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Sensible proposals for restarting the electrification programme

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Bald Rick

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Before the Felixstowe branch is even considered, I would say you have to consider other routes that the freight use eg Ipswich to Peterborough etc

But more importantly, I think we should consider the likes of Ely to Peterborough, Peterborough to Birmingham via Leicester and Nuneaton which would give the ability to run 4 car EMUs instead of 2 or 3 car DMUs on a major XC route.

It would also mean journey times could be sped up using EMUs as trains would be faster and cleaner as well as more seats.

About 2/3rds of the freight out of Felixstowe heads up the GEML, and 3/4 of that then heads up the WCML, generally to electrified destinations. It’s a big win in terms of diesel miles replaced for quantity of wiring. Also, electric hauling freight up Brentwood Bank has a significant impact on GEML capacity / journey times for passenger services in the off peak.

Wiring the whole route from Haughley to Birmingham would be a lot of money for rather little gain in terms of diesel miles replaced. The train length issue is easily solved; cascaded DMUs from the lines that are electrified.

We don't want to have otherwise-good routes knocked back because of the costs of electrifying places with clearance problems, and I doubt that battery main-line trains will be made to work soon either.

Battery main line trains already work; they are in service elsewhere in Europe. They’ll be in use in this country before the next major electrification project is complete (ie one that has yet to start). Indeed there will be battery hybrid locomotives in service in this country next month.

Quite a few replies without any reasoning for ‘why’ - automatically disqualified!

For me it is about the greatest quality of diesel vehicle km that can be converted to electric vehicle km; with second order benefits of quicker acceleration for routes where capacity is at a premium.
 
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ohgoditsjames

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Doncaster-Sheffield-Derby-Birmingham and Sheffield to Leeds. Creates a nice electric link between the ECML, MML and WCML, removes many diesel XC services and allows XC to operate long distance services with Bimodes and the Northern services in Sheffield to Leeds and Doncaster can be served by EMU’s.
 

yorksrob

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Ashford - Ore. Eminently sensible.

Why ?

The same reason NSE did all its infills.

Oh, and you can run an Ashford to Brighton service that's actually long enough to cope with the numbers of passengers.
 

Tobbes

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About 2/3rds of the freight out of Felixstowe heads up the GEML, and 3/4 of that then heads up the WCML, generally to electrified destinations. It’s a big win in terms of diesel miles replaced for quantity of wiring. Also, electric hauling freight up Brentwood Bank has a significant impact on GEML capacity / journey times for passenger services in the off peak.

I really don't understand why Felixstowe - NW is routed this way; GEML south, NNL and WCML south are some of the busiest railways in Britain (and therefore presumably Europe) and except for freight actually bound for London, it would seem sensible to route all of that capacity absorbing frieght cross-country. And yes, I'd electrify Felixstowe-Ipswich and Haughley to Nuneaton (and if you've done that, it would be mad not to electrify Cambs-Newmarket up to the junction.

Wiring the whole route from Haughley to Birmingham would be a lot of money for rather little gain in terms of diesel miles replaced.

Not sure I understand why, @Bald Rick ? Surely it would remove the majoirty of diesel hauled frieght on GEML/NNR/WCML.
 

Aictos

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About 2/3rds of the freight out of Felixstowe heads up the GEML, and 3/4 of that then heads up the WCML, generally to electrified destinations. It’s a big win in terms of diesel miles replaced for quantity of wiring. Also, electric hauling freight up Brentwood Bank has a significant impact on GEML capacity / journey times for passenger services in the off peak.

Wiring the whole route from Haughley to Birmingham would be a lot of money for rather little gain in terms of diesel miles replaced. The train length issue is easily solved; cascaded DMUs from the lines that are electrified.



Battery main line trains already work; they are in service elsewhere in Europe. They’ll be in use in this country before the next major electrification project is complete (ie one that has yet to start). Indeed there will be battery hybrid locomotives in service in this country next month.

Quite a few replies without any reasoning for ‘why’ - automatically disqualified!

For me it is about the greatest quality of diesel vehicle km that can be converted to electric vehicle km; with second order benefits of quicker acceleration for routes where capacity is at a premium.

While you may have a point on Felixstowe, locos can change over at Ipswich yard from Diesel to Electric so no idea why this isn’t done more.

