Services to Northampton

[Bletchleyite]

And "cattle class" is a meaningless tabloid cliche.

And ignores that 350s are pretty comfortable in the great scheme of things. They're hardly cattle wagons, and the /2s are going so they'll all be 2+2 in time.

 

[LLivery]

Northampton's offer is not brilliant, but it's not terrible. 2tph to London and Birmingham, both reached in ~1 hour is decent. Looking at the WCML, it's difficult to see how it could be better; although no longer having the Trent Valley service I think is a shame. The county has suffered with closing routes and the county (particularly North Northants) also has the worst social mobility in England. Connectivity helps 'level up'. But I'd say the Nene Valley and Northampton to Market Harborough routes closing has resulted in Northampton having a worse service than it should and there's little that can be done about this without spending £££.

And as I always maintain, the Wellingborough offering is now rubbish, especially considering, as rightly said, the population growth that has and is happening, let alone the railheading role it should be playing for surrounding towns.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And as I always maintain, the Wellingborough offering is now rubbish, especially considering, as rightly said, the population growth that has and is happening, let alone the railheading role it should be playing for surrounding towns.

The prices at Market Ketteringborough are outrageous due to being from the IC sector, but I don't see why two Desiros an hour is any less suitable for that than Northampton, it seems a reasonable service at both to be honest.

 

[cle]

The issue is that it feels a bit too far from a TTW area from both cities. It's doable, and is done - but you won't get the volumes required to augment rail service as much. And if companies mandate 3-5 days again in London, you'll see that dwindle. And thus people in Northampton will instead take local jobs, or maybe those in Milton Keynes - ie lower paying / lower mobility - and the cycle renews.

After HS2, if a 125mph capable service was doing 3tph London - MKC - Northampton, with about a 50m journey time - that would be a pretty good service. Throw in some locals / continuations to Birmingham, and at a push the odd service to the TV, or down to Oxford - that's about as good as it will likely get, given where it is on the network.

 

[Transilien]

After HS2, if a 125mph capable service was doing 3tph London - MKC - Northampton, with about a 50m journey time - that would be a pretty good service. Throw in some locals / continuations to Birmingham, and at a push the odd service to the TV, or down to Oxford - that's about as good as it will likely get, given where it is on the network

I’m pretty sure as a part of the initial IET plan they were going to run on Northampton services. I’m not sure though as non-tilting units they were ever going to go at 125mph.

 

[LLivery]

I think Northampton was mentioned for an Intercity service post HS2 opening

The prices at Market Ketteringborough are outrageous due to being from the IC sector, but I don't see why two Desiros an hour is any less suitable for that than Northampton, it seems a reasonable service at both to be honest.

For me it's Wellingborough's access north rather than south, not the Desiros themselves. To have always had connections to Leicester and Nottingham; the two major cities in the East Midlands, to now having just Kettering and Corby is poor. Three trains to access Birmingham and Peterborough by rail is rubbish. Likewise Bedford. I would just drive.

 

[Energy]

I’m pretty sure as a part of the initial IET plan they were going to run on Northampton services. I’m not sure though as non-tilting units they were ever going to go at 125mph.

Yes it was London - Manchester via Northampton & Stoke and would have diagrammed 22 half sets out of a fleet of probably ~30. It doesn't really make sense to me.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Well it says more about Lichfield City to Lichfield TV on the current timetable actually. It’s recommending rather than go to Trent Valley and then getting one to Rugby and then changing there for Northampton, you should go via New Street.

Arrivals at LTV on Cross City are at xx17 and xx47

LNR from LTV towards Rugby are at xx49

There's also the factor that when there's late running WMR happily turn back at City - the last time I travelled, that happened (new train delayed at New Street while fitter switched it off and on again) so I would have had an even longer wait at T.V.

 

[Eloise]

I've been travelling to Lichfield (City) from Northampton about once a month recently. The NRES itinerary gives via New St., presumably the quicker route.
I accept it's not a popular destination from here but I expect most travellers, if they didn't have the benefit of a free pass, would choose to drive - it's pretty much a straight line via M1 M6 M42 A38, and the rail journey is tedious because of the number of station calls - 20!

It is sophistry, though, to say that because there is (unsurprisingly) little use of a particular service when that service is poor there would be the same demand if it was improved.

I still fail to see the demand massively picking up between the Trent Valley and Northampton. I get you are suppressing some demand by not offering a direct service but I don't see offering one will boost patronage on that flow. 80/20 rule and I don't think you are anywhere near 20 with or without a direct service. Excellent use of the word sophistry though.

Personally I'm still awaiting the direct service from Northampton - Wherever I Want To Go.

