Severn Valley Railway to suspend photographic charters

[DustyBin]

Is the question what motivates people to visit heritage railways or what motivates enthusiasts to visit heritage railways? They aren't the same thing nor do they bring in the same amount of money.

That's a valid question and I wouldn't dispute the underlying point. However, it's generally enthusiasts who volunteer at heritage railways and keep them running, that's what I was getting at. If you remove the enjoyment you risk depending on paid employees which isn't a situation any heritage railway wants to be in. I'll reiterate, I'm not suggesting that's the stage we're at now, simply that if you remove the enjoyment you risk removing the incentive to get involved for many people.

 

[DarloRich]

Although the question of what motivates people/enthusiasts to volunteer at a heritage railway is very important because the overwhelming majority of heritage railways would not survive if they required a much higher proportion of salaried staff.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, if the risk is too high you don't run the trains.

That's a valid question and I wouldn't dispute the underlying point. However, it's generally enthusiasts who volunteer at heritage railways and keep them running, that's what I was getting at. If you remove the enjoyment you risk depending on paid employees which isn't a situation any heritage railway wants to be in. I'll reiterate, I'm not suggesting that's the stage we're at now, simply that if you remove the enjoyment you risk removing the incentive to get involved for many people.

Fair point - so what is the enjoyment in volunteering? Does stopping photo charters and line side photography access impact on that - genuine question. i don't know.

 

[zwk500]

Fair point - so what is the enjoyment in volunteering? Does stopping photo charters and line side photography access impact on that - genuine question. i don't know.

I don't know myself, but I suspect that like a lot of railway interests - bashing, modelling, etc. - each person will have their own individual interests and reasons for doing it. Some will want photos, but others won't be bothered at all.

 

[yorkie]

I don't know myself, but I suspect that like a lot of railway interests - bashing, modelling, etc. - each person will have their own individual interests and reasons for doing it. Some will want photos, but others won't be bothered at all.

Exactly.

The idea that people who visit and/or work on preserved railways are not 'enthusiasts' is absurd. In reality most are what may be termed 'casual enthusiasts'; fairly ordinary people who have a range of different interests, of which this is one.

Most enthusiasts are of the casual variety and are not in any way spotters or anything like that, in the same way that most people with an interest in football do not travel hundreds of miles every other week either.

I also find that when people dismiss numerous unidentified posts as 'wibble' this broadly translates as 'there is a lot of stuff here I disagree with, but I don't have a particularly strong argument myself nor do I want to put the effort into making a coherent argument'.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Fair point - so what is the enjoyment in volunteering? Does stopping photo charters and line side photography access impact on that - genuine question. i don't know.

Doesn't affect my enjoyment but for some it will alot. These charters often recreate old trains or scenes not often seen. Often quote historically accurate too and therefore volunteers almost think of them as a treat.

Running these sorts of things does help with morale.

However, heritage railway photographers I find to be a nightmare for wandering about where they want with ladders in dodgy places etc. and so the risks are very high so I am not surprised this is the view taken by the SVR.

Like you say, is the effort to mitigate the risk worth the income, unfortunately in a black and white decision, probably not.

 

[zwk500]

However, heritage railway photographers I find to be a nightmare for wandering about where they want with ladders in dodgy places etc. and so the risks are very high so I am not surprised this is the view taken by the SVR.

Like you say, is the effort to mitigate the risk worth the income, unfortunately in a black and white decision, probably not.

I think this point also links to the more general problem the SVR's been having with casual trespass. If the photo charters are thought to provoke/encourage unofficial and unqualified access to the lineside it may be viewed that the risk is just too high.

 

[37424]

Are charter trains accompanied by photographers hurrying by car from one spot up a narrow lane to another, trying to get the best views?

The answer to that is yes if the motive power is interesting

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think this point also links to the more general problem the SVR's been having with casual trespass. If the photo charters are thought to provoke/encourage unofficial and unqualified access to the lineside it may be viewed that the risk is just too high.

As are many heritage railways! Many of our trespass routes are forged by photographers.

 

[pdeaves]

Thinking out loud (sort of) - could heritage railways pose a special train somewhere and have a dedicated lineside platform for the camera-toting enthusiasts that paid for it? Such platform would be accessible from the outside, a controlled place. Maybe even 'should heritage railways ... <etc.>?'. From what I've seen (never actually having had any involvement with a photographic charter), everyone wants pretty much the same view anyway so providing a set number of controlled environments could be appropriate. Of course, the £ income may not make this worthwhile anyway!