Equally, electrifying the main cross country route from East Anglia to the West Midlands eg Ipswich to Birmingham via Ely, Peterborough, Leicester and Nuneaton does not just benefit the hourly Birmingham to Stansted service but also would benefit the Birmingham to Leicester service when and if it transfers to West Midlands Railway as EMUs could be used.

With Class 350/2s being diagrammed on the services, the existing services would be faster, cleaner and more reliable with the DMUs going to places that ain’t going to be wired up.


The Leicester stoppers could be increased to 2tph and extended to Peterborough allowing the Stansted service to be sped up which is good for developing the route and delivering capacity which is much better then just putting on more DMUs.
 

Bald Rick

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I really don't understand why Felixstowe - NW is routed this way; GEML south, NNL and WCML south are some of the busiest railways in Britain (and therefore presumably Europe) and except for freight actually bound for London, it would seem sensible to route all of that capacity absorbing frieght cross-country. And yes, I'd electrify Felixstowe-Ipswich and Haughley to Nuneaton (and if you've done that, it would be mad not to electrify Cambs-Newmarket up to the junction.

Not sure I understand why, @Bald Rick ? Surely it would remove the majoirty of diesel hauled frieght on GEML/NNR/WCML.

Because the cross country route is just about full - at Ely, between March and Peterborough, and in the Leicester area. You can’t send any more that way, electric or not, without significant capacity improvements.

You can convert more than half (60%?) the diesel Felixstowe to the Midlands /north / Scotland traffic to electric by wiring around 28 miles of track, whilst the other 40% needs around 260 miles of wiring. Bang per buck and all that.
 

Bald Rick

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While you may have a point on Felixstowe, locos can change over at Ipswich yard from Diesel to Electric so no idea why this isn’t done more.

Space in the yard, journey time effect, pathing, GBRf not having many suitable electric locos. Just some of the issues.
 

Bald Rick

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Which reminds me, a couple of other freight schemes - London Gateway and Nuneaton - Lawley St / Grand Junction.
 

Greybeard33

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Amongst the "low hanging fruit" are the SE Manchester suburban lines. Ashburys to New Mills Central via Bredbury and Hyde Jn to Rose Hill Marple. Lots of DMUs replaced by EMUs for relatively few STK electrified. Diesel pollution eliminated in built up areas. DMUs under the wires avoided between Piccadilly and Hyde Jn. Frequency improvements at inner suburban stations currently skip stopped. Journey time and capacity improvements on these busy commuter lines. What not to like?

Possibly also Hazel Grove to Buxton. More costly because of the tunnels, but 2tphpd DMUs, under the wires all the way from Piccadilly to Hazel Grove, replaced by EMUs.
 

Bald Rick

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Why ?

The same reason NSE did all its infills.

Oh, and you can run an Ashford to Brighton service that's actually long enough to cope with the numbers of passengers.

Well train length isn’t a function of what powers the train.

From memory (happy to be corrected) NSE did two types of electrification:

‘Main line’: routes with, typically, at least a half hourly service of longish trains in the peak, perhaps shorter off peak, with significant passenger flows and thus significant aggregate potential journey time benefits, and often where diesels mixed with electric on congested routes such that going electric ‘homogenised’ the pathing and in some cases released capacity. E.g. Stortford / Royston - Cambridge, Hastings, Weymouth, Grinstead.

‘Branch line’: short branches, usually single track, usually able to be delivered very cheaply as no extra power supply was needed, and the service could be provided by units that were otherwise ‘spare’ - ie no new rolling stock required. Eg Abbey branch, Romford-Upminster, Stratford - North Woolwich, Southminster.

Of all these, Ashford - Ore is closest to Southminster. But it’s much longer, would need a new power supply, would need new units, and doesn’t have the level of use that (currently) would justify it. There are much higher priorities than this, given the proposals posted above. Besides, Ashford - Ore will get electric trains soon enough, just without electrification. Same benefits, much cheaper.
 

yorksrob

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Well train length isn’t a function of what powers the train.

