP should not be concerned but as a safeguard should carry a copy of the itinerary from the booking site.

 

[Haywain]

I regularly use senior railcard discounted tickets on SWR services before 9am on weekdays. They seem to be available through most booking websites. In my experience SWR guards always check the tickets. I offer my railcard for inspection with the ticket. I have never had an issue.

The OP should not be concerned but as a safeguard should carry a copy of the itinerary from the booking site.

Are these Advance tickets? The restrictions only apply to walk-up tickets.

 

[cav1975]

Are these Advance tickets? The restrictions only apply to walk-up tickets.

Yes, sorry - I have edited my post to make this clear.

 

[Titfield]

Travelled today. Ticket Check. Accepted with no problems.