 

[zwk500]

Thinking out loud (sort of) - could heritage railways pose a special train somewhere and have a dedicated lineside platform for the camera-toting enthusiasts that paid for it? Such platform would be accessible from the outside, a controlled place. Maybe even 'should heritage railways ... <etc.>?'. From what I've seen (never actually having had any involvement with a photographic charter), everyone wants pretty much the same view anyway so providing a set number of controlled environments could be appropriate. Of course, the £ income may not make this worthwhile anyway!

There's nothing except economics preventing them from having a 'photographer's halt' and selling platform tickets to it.

 

[paul1609]

Fair point - so what is the enjoyment in volunteering? Does stopping photo charters and line side photography access impact on that - genuine question. i don't know.

Ive been a fireman, guard, minder and ladder operator on both enthusiast and commercial filming jobs. My priority has always been that the evolutions be carried out safely but also that people have a good time so they want to come back, however the whole filming thing in in my case over many years has been a very marginal part of the whole volunteering thing. I dont think it would make any difference to my overall "job" satisfaction tbh.

 

[Sean Emmett]

All you need for dining trains is a single track with a station at one end and a run-round at the other. That would leave surplus land at the site of each intermediate station - no need for platforms or sidings - and sell off the land for redevelopment. That would also be profitable - but stupid. Where do you draw the line?

That would indeed turn it into a theme park ride - and VATable, as opposed to public transport, exempt.

IIRC when the Welsh Highland extened through the Aberglaslyn Pass there was temporary halt at the Hafod y Llyn run-round, acccesible on foot, for this very reason.

Having done some pway work on WHR / Ffesty a bonus was being able to take some photos in difficult to access locations. But that of course meant being passed out as track safe, etc.

As for Severn Valley, I was on a through Vintage Trains charter which crossed over from Network Rail then sat in Kidderminster loop for 45 mins because a driver experience charter was also out. It meant a mad scramble for pax to be fed and watered in half an hour. I did wonder how much they lost in takings (and goodwill) compared to what they made from the driver experience run.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

As for Severn Valley, I was on a through Vintage Trains charter which crossed over from Network Rail then sat in Kidderminster loop for 45 mins because a driver experience charter was also out. It meant a mad scramble for pax to be fed and watered in half an hour. I did wonder how much they lost in takings (and goodwill) compared to what they made from the driver experience run.

I’m curious - was the charter on time when it arrived at Kidderminster? Or was the SVR service running late. Knowing how carefully stuff is planned that sounds like a case of regulation rather than incompetence.

 

[The Bear]

We’ve had two recent threads on the subject of lineside passes being discontinued. Now the SVR has gone one step further and also imposed a ban on future privately-run photographic charters. In an interview General Manager Helen Smith said “the income we receive from lineside passes and privately-run photo charters is insignificant when compared to the potential risk these activities naturally contain.” She goes on to say “only a handful of heritage railways currently do so (i.e. allow these ‘high-risk activities’ to continue), and I expect that soon there will be none.” The interview was reported in the April 15th issue of "Heritage Railway" magazine.

Helen Smith alleges that railway photography is “high risk” without quoting any recent photography-related incidents. She does mention two falls from height, neither of which involved a photographer. The use of a trained lookout accompanying photo charters would surely be a remedy and, if the cost of the charter goes up as a result, this is unlikely to be a cause for complaint.

It's sad that the SVR feel the need to bring an end to lineside permits & photo charters, but in this "where there's blame there's a claim" culture we are now in which forces institutions to avoid risk I'm not in the least bit surprised.

Helen Smith is correct - the legal framework around heritage railways is tightening rapidly, with the ORR scrutinising them far more. Having people on the lineside taking photos, or running photo charters with lineside access is a high risk activity.

You don't wait for there to be an incident before doing something about it - you try writing a risk assessment and method statement for such activities!

It is clearly reward v risk. The SVR don't earn enough from these events to make any mitigation worth the money.

BTW trainspotting isn't immune for complying with the law. If that is "taking the enjoyment out of the hobby" then so be it. Better there is a hobby. The ORR are looking, rightly, very closely at heritage railways. The days of playing trains is long gone and rightly so.

Helen Smith has a point, don't be surprised if lineside permits get revoked at other railways in the future due to crack downs by the ORR.
No matter how much enjoyment we gain from these railways, it is worth remembering railways are an inherently dangerous environment.