From memory (happy to be corrected) NSE did two types of electrification:

‘Main line’: routes with, typically, at least a half hourly service of longish trains in the peak, perhaps shorter off peak, with significant passenger flows and thus significant aggregate potential journey time benefits, and often where diesels mixed with electric on congested routes such that going electric ‘homogenised’ the pathing and in some cases released capacity. E.g. Stortford / Royston - Cambridge, Hastings, Weymouth, Grinstead.

‘Branch line’: short branches, usually single track, usually able to be delivered very cheaply as no extra power supply was needed, and the service could be provided by units that were otherwise ‘spare’ - ie no new rolling stock required. Eg Abbey branch, Romford-Upminster, Stratford - North Woolwich, Southminster.

Of all these, Ashford - Ore is closest to Southminster. But it’s much longer, would need a new power supply, would need new units, and doesn’t have the level of use that (currently) would justify it. There are much higher priorities than this, given the proposals posted above. Besides, Ashford - Ore will get electric trains soon enough, just without electrification. Same benefits, much cheaper.

Train length might not be a function of what powers the train under normal circumstances, but where you have a limited number of 2 carriage diesels with no prospect of these being supplemented, the number of diesel trains becomes very much the limiting factor.

I would put the Marshlink as closer to Havant - Eastleigh/St Denys. A reasonably well used non-London route with services overlapping with the electrified network.
 

Meerkat

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Didcot - Oxford (most of the hard work is already done, quick to restart, likely to be first to finish)
Awaiting decision on quadrupling?
Stalybridge - Manchester Vic (in the NW, relatively advanced, quite a few services would benefit)
Is the plan for Miles Platting oven ready?
Neville Hill - Colton / Hambleton (in the north east, local and long distance services benefit)
Dependent on TRU and NPR? Might involve quadrupling?
Birmingham Snow Hill suburban network: Stratford / Dorridge - Kiddy, possibly Worcester (something for the W Mids, and removes a substantial chunk of diesel running through the new central Birmingham ULEZ)
Defo seems a goer - no significant changes in the pipeline and urban. Keep going to Banbury after.
Ely to Peterbrough also. Fairly straightforward - with excellent possibilties for service alterations in a growing region.
Then transfer Nottingham-Norwich to Anglia (do they have follow on options on 755?)
 

daodao

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Amongst the "low hanging fruit" are the SE Manchester suburban lines. Ashburys to New Mills Central via Bredbury and Hyde Jn to Rose Hill Marple. Lots of DMUs replaced by EMUs for relatively few STK electrified. Diesel pollution eliminated in built up areas. DMUs under the wires avoided between Piccadilly and Hyde Jn. Frequency improvements at inner suburban stations currently skip stopped. Journey time and capacity improvements on these busy commuter lines. What not to like?

Possibly also Hazel Grove to Buxton. More costly because of the tunnels, but 2tphpd DMUs, under the wires all the way from Piccadilly to Hazel Grove, replaced by EMUs.

The solution to the ex-GC suburban network in SE Manchester is conversion to Metrolink.
 

daodao

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I'm not sure I understand this assertion.

Surely both fast trains an hour from Paddington to Oxford are operated by bi-modes, so both would benefit from the extra "under the wires" mileage; the fact that one of those trains continues on to Worcester is irrelevant. In addition, the Didcot to Oxford Turbo DMU shuttle would be replaced by extending the half hourly Paddington to Didcot EMU stoppers to their natural -and traditional- terminus at Oxford; with the added benefit of restoring direct trains all day from places like Goring & Pangbourne etc. to Oxford.

I'd add Reading to Basingstoke, and the surely cheap to do Windsor & Henley on Thames branches too. If Chiltern were to be electrified then perhaps the Greenford branch and the short stretch to Northolt Jcn. as well, to tie the two routes together.

The only real benefit would be enabling 1 of the 2 fast tph from Paddington to Oxford to be run by an emu rather than a bi-mode train
 

HSTEd

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About 2/3rds of the freight out of Felixstowe heads up the GEML, and 3/4 of that then heads up the WCML, generally to electrified destinations. It’s a big win in terms of diesel miles replaced for quantity of wiring. Also, electric hauling freight up Brentwood Bank has a significant impact on GEML capacity / journey times for passenger services in the off peak.
Will Felixstowe Branch actually lead to much electric freight?

