"Service reported as being busy"

[LJA]

Not against them providing the info, but I think it’s pretty useless for most travellers tbh.

Understandably people don’t want to (or can’t) wait - & what if the next ones even worse, or cancelled etc. “Busy” is fairly meaningless without further detail, and can never guarantee how accurate it is.

 

[trainophile]

It would be more use to me if they put information out when seat reservations aren't working. Saves getting on at your assigned coach only to find you'd probably have been better off in the unreserved one.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

One thing I think it shows is that passengers are definitely returning and there should be a change of messaging soon from cutting services back to increasing services, interesting to see the numbers from October onwards this year.

Passenger flows have changed though, southern commuter flows are not where the money is anymore

 

[Peter Sarf]

One thing I think it shows is that passengers are definitely returning and there should be a change of messaging soon from cutting services back to increasing services, interesting to see the numbers from October onwards this year.

Passenger flows have changed though, southern commuter flows are not where the money is anymore

Yes. I think it is the loss of season ticket revenue that is really hammering the railways finances. Off peak fares are not high enough without the the extra from peak travel. So I fear no extra off peak trains without higher fares.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes. I think it is the loss of season ticket revenue that is really hammering the railways finances. Off peak fares are not high enough without the the extra from peak travel. So I fear no extra off peak trains without higher fares.

Season ticket users typically pay per day a sum similar to an off peak return, though.

If anything it's the loss of business travellers willing to pay outrageous Anytime fares.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Season ticket users typically pay per day a sum similar to an off peak return, though.

If anything it's the loss of business travellers willing to pay outrageous Anytime fares.

Your right - I think zoom has destroyed a lot of business travel.

For commuting I think what hurts is the money up front (for twelve months) no longer materialising. Plus the trend from peak travel five days a week to off peak travel and for less than five days a week.

There were always dreams/aspirations of a smoothed out demand for trains but not really envisaged as by reducing the overall demand so much !.

 

[AM9]

I think what hurts is the money up front (for twelve months) no longer materialising. Plus the trend from peak travel five days a week to off peak travel and for less than five days a week.

There were always dreams/aspirations of a smoothed out demand for trains but not really envisaged as by reducing the overall demand so much !.

The costs associated with running peak services far outweigh the fares gathered from season tickets. Some trains only run two journeys per day, one in the morning peks that other in the evening peak. They still need to be purchased/leased, maintained, stored and crewed. The stations need to have crowd and train capacity, as does the rest of the infrastructure.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The costs associated with running peak services far outweigh the fares gathered from season tickets. Some trains only run two journeys per day, one in the morning peks that other in the evening peak. They still need to be purchased/leased, maintained, stored and crewed. The stations need to have crowd and train capacity, as does the rest of the infrastructure.

So the railways really ought to be better able to afford to run the extra trains to cater for the smother demand.

Although the smother demand might not be smooth enough ?.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

So the railways really ought to be better able to afford to run the extra trains to cater for the smother demand.

Although the smother demand might not be smooth enough ?.

I think the figures aren't published but you have to look at each TOC, TPE, Avanti etc aren't running reliable services, note Avanti have improved though, so cannot get the revenue and potentially black holes for money!!! The TOCs that have been reliable are getting to busy and some are now revenue positive to the Treasury.

The risk is that the whole industry is being tarred with the same brush

 

[Peter Sarf]

I think the figures aren't published but you have to look at each TOC, TPE, Avanti etc aren't running reliable services, note Avanti have improved though, so cannot get the revenue and potentially black holes for money!!! The TOCs that have been reliable are getting to busy and some are now revenue positive to the Treasury.

The risk is that the whole industry is being tarred with the same brush

My bold.
That is a risk - the news media like a good story and anything (however positive) that spoils that is ignored in their "story".

 

[Snow1964]

And what would you do if the next service was "reported as being busy" too?

I agree, the info is pretty useless on its own, unless they also give info on following train or alternatives.

Currently it's effectively saying your train is busy, but you will have to guess if alternative is busier.