 

[Merle Haggard]

I still fail to see the demand massively picking up between the Trent Valley and Northampton. I get you are suppressing some demand by not offering a direct service but I don't see offering one will boost patronage on that flow. 80/20 rule and I don't think you are anywhere near 20 with or without a direct service. Excellent use of the word sophistry though.

Personally I'm still awaiting the direct service from Northampton - Wherever I Want To Go.

I wasn't commenting on the demand between Northampton and Lichfield but trying to make two separate points;

Pointing out that NRES routes Northampton - Lichfield City via Birmingham, not the Trent Valley - in response to earlier posts. The reasons that I chose to make that particular journey by rail are unique to me (as I implied ... ) and I would be surprised if any 'normal' ever did it!

Making the point that, in general, to say that future demand for a service cannot be deduced from demand when there's a poor service at the moment. I think I have used the analogy already, but it explains what I'm trying to say; 'why build a bridge across the river? - no-one swims across!'.

 

[stevieinselby]

Lots of similarly sized locations have no intercity services, all across London & SE.

Not really. Northampton is a big town, well over 200k population. There are very few towns or cities of that size that don't have an intercity service of some sort, or at the very least a high frequency service (Luton is a similar size and has 8tph towards London).

The biggest difference is that most of those other places have multiple lines radiating out – Bradford and Brighton might not have much in the way of intercity, but they do have suburban and regional lines heading in all directions. I've often felt that a cross-county line from Daventry through Northampton and Wellingborough to Rushden would have a big impact in terms of local connections – it's a poor show that the 2nd, 3rd and 4th biggest towns in the county have no rail connection to the county town even they do have a decent enough service in other respects. But with much of the route needing to be a new alignment, there's no way it would be economic to build it in the current climate.

and doing so is turgid in the extreme. Northampton doesn't need to be on the intercity network, especially if it slows down services from the more significant Milton Keynes!

Why is Milton Keynes "more significant"? Northampton's population is 40k more than Milton Keynes ... the only reason Milton Keynes has a higher ridership is because it has a much better service by dint of being on the main line.

Might be worth pointing out that the increase in services between Northampton& Birmingham from 1 mph to 2

I knew they were slow, but I didn't realise they were that slow

I think Northampton was mentioned for an Intercity service post HS2 opening

Yes, there were plans for intercity services running from Northampton to Manchester, although I think that was still running via Birmingham so wouldn't be an especially fast journey. Notably, the service was going to start/terminate at Northampton, so there was no planned increase in service between Northampton and London, which struck me as a slightly odd omission.

 

[A S Leib]

it's a poor show that the 2nd, 3rd and 4th biggest towns in the county have no rail connection to the county town even they do have a decent enough service in other respects

Not that that's unique to Northamptonshire; Hertford has no rail connection to St. Albans, Watford or Hemel Hempstead (and Stevenage doesn't have one to Watford, if going by largest town), Milton Keynes's connection to Aylesbury was cancelled, Rugby and Nuneaton don't have services to Warwick, Durham – Hartlepool's non-existent, Lancaster to most of Lancashire needs a change at Preston...

 

[Merle Haggard]

I knew they were slow, but I didn't realise they were that slow

Sorry, I have a clever new Apple laptop; it believes, wrongly, that I'm constantly making typos. I can't always spot its 'corrections', a lot of effort just to look for the ones that convert my positive comments into slanderous allegations...

Why is Milton Keynes "more significant"? Northampton's population is 40k more than Milton Keynes ... the only reason Milton Keynes has a higher ridership is because it has a much better service by dint of being on the main line.

Indeed; and there is a confusion between the population of the new town itself and of the unitary authority. When the northern half of Buckinghammshire became a unitary authority it was named 'Milton Keynes (-shire)' and it is often the population of this that's quoted, not the new town alone. On a similar basis, the population of unitary West Northamptonshire, not the town alone, should be quoted, particularly as the station is the railhead for all of that area.

It's interesting that there's so much commuting to London from Milton Keynes. Other new towns have been deliberately planned to make them self sufficient in the sense of providing local employment for the residents. A good example is Basildon, which was, as a matter of policy, not provided (until much later) with a railway station to prevent it becoming just a dormitory town for London commuters.

 

[DarloRich]

Why is Milton Keynes "more significant"? Northampton's population is 40k more than Milton Keynes ... the only reason Milton Keynes has a higher ridership is because it has a much better service by dint of being on the main line.

That isn't correct. I don't think you know the area.