Aren't all the spare electric locomotives still owned by DB Schenker?
Given freights reticence to spend any money I am skeptical they will spend any resources to buy new freight locomotives.

I think given the current glut of EMU stock, priority should be schemes that allow productive use of those EMUs.

So Manchester suburban and things like that.
Chiltern would allow redeployment of all the surplus Class 319s and Class 365s for relatively little track mileage.
 
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Tobbes

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Will Felixstowe Branch actually lead to much electric freight?

Aren't all the spare electric locomotives still owned by DB Schenker?
Given freights reticence to spend any money I am skeptical they will spend any resources to buy new freight locomotives.

This is an interesting point, and illustrates the public policy implications of privatisation, e.g., it is better for the environment to have modal shift from road to rail, but it would be better still if the modal shift were to electric haulage. However, as intermodal margins are tight/very tight, agressively incentivising electric haulage by increasing access charges for diesel haulage risks simply pricing containers back onto roads. What is really needed is road pricing reflecting pollution and congestion, but no government has been brave enough.
 

HSTEd

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Tram-trains would require the lines to be electrified, so it is not a case of either-or. TfGM is not yet committed to tram-trains.
No they wouldn't.
Diesel tram trains are not unknown on the continent.
 

Tobbes

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Because the cross country route is just about full - at Ely, between March and Peterborough, and in the Leicester area. You can’t send any more that way, electric or not, without significant capacity improvements.

You can convert more than half (60%?) the diesel Felixstowe to the Midlands /north / Scotland traffic to electric by wiring around 28 miles of track, whilst the other 40% needs around 260 miles of wiring. Bang per buck and all that.
Fair enough. But I presume you'd still want to do the 260 miles at some point?
 

Jack Hay

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The solution to the ex-GC suburban network in SE Manchester is conversion to Metrolink.
No, it isn't. Metrolink is a monster that does not operate like a railway. Places beyond the GM boundary lose their through services. Low maximum speed owing to drive on sight slows the longer journeys. Cramped interiors owing to the need to travel the narrow and sharply curved city centre tracks make the travelling environment inferior to trains. Doesn't operate to a published timetable. No compensation for cancelled or delayed services. Doesn't honour Railcards. And so on...
 

Jack Hay

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Top of my list for electrification would be from Deansgate to Liverpool South Parkway via Warrington Central
. I second this. Three trains per hour each way would switch to electric. The large number of stations means the electrics acceleration will be a big benefit. And it is a very simple project. All that's left to wire is Trafford Park East Jn to Hunts Cross. It's almost all plain line and there are no tunnels. Simples.
 

Sir Felix Pole

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One possibility that has been doing the rounds is Totnes to Plymouth, or part thereof, over the South Devon Banks. The 802s, despite their up-rated performance, are noticeably slower on the gradients than their predecessors. Dainton is particularly bad, having the steepest section and most incessant curvature. Cross-Country are also likely to be inflicted with the b****y things in due course. Most of the over-bridges on the Rattery to Hemerdon section date from the 1893 doubling so no 'Steventon' issues, although Marley Tunnel has twin bores and may require a 'Farnworth' solution. The line is low-speed so does not need the 'battleship' OHLE seen on the South Wales ML and the 400kV National Grid trunk follows the route closely. It is also 'something for the South West' to use a phrase up-thread.
 

Purple Orange

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I keep reading words to the effect that electrifying a line can result in increased frequencies, but what sort of frequency could we expect on a given line? I.e. if all services that go through the Castlefield corridor were electric, would that increase frequencies through Manc Picc P13 & P14?
 

Kite159

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The only real benefit would be enabling 1 of the 2 fast tph from Paddington to Oxford to be run by an emu rather than a bi-mode train

Plus the half hourly Didcot - Oxford shuttles, releases DMUs. The Banbury stations can be a shuttle between Oxford & Banbury.
 

swt_passenger

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I would put the Marshlink as closer to Havant - Eastleigh/St Denys. A reasonably well used non-London route with services overlapping with the electrified network.
That’s a reasonable example of where the service after electrification bears little resemblance to what happened before. IIRC Portsmouth to Waterloo via Eastleigh, 2 tph in the peak flow direction, wasn’t possible at all before electrification. On the other hand, in the 70s Portsmouth to Salisbury used to see DMU stoppers, which became electric but were cut back to Southampton.