The only useful interpretation would be if it is saying we realise its busy and additional carriages will be added at this station, but in reality it's saying its busy, hard luck, we don't care enough to use some of our profits to do something about it.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I agree, the info is pretty useless on its own, unless they also give info on following train or alternatives.

Currently it's effectively saying your train is busy, but you will have to guess if alternative is busier.

The only useful interpretation would be if it is saying we realise its busy and additional carriages will be added at this station, but in reality it's saying its busy, hard luck, we don't care enough to use some of our profits to do something about it.

Not really, it depends on the location. If, let's say, you're at Crewe and the TfW service to Man Picc is a 150 reported as full and standing, anyone with a walk-up, non-TOC specific ticket can decide they don't fancy playing sardines so they'll catch the Northern stopper or the Avanti. If it's going the other way, there's obviously less choice, but it's nice to be forwarned that you're going to be squashed into someone else's armpit for the next couple of hours.

 

[RUK]

Train loading information was put onto TOC web-sites during the COVID-19 pandemic so that people could choose to travel on less busy trains if they wanted to. I have a relative undergoing cancer treatment, which will suppress their immune system, so it’s useful for me to know which services will be less busy, for me to choose to travel on them if possible, to reduce the risk of catching something and passing it on to them when I travel to visit them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Train loading information was put onto TOC web-sites during the COVID-19 pandemic so that people could choose to travel on less busy trains if they wanted to. I have a relative undergoing cancer treatment, which will suppress their immune system, so it’s useful for me to know which services will be less busy, for me to choose to travel on them if possible, to reduce the risk of catching something and passing it on to them when I travel to visit them.

Increasingly trains have passenger counting/weighing systems which means this information could be real-time and correct (and be shown in planners based on what's usually the case for that train). This really would be genuinely useful.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Train loading information was put onto TOC web-sites during the COVID-19 pandemic so that people could choose to travel on less busy trains if they wanted to. I have a relative undergoing cancer treatment, which will suppress their immune system, so it’s useful for me to know which services will be less busy, for me to choose to travel on them if possible, to reduce the risk of catching something and passing it on to them when I travel to visit them.

Yes I am more aware of the downsides of being in a crowded place since Covid. I went up to London a few weeks ago coming back very crowded. That evening slight sore throat, lost my voice for two days and am only just clear of it. Not really bad but definitely would want to avoid more vulnerable people afterwards.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I was both bemused and amused at Chesterfield station this afternoon to see that the 1611 St Pancras to Sheffield train was "reported as being busy" but the preceding 1605 Penzance to Edinburgh wasn't, despite being only a 5 car Voyager!

So maybe this message only applies to EMR trains?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I was both bemused and amused at Chesterfield station this afternoon to see that the 1611 St Pancras to Sheffield train was "reported as being busy" but the preceding 1605 Penzance to Edinburgh wasn't, despite being only a 5 car Voyager!

So maybe this message only applies to EMR trains?

Oh of course. We cannot have consistency.

It is why my approach would be if the train is there get on it. Well that is unless there are plentyfull alternatives like at East Croydon.

 

[AM9]

So the railways really ought to be better able to afford to run the extra trains to cater for the smother demand.

Although the smother demand might not be smooth enough ?.

If you mean smoother demand, then the whole railway should be scaled for that meaning less staff, less track more than twin track and trains fewer platforms. There's no benefit in just absorbing all those costs that exist now or even spreading the resources when they aren't really justified.

 

[Krokodil]

So the railways really ought to be better able to afford to run the extra trains to cater for the smother demand.

In theory once everything settles down the NSE operators will have lost the peak extras (and the rolling stock that went with it) and will be able to run a more efficient operation. Elsewhere trains are busy throughout the day, not just in the peaks.

Increasingly trains have passenger counting/weighing systems which means this information could be real-time and correct

If only the systems were reliable.

 

[sheff1]

The background to how this message appears is important to understanding why this is.