43096 you're absolutely correct, the ORR seems to be focusing on Heritage operations lately weather they be private-line or mainline.
For instance:
West Somerset getting shut down.
The ORR have been consulting for a while now about the use of slam-door stock (particular without CDL), also stock with opening windows on both the mainline and private-lines.

No matter how much we want to recreate and enjoy the railways of yesteryear the powers that be will always be pushing for better safety standards regardless of weather us bystanders think it's the nanny-state gone mad again.

 

[Llanigraham]

That's a valid question and I wouldn't dispute the underlying point. However, it's generally enthusiasts who volunteer at heritage railways and keep them running, that's what I was getting at. If you remove the enjoyment you risk depending on paid employees which isn't a situation any heritage railway wants to be in. I'll reiterate, I'm not suggesting that's the stage we're at now, simply that if you remove the enjoyment you risk removing the incentive to get involved for many people.

I think you might be surprised how many volunteers actually aren't interested in the actual daily running of their railway but are only interested in other fields, be that engineeering, track laying, construction or even selling tea. A perfect example of that was the "Devialionalists" of the Festiniog, many of whom left as soon as the new diversionary line from Dduallt was built. Personally I have no interest in getting involved in running days at "my" railway but am perfectly happy helping build new coaches, wagons or repairing/restoring old ones, and can think of at least 4 others who are the same.

 

[Llanigraham]

Fair point - so what is the enjoyment in volunteering? Does stopping photo charters and line side photography access impact on that - genuine question. i don't know.

Simple; being out of the house doing something different with a group of different people and learning new skills, so no stopping those wouldn't affect me directly BUT it could do if something went wrong where those people were involved.

 

[Sean Emmett]

I’m curious - was the charter on time when it arrived at Kidderminster? Or was the SVR service running late. Knowing how carefully stuff is planned that sounds like a case of regulation rather than incompetence.

IIRC yes it was on time leaving NR and we were warned by on-board announcement that there would be a bit of a wait to get into the platform.

A pity, as the shop seemed worth a browse. We did have another break at Bewdley.

 

[DustyBin]

Fair point - so what is the enjoyment in volunteering? Does stopping photo charters and line side photography access impact on that - genuine question. i don't know.

For some it likely will, although I’d say it will be a very small minority. My concern is where does it stop; I speculated and somebody else actually confirmed up thread that central door locking could be next. The “theme park” @Merle Haggard referred to could easily become reality.

I think you might be surprised how many volunteers actually aren't interested in the actual daily running of their railway but are only interested in other fields, be that engineeering, track laying, construction or even selling tea. A perfect example of that was the "Devialionalists" of the Festiniog, many of whom left as soon as the new diversionary line from Dduallt was built. Personally I have no interest in getting involved in running days at "my" railway but am perfectly happy helping build new coaches, wagons or repairing/restoring old ones, and can think of at least 4 others who are the same.

Apologies, by “daily running” I meant volunteering in the various fields such as the ones you describe, all of which contribute to keeping the railway operational (I don’t actively volunteer anywhere at present but like you my interest is in the engineering side).

 

[43066]

Reading the Winter SVR News suggests that the railway may be moving in a new direction - there's a new chair. There's some interesting statements, for instance "As we seek new markets, the focus may change to high-value adding solutions, such as dining trains" which, amongst other implications, suggests that the writer has fully absorbed 1990s marketing-speak. Curiously in view of the O.P., it continues "the mix between charters and regular service may also change" which implies to me an increase in the former. It continues with the view that the people are less interested in what's on the front of the train than a couple of decades ago, which infers greater use of diesels. I also detected an inference that the steam enthusiast represented such a small part of the market that they no longer needed be catered for, and they would just have to get used to it - they don't need them (us).

Of course, those aging steam enthusiasts donated the money to buy the line and the locos and rolling stock in the first place, but that's quietly forgotten.

The journey to Theme Park continues...

“Value adding trains” means they are looking at prioritising those services which pay the bills. Let’s face it many enthusiasts have short arms and long pockets, and these railways need to cater for a wider market if they are to survive. The SVR is a good example of a railway which is probably too lengthy for the average casual visitor to enjoy a simple train journey, hence the need to diversify into other areas which can be charged at a premium. I happen to think that’s a good thing for the future of the hobby as a whole.