 

[A S Leib]

Milton Keynes has a very high percentage of people who live within its boundaries who also work in Milton Keynes (83%). However, of all people who work in Milton Keynes 40% commute in from outside.

(I think from ~2010) Would it be fair to say that Milton Keynes has a lot more inbound commuting than most* other southeastern towns, including Northampton?

*I think Reading had more inbound than outbound commuters pre-pandemic; not sure if Oxford or Cambridge are / were the same.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's interesting that there's so much commuting to London from Milton Keynes. Other new towns have been deliberately planned to make them self sufficient in the sense of providing local employment for the residents.

Which was an abject failure. MK's significant in and outbound commuting is one key way in which it was different to some of the other New Towns. It in part led to its unrivalled success.

I believe there was more inbound than out, by the way.

 

[Magdalia]

It's interesting that there's so much commuting to London from Milton Keynes. Other new towns have been deliberately planned to make them self sufficient in the sense of providing local employment for the residents. A good example is Basildon, which was, as a matter of policy, not provided (until much later) with a railway station to prevent it becoming just a dormitory town for London commuters.

New towns started with local employment, particularly in light industry. What changed was the economy, especially in the 1980s. Manufacturing declined, and commuting grew on the back of rapid growth in financial services, particularly in the City of London.

Many new towns pivoted from local manufacturing employment to London commuting: in this part of the world Stevenage and Harlow are good examples.

Northampton is a big town, well over 200k population. There are very few towns or cities of that size that don't have an intercity service of some sort, or at the very least a high frequency service (Luton is a similar size and has 8tph towards London).

Northampton is more than twice as far from London as Luton.

I've often felt that a cross-county line from Daventry through Northampton and Wellingborough to Rushden would have a big impact in terms of local connections – it's a poor show that the 2nd, 3rd and 4th biggest towns in the county have no rail connection to the county town even they do have a decent enough service in other respects.

Northamptonshire has been abolished. There are now two unitaries: none of Wellingborough, Rushden or Kettering are in the same local authority as Northampton.

There was a cross country line from Northampton to Wellingborough, with trains going on to Kettering or Peterborough. It closed 60 years ago.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Which was an abject failure. MK's significant in and outbound commuting is one key way in which it was different to some of the other New Towns. It in part led to its unrivalled success.

I believe there was more inbound than out, by the way.

I found somewhere in DfT stats (and I can't find it again) that Milton Keynes - Euston passenger numbers were about no 10 in all point to point flows. I took it that, as far as commuting goes, it's much more likely to be to London rather than from, and that was the basis of my comment..

I wonder if inbound commuting has been affected by W.F.H.. I accept that those with an agenda claim that this will mean the end of commuting (and I don't subscribe to that) but a change in travel levels to Milton Keynes would be a good indicator. I guess the inward commuting would be almost entirely salaried office workers - the servicing-offices staff would probably live locally, unlike in London, where office reductions also result in office servicing and even coffee bar staff not being needed and not travelling - so would give a good idea of the basic effect, if indeed there is any. Similarly with customers to the shopping centre - with the increase of shopping on line - shown by change in weekend travel (if that's isolated).

Northamptonshire has been abolished. There are now two unitaries: none of Wellingborough, Rushden or Kettering are in the same local authority as Northampton.

Unitary councils are created when a county is considered too large in population for local authority administration on its own, it's happened to many counties.
By similar logic, Lancashire and Yorkshire have been 'abolished' but I would be wary about suggesting that to their loyal inhabitants ...
It's just a civil service construct.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if inbound commuting has been affected by W.F.H.. I accept that those with an agenda claim that this will mean the end of commuting (and I don't subscribe to that) but a change in travel levels to Milton Keynes would be a good indicator. I guess the inward commuting would be almost entirely salaried office workers - the servicing-offices staff would probably live locally, unlike in London, where office reductions also result in office servicing and even coffee bar staff not being needed and not travelling - so would give a good idea of the basic effect, if indeed there is any. Similarly with customers to the shopping centre - with the increase of shopping on line - shown by change in weekend travel (if that's isolated).

I seem to recall far more of the inbound is by car, and is in a fairly wide range of jobs.

 

[A S Leib]

I found somewhere in DfT stats (and I can't find it again) that Milton Keynes - Euston passenger numbers were about no 10 in all point to point flows. I took it that, as far as commuting goes, it's much more likely to be to London rather than from, and that was the basis of my comment..

22nd, with 1.44 mn journeys per year. Euston <> Manchester Piccadilly's 21st and Euston <> Watford Junction's 23rd (but has the Met as a cheaper / sometimes more convenient alternative). 17 of the 21 busier flows are entirely within Greater London, with the exceptions being London Liverpool Street / Victoria / Paddington / Euston to Stansted, Gatwick, Reading and Manchester.