It is displayed when the guard has informed the Control that the service is full and standing. It isn't then removed again unless the guard reports that the train is no longer full and standing.

Consequently if the train is reported as full and standing leaving Ely, but a large percentage get off the train at Peterborough as they do, unless the Control are told otherwise the "very busy" message will be shown for the rest of the journey even if the train isn't.

It is quite easy to overlook when you're busy and particularly when there is a crew change en route.

Thanks for that explanation which confirms that my decision to ignore such messsges is a good one. More importantly though, if the message has a good chance of being incorrect and likely to mislead people it is, in my view, better not used at all as demonstrated here:

Last year we were waiting at Leicester for an early evening EMR train to Sheffield which was being flagged as a full 5 car. It turned up with two units, the front almost empty which we boarded. The refreshment trolley got on that and we got welcome coffees.

At Sheffield an unrefreshed hoard got off the crowded rear unit including a football team and supporters.

Good intentions but not too helpful outcomes.

and again with my experience at Leeds the other evening, albeit with an incorrect announcement (might have been on the screens as well, I had no need to check):

I was heading for the Northern semi-fast to Sheffield (due to depart 2 mins before the XC Edinburgh - Plymouth service but arriving around 15 mins later in Sheffield) on the basis that I would far more likely get a seat on that. However as I reached the overbridge an announcement for the XC advised passengers for stations beyond Bristol to Plymouth to board the front 5 coaches as the rear coaches would be detached at Bristol - ah good, at least 9 coaches then with an almost certain seat if I headed to the far end of the platform, which I did.

The train arrived and I was surprised to see the front carriage already full and standing and a crowd heading up the platform towards me. The surprise disappeared when I realised the train was only 5 coaches and the mythical second set was just that (it had presumably been only one set from Edinburgh and definitely from Newcastle, so plenty of time to get the announcement correct). By then it was too late to retrace my steps and get over to 17B in time for the Northern train I had been aiming for originally and not wishing to travel on the grossly overcrowded XC I waited for the next Northern semi-fast.

Lesson learned, I will be treating verbal as well as displayed messages linked to train capacity with a pinch of salt in future.

 

[Killingworth]

Thanks for that explanation which confirms that my decision to ignore such messsges is a good one. More importantly though, if the message has a good chance of being incorrect and likely to mislead people it is, in my view, better not used at all as demonstrated here:

and again with my experience at Leeds the other evening, albeit with an incorrect announcement (might have been on the screens as well, I had no need to check):

I was heading for the Northern semi-fast to Sheffield (due to depart 2 mins before the XC Edinburgh - Plymouth service but arriving around 15 mins later in Sheffield) on the basis that I would far more likely get a seat on that. However as I reached the overbridge an announcement for the XC advised passengers for stations beyond Bristol to Plymouth to board the front 5 coaches as the rear coaches would be detached at Bristol - ah good, at least 9 coaches then with an almost certain seat if I headed to the far end of the platform, which I did.

The train arrived and I was surprised to see the front carriage already full and standing and a crowd heading up the platform towards me. The surprise disappeared when I realised the train was only 5 coaches and the mythical second set was just that (it had presumably been only one set from Edinburgh and definitely from Newcastle, so plenty of time to get the announcement correct). By then it was too late to retrace my steps and get over to 17B in time for the Northern train I had been aiming for originally and not wishing to travel on the grossly overcrowded XC I waited for the next Northern semi-fast.

Lesson learned, I will be treating verbal as well as displayed messages linked to train capacity with a pinch of salt in future.

XC formations are regularly announced incorrectly long after the systems could have been updated. In the other direction I saw a 9 car announced at Alnmouth for Edinburgh but actually 5. Dont expect the train to come as shown either. First is as likely to be at the back as the front.

 

[sprinterguy]

Some of the comments here do suggest rail enthusiasts who are not in line with what most people would probably want, which is to get to where they are going as soon as possible, busy train or not.

Beer enthusiast first here, rail enthusiast second, thank you.