Another point here is that tastes and expectations have moved on a great deal over the last few years and people are now a lot more demanding. For the amount of money most heritage railways charge for tickets people will now expect an “experience” rather than just a ride on an old train followed by a cup of tea in a greasy spoon. If the heritage market doesn’t adapt to this it will simply become unviable.

On the health and safety point, having attended a few heritage railway galas and a few rail tours on the mainline, unfortunately a significant minority of enthusiasts behave in a manner which gives the entire hobby a bad reputation hence the need to manage risk in today’s climate. As others have noted heritage railways are increasingly under the microscope, and mainline rail tours even more so, so it’s only sensible for the industry to address this proactively without waiting for yet more near misses (or worse).

The mix between diesel and steam enthusiasts is an interesting one. I would agree steam probably has more headline draw for Joe public, but I wouldn’t be surprised if steam enthusiasts are now outnumbered by diesel. A lot of enthusiasm is generated by the rolling stock we remember from our childhoods, and there cannot now be anyone much under sixty who remembers steam on the mainline. Certainly amongst the younger adult enthusiasts I know (myself included) steam holds relatively little appeal. That trend will only increase with each passing year.

 

[etr221]

Given the comment about (some) enthusiast behaviour at galas, I would dare suggest that photographic charters might be a 'safer' option - while there are risks (as there are in everything), I would say they (risks) are well managed, and that participants are both more reponsible, and more 'under control' than at a gala - and there is normally only one train to worry about.

And if the railway is making a loss on them, then that's down to what they're charging. Reading what the SVR said in their announcement, it seems to more more like an excuse than a reason.

 

[bramling]

“Value adding trains” means they are looking at prioritising those services which pay the bills. Let’s face it many enthusiasts have short arms and long pockets, and these railways need to cater for a wider market if they are to survive. The SVR is a good example of a railway which is probably too lengthy for the average casual visitor to enjoy a simple train journey, hence the need to diversify into other areas which can be charged at a premium. I happen to think that’s a good thing for the future of the hobby as a whole.

Another point here is that tastes and expectations have moved on a great deal over the last few years and people are now a lot more demanding. For the amount of money most heritage railways charge for tickets people will now expect an “experience” rather than just a ride on an old train followed by a cup of tea in a greasy spoon. If the heritage market doesn’t adapt to this it will simply become unviable.

On the health and safety point, having attended a few heritage railway galas and a few rail tours on the mainline, unfortunately a significant minority of enthusiasts behave in a manner which gives the entire hobby a bad reputation hence the need to manage risk in today’s climate. As others have noted heritage railways are increasingly under the microscope, and mainline rail tours even more so, so it’s only sensible for the industry to address this proactively without waiting for yet more near misses (or worse).

The mix between diesel and steam enthusiasts is an interesting one. I would agree steam probably has more headline draw for Joe public, but I wouldn’t be surprised if steam enthusiasts are now outnumbered by diesel. A lot of enthusiasm is generated by the rolling stock we remember from our childhoods, and there cannot now be anyone much under sixty who remembers steam on the mainline. Certainly amongst the younger adult enthusiasts I know (myself included) steam holds relatively little appeal. That trend will only increase with each passing year.

The point about steam is an interesting one. Personally I enjoy a good run up something like the Ffestiniog or Vale of Rheidol as much as anyone else and diesel probably wouldn’t cut it there. However on your average full-size heritage railway I find steam can be pretty boring, especially when combined with Mk1s (something more specialised like the Isle of Wight Steam Railway is a different matter) - I don’t mind it once in a while, but that’s about it.

I’m not sure how Joe Public sees it though. I took a friend with little railway interest on the NYMR just before Covid, and he remarked afterwards that he preferred it when a diesel loco took over the train for the Grosmont to Whitby section. But meanwhile there was a group of oldies on there who kicked up a big fuss about the diesel fumes and irritated everyone by going round closing all the windows.

Trip Adviser can be an interesting read for preserved railways, Joe Public can get a bee in their bonnet over the strangest things. I’d say about half of all negative reviews tend to revolve around dogs, especially outside the London/south-east area - some complaining about stuff as daft as lack of dog bowls, others moaning that their dogs weren’t made as welcome as they might have liked, and then others moaning about their day having been ruined because someone else had a panting dog in the carriage for the whole journey.

I think the only thing anyone can conclude is that it’s very difficult for preserved railways to balance out competing preferences. At least for something like a diesel gala or dining train it’s pretty clear what the majority of people will want and expect!