 

[JW4]

I found somewhere in DfT stats (and I can't find it again) that Milton Keynes - Euston passenger numbers were about no 10 in all point to point flows. I took it that, as far as commuting goes, it's much more likely to be to London rather than from, and that was the basis of my comment..

Passenger flows from London Euston 2022/23

Manchester Piccadilly	North West	MANCHESTER BR	1,457,444
Milton Keynes Central	South East		1,440,587
Watford Junction	East of England		1,363,798
Birmingham New Street	West Midlands	BIRMINGHAM BR	1,265,202
Liverpool Lime Street	North West	LIVERPOOL BR	710,225
Northampton	East Midlands		559,947
Coventry	West Midlands		540,693
Hemel Hempstead	East of England		438,335
Leighton Buzzard	East of England		401,620
Berkhamsted	East of England		373,795
Rugby	West Midlands		346,440
Harrow and Wealdstone	London		338,775
Crewe	North West		321,655
Wolverton			60,373

 

[cle]

I recall seeing that Queens Park was one of the highest once? Surely Wolverhampton is up there too?

 

[A S Leib]

I recall seeing that Queens Park was one of the highest once? Surely Wolverhampton is up there too?

Wolverhampton's 21st for Euston, between Tring and Stafford, with 170,000 recorded journeys per year. Queens Park is 28th with 135,000; below Chester and above Kings Langley.

 

[Markuk]

Of course the missed opportunity most recently is the failure to insist the developers of the Northampton Gateway rail freight terminal which is sandwiched between J15 of the M1 and the Birdcage at Roade include a station with platforms on the Weedon lines and the loop. It could've been in the 'V' where the two lines diverge and accessible directly from the M1 at J15 by the Roade Bypass that the developers also had to build. With easy access from the M1 and from all of this part of Northamptonshire, services on the loop line and on the old line stopping there, it could've saved the thousands of road-miles driven to MK to access the station by half of the Northampton conurbation, served the villages between Northampton and MK, and provided a Parkway station to London for Northants, South Leicestershire and parts of Warwickshire.

 

[stevieinselby]

Not that that's unique to Northamptonshire; Hertford has no rail connection to St. Albans, Watford or Hemel Hempstead (and Stevenage doesn't have one to Watford, if going by largest town), Milton Keynes's connection to Aylesbury was cancelled, Rugby and Nuneaton don't have services to Warwick, Durham – Hartlepool's non-existent, Lancaster to most of Lancashire needs a change at Preston...

A key difference in a lot of those cases is that the county town is far less significant.

In Northamptonshire, Northampton is the biggest town by a long way – bigger than the next 5 towns put together, and is the main regional centre that the other towns look to.
In Co Durham, the biggest 3 towns are all within 10k of each other, and Durham itself is 4th.
In Hertfordshire, the biggest 4 towns are all of a similar order of magnitude, and Hertford itself is the 14th biggest.
In Buckinghamshire, there is no central gravity – Milton Keynes is in the historic county but has little or no pull on the the southern end of the county which looks south to the Thames Valley.

Indeed; and there is a confusion between the population of the new town itself and of the unitary authority. When the northern half of Buckinghammshire became a unitary authority it was named 'Milton Keynes (-shire)' and it is often the population of this that's quoted, not the new town alone. On a similar basis, the population of unitary West Northamptonshire, not the town alone, should be quoted, particularly as the station is the railhead for all of that area.

Why is the local authority area a more appropriate measure than the urban area? Local authority boundaries mean nothing in terms of where people catch their trains from or to. Urban areas are far more relevant from that point of view. No-one in Earls Barton is going to say "I can't catch a train from Northampton since the county was split in two", just as no-one in Olney is going to say "I can only catch a train from Milton Keynes Central because my council tax goes to Milton Keynes City Council".

That isn't correct. I don't think you know the area.

Go on then, enlighten me. Why is Milton Keynes a busier station than the one serving the bigger town of Northampton, if not for the fact that its more convenient location on the WCML means it gets a vastly better service?

 

[cle]

It is a different type of place. Planned, not post-industrial decline... with modern buildings for companies to occupy - and an economy geared on services. Yes the route on the WCML helps a lot - as does being MUCH closer to London by train, and with a lot of cheaper, newer housing stock.

Admittedly growth-wise they are similar, and housing estate-wise, but the centre is the main differentiator. Rail is a huge part, but it also doesn't carry the baggage of many older places who've struggled to modernize, it was built with intent.