I'm very happy, in all my approaches to life, to not be like "most people". Just watching most people board trains at places like Birmingham New Street, they seem to make some quite horrible decisions. Not that I'm complaining, mind you: When 300 people have just piled into the front 4 carriages of a 9-car Voyager formation, I get to lounge about with a pair of seats to myself in a half empty carriage at the back of the 5-car set on the rear.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Beer enthusiast first here, rail enthusiast second, thank you.

I'm very happy, in all my approaches to life, to not be like "most people". Just watching "most people" board trains at places like Birmingham New Street, they seem to make some quite horrible decisions. Not that I'm complaining, mind you: When 300 people have just piled into the front 4 carriages of a 9-car Voyager formation, I get to lounge about with a pair of seats to myself in a half empty carriage at the back of the 5-car set on the rear.

Same on the tube. So few move along the platform. Even to the point where a friend refused to be told what to do by the announcements. After we failed to get on I pointed out the empty platform further down. Irony is that the exit at his destination is most of the way down the platform so he was going to walk it one way or another.

So no chance of people being tempted by an alternative they cannot see !.

 

[trainophile]

Beer enthusiast first here, rail enthusiast second, thank you.

I'm very happy, in all my approaches to life, to not be like "most people". Just watching "most people" board trains at places like Birmingham New Street, they seem to make some quite horrible decisions. Not that I'm complaining, mind you: When 300 people have just piled into the front 4 carriages of a 9-car Voyager formation, I get to lounge about with a pair of seats to myself in a half empty carriage at the back of the 5-car set on the rear.

The trouble with New Street is with the platforms having an A end and a B end with different services from each on the same platform number at nearly the same time, coupled with the warnings about short platforms at subsequent stations so you have to be in the right part of the train, and also there is no consistency on which platform your train will be on, that it's no wonder people don't know where to wait.

 

[WAB]

The trouble with New Street is with the platforms having an A end and a B end with different services from each on the same platform number at nearly the same time, coupled with the warnings about short platforms at subsequent stations so you have to be in the right part of the train, and also there is no consistency on which platform your train will be on, that it's no wonder people don't know where to wait.

And the good chance that there won't actually be a second unit...

 

[sprinterguy]

The trouble with New Street is with the platforms having an A end and a B end with different services from each on the same platform number at nearly the same time, coupled with the warnings about short platforms at subsequent stations so you have to be in the right part of the train, and also there is no consistency on which platform your train will be on, that it's no wonder people don't know where to wait.

New Street certainly does have some navigational issues for the occasional user.

 

[mangyiscute]

I see this sometimes at Reading for London services - then it's very useful since the next one is usually maximum 10 minutes behind so plenty of people will happily wait if it means getting a seat - for me it just means "go wait by first class and stand in that vestibule since it'll be the quietest"

 

[trainophile]

I see this sometimes at Reading for London services - then it's very useful since the next one is usually maximum 10 minutes behind so plenty of people will happily wait if it means getting a seat - for me it just means "go wait by first class and stand in that vestibule since it'll be the quietest"

I seem to remember that when the WCML was Virgin there was a rule that standing in the First Class vestibules wasn't allowed, unless you have a First Class ticket of course. I don't know what Avanti's policy is on this, their trains don't seem quite so busy that it would be necessary these days.

 

[LittleRedTrain]

And the good chance that there won't actually be a second unit...

Or that RTT will tell you there's a second unit, and you position yourself in the perfect location to board it, only to find it locked out of use due to a lack of train crew... forcing you to run down the platform and join the back of the scrum to board the front unit!

(Maybe just a bit of bitter experience here!)

 

[Krokodil]

I seem to remember that when the WCML was Virgin there was a rule that standing in the First Class vestibules wasn't allowed, unless you have a First Class ticket of course. I don't know what Avanti's policy is on this, their trains don't seem quite so busy that it would be necessary these days.

Back before free WiFi was universal some companies used to prohibit loitering in those vestibules to stop people freeloading on the First Class WiFi.