The implication is that when thinking of electrification we should look at the best practical future service patterns, not just EMUs directly replacing DMUs “1 for 1”, as it were...
 

yorksrob

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That’s a reasonable example of where the service after electrification bears little resemblance to what happened before. IIRC Portsmouth to Waterloo via Eastleigh, 2 tph in the peak flow direction, wasn’t possible at all before electrification. On the other hand, in the 70s Portsmouth to Salisbury used to see DMU stoppers, which became electric but were cut back to Southampton.

The implication is that when thinking of electrification we should look at the best practical future service patterns, not just EMUs directly replacing DMUs “1 for 1”, as it were...

This is a very good point.

My formarive years of using the Marshlink, it was a shuttle between Ashford and Hastings. I loved it, it worked fine for me, but my family (weird normals that they are) weren't up for changes there and Lewes. The full value of the route became more apparant with through services.

The route needs electrification to be able to get the full benefit of through services (although the thumpers with a CEP trailer inserted were good as well - there were'nt enough, like today, and being thirty years old by then, weren't as reliable as they once were).
 

tbtc

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Ignoring the Oxford/ Bristol bits of GWML (which are surely going to happen before long, but we have to align the electrification schedule to the resignalling/remodelling timetable...

....my priorities/expectation would be along the lines of:

1. Tiny bits of electrification left over by BR's penny pinching (e.g. the turn backs at Adwick and Morpeth which would permit EMUs to take over shuttles from Doncaster and Newcastle (bearing in mind @swt_passenger 's comment about future service patterns not being the same as current ones)

2. Routes that have self contained routes that are at least half hourly services that could be converted (much of the Valley Lines network, the CLC from Liverpool to Manchester) - ideally routes that don't require major disruption at main stations (e.g. I'd suggest Sheffield - Doncaster but you'd probably spend half the budget on all the lines at Sheffield required to do it properly) - Queen Street to Anniesland or Central to East Kilbride are Scottish equivalents, though I appreciate we're not talking Scotland here

3. Routes where bi-mode trains would remove a high frequency of diesel fumes from a city centre (but it isn't feasible to do the whole line right now - if you were considering ordering bi-modes for the next Chiltern franchise then you could wire up the section inside the M25 without having to go all the way to Birmingham - if you wanted to improve air quality in Birmingham you could wire much of the "core" of the Snow Hill lines and let bi-mode trains power themselves all the way to Stratford/ Worcester etc - either scheme would be too much to ask for in full right now but both are the kind of projects where bi-mode could do the heavy lifting in the polluted cities, without having to find money for the quieter sections of the routes.

4. New passenger lines - e.g. the proposed Ashington services (if a line is worth opening then it should have to justify at least a half hourly service and full electrification from day one)

5. Lines where you could electrify a section that currently has frequent services and change the service pattern - e.g. you could wire from Leeds to Knaresborough and free up a lot of DMUs - as long as you replaced the York service with a separate DMU that goes no further west than Harrogate

6. I don't think that we are going to see all the money spent in one area, if anything happens it'll be a Government who want to show that they are spreading their monies around the country, but there are some "regional" schemes that would have big benefits - e.g. Leeds/ Selby to Hull - but probably too much to expect all the eggs in one basket

7. Something nakedly political - e.g. Bishop Auckland to Saltburn would mean investment in two of the high profile "red wall" seats (Bishop Auckland and Redcar), as well as being very good publicity for the Tees Valley Mayor (who is coincidently a conservative) - I'm not saying it'd be *my* priority but if I was a Downing Street svengali then I'd see lots of good news headlines in being seen to invest in neglected "left behind" towns that Labour apparently ignored - keeping these places Tory is going to be hard work (assuming Labour are smart enough to elect someone credible like Starmer/ Nandy). I'm sure they'd like to consider Workington on the list, given its political significance, but I can't see that happening

.

.

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99. Anything based on "diversionary resilience" or the "if you build it, they will come" approach
 

ainsworth74

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e.g. Bishop Auckland to Saltburn

Are you trying to kill me off through shock?! :o:o

I don't think I've ever seen anyone suggest my own route for electrification outside the darkest of fever dreams :lol:
 
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