Wolverhampton's 21st for Euston, between Tring and Stafford, with 170,000 recorded journeys per year. Queens Park is 28th with 135,000; below Chester and above Kings Langley.

I am sure I saw about 500k once. Likely due to being named as a station on tickets (very few people these days), vs Oyster / Overground changes and discrepancies.

 

[A S Leib]

Go on then, enlighten me. Why is Milton Keynes a busier station than the one serving the bigger town of Northampton, if not for the fact that its more convenient location on the WCML means it gets a vastly better service?

Passenger numbers and service levels aren't necessarily the same; Durham's busier than Darlington despite lacking the Saltburn – Bishop Auckland services and one of the London – Edinburgh ones (although in that case it's almost entirely down to Newcastle. There's a difference of ~200,000 passengers per year, and Durham has 520,000 journeys to / from Newcastle against Darlington's 199,000).

 

[A0]

A key difference in a lot of those cases is that the county town is far less significant.

In Northamptonshire, Northampton is the biggest town by a long way – bigger than the next 5 towns put together, and is the main regional centre that the other towns look to.

That's irrelevant - I've lived in Northants for 2 decades. People in Kettering or Corby really aren't bothered by what goes on in Northampton or vice versa. Even less so now they are covered by separate councils.

There is some demand to travel between Northampton & Wellingborough and Northampton - Kettering, but nowhere near enough to even begin to justify a new rail link. The "old" Northampton - Wellingborough line was lightly used and went nowhere near places like Earls Barton - the bus serves all of these without issue. Northampton - Kettering never had a direct line and there is genuinely no practical way to build one.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Of course the missed opportunity most recently is the failure to insist the developers of the Northampton Gateway rail freight terminal which is sandwiched between J15 of the M1 and the Birdcage at Roade include a station with platforms on the Weedon lines and the loop. It could've been in the 'V' where the two lines diverge and accessible directly from the M1 at J15 by the Roade Bypass that the developers also had to build. With easy access from the M1 and from all of this part of Northamptonshire, services on the loop line and on the old line stopping there, it could've saved the thousands of road-miles driven to MK to access the station by half of the Northampton conurbation, served the villages between Northampton and MK, and provided a Parkway station to London for Northants, South Leicestershire and parts of Warwickshire.

A Northampton Parkway type station was proposed at Blisworth but was shelved. The reason given, by the manager who made that decision, was obtuse i.m.o.; it was that, if the Old Line was closed for any reason (and services diverted via Northampton!) passengers would be stranded because they couldn't reach their cars on their return journey.

There was also a plan for an additional station exactly where the rail freight terminal is being built ('Gordon's Farm'), in connection with a proposed massive housing development around Milton Malsor - Blisworth - Gayton but this seems also to have been abandoned.

Passenger flows from London Euston 2022/23

Manchester Piccadilly	North West	MANCHESTER BR	1,457,444
Milton Keynes Central	South East		1,440,587
Watford Junction	East of England		1,363,798
Birmingham New Street	West Midlands	BIRMINGHAM BR	1,265,202
Liverpool Lime Street	North West	LIVERPOOL BR	710,225
Northampton	East Midlands		559,947
Coventry	West Midlands		540,693
Hemel Hempstead	East of England		438,335
Leighton Buzzard	East of England		401,620
Berkhamsted	East of England		373,795
Rugby	West Midlands		346,440
Harrow and Wealdstone	London		338,775
Crewe	North West		321,655
Wolverton			60,373

Thank you.
I'm very surprised by the size of Northampton's figures compared to, for example, Coventry - where an hourly non - stop train does the journey in about the same time as one from Northampton. Same applies to Rugby, with its fast Avanti services, I thought that Rugby was a commuting hotspot.

I wonder if split tickets journeys are excluded from the splitting point (and how); Avanti seemed to have had a problem with splitting at Rugby and made some up morning peak trains pick-up only and down evening ones set-down only allegedly to stop splitting at Rugby.

 

[The Planner]

Of course the missed opportunity most recently is the failure to insist the developers of the Northampton Gateway rail freight terminal which is sandwiched between J15 of the M1 and the Birdcage at Roade include a station with platforms on the Weedon lines and the loop. It could've been in the 'V' where the two lines diverge and accessible directly from the M1 at J15 by the Roade Bypass that the developers also had to build. With easy access from the M1 and from all of this part of Northamptonshire, services on the loop line and on the old line stopping there, it could've saved the thousands of road-miles driven to MK to access the station by half of the Northampton conurbation, served the villages between Northampton and MK, and provided a Parkway station to London for Northants, South Leicestershire and parts of Warwickshire.

They would have walked away.