For me I just want a compartment with no one else in, and a loco that makes a sound pleasing to the ear, and ideally some nice scenery. Beyond that I’m not too fussed!

 

[DustyBin]

The point about steam is an interesting one. Personally I enjoy a good run up something like the Ffestiniog or Vale of Rheidol as much as anyone else and diesel probably wouldn’t cut it there. However on your average full-size heritage railway I find steam can be pretty boring, especially when combined with Mk1s (something more specialised like the Isle of Wight Steam Railway is a different matter) - I don’t mind it once in a while, but that’s about it.

I’m not sure how Joe Public sees it though. I took a friend with little railway interest on the NYMR just before Covid, and he remarked afterwards that he preferred it when a diesel loco took over the train for the Grosmont to Whitby section. But meanwhile there was a group of oldies on there who kicked up a big fuss about the diesel fumes and irritated everyone by going round closing all the windows.

Trip Adviser can be an interesting read for preserved railways, Joe Public can get a bee in their bonnet over the strangest things. I’d say about half of all negative reviews tend to revolve around dogs, especially outside the London/south-east area - some complaining about stuff as daft as lack of dog bowls, others moaning that their dogs weren’t made as welcome as they might have liked, and then others moaning about their day having been ruined because someone else had a panting dog in the carriage for the whole journey.

I think the only thing anyone can conclude is that it’s very difficult for preserved railways to balance out competing preferences. At least for something like a diesel gala or dining train it’s pretty clear what the majority of people will want and expect!

For me I just want a compartment with no one else in, and a loco that makes a sound pleasing to the ear, and ideally some nice scenery. Beyond that I’m not too fussed!

You raise some interesting points there which reflect my own experience/observations.

I had to laugh at the diesel fumes “concern”, I suspect if it had been smoke from a coal burner they’d have been lapping up the nostalgic smell!

 

[43066]

Given the comment about (some) enthusiast behaviour at galas, I would dare suggest that photographic charters might be a 'safer' option - while there are risks (as there are in everything), I would say they (risks) are well managed, and that participants are both more reponsible, and more 'under control' than at a gala - and there is normally only one train to worry about.

And if the railway is making a loss on them, then that's down to what they're charging. Reading what the SVR said in their announcement, it seems to more more like an excuse than a reason.

I should say I was talking mostly about mainline rail tours and galas there. I’ve never been on a specific photographic charter.

But surely if there was a way the SVR could monetise these outings they would do so. Why would they find excuses not to? Especially after the dreadful year preserved railways have just had.

However on your average full-size heritage railway I find steam can be pretty boring, especially when combined with Mk1s (something more specialised like the Isle of Wight Steam Railway is a different matter) - I don’t mind it once in a while, but that’s about it.

Agreed. I visited the IoWSR last summer as it happens. I was mostly impressed by the ‘38 tube stock, running on NR metals, which predated the steam loco we were then hauled by!

As a 30-something my focus would be: southern region EMUs; all things tube; certain diesel locomotive classes; HSTs; signalling and a few other bits and bobs. That’s a reflection of my age and where I grew up. Steam doesn’t particularly figure, much as I appreciate it when I see it.

I think the only thing anyone can conclude is that it’s very difficult for preserved railways to balance out competing preferences.

Indeed. And of course those railways have to look to the most lucrative markets if they are to remain viable, which is the point many enthusiasts miss.

I suspect operating semi-scheduled trains for the enthusiast market is far less lucrative than gourmet dining experiences, Thomas themed days for families, real ale booze cruises, Santa days etc. which will appeal to a far wider audience. Both can remain, but the latter will be required in order to subsidise the former.

For me I just want a compartment with no one else in, and a loco that makes a sound pleasing to the ear, and ideally some nice scenery. Beyond that I’m not too fussed!

Sounds like you want to drive an HST. Don’t we all!

 

[bramling]

You raise some interesting points there which reflect my own experience/observations.

I had to laugh at the diesel fumes “concern”, I suspect if it had been smoke from a coal burner they’d have been lapping up the nostalgic smell!

I find people making a fuss about diesel fumes isn’t uncommon. The same thing happened at, if my memory is right, the most recent Severn Valley diesel gala I attended, except on that occasion - as one would expect - the windows found themselves open again pretty quickly! Anyone wanting windows closed at a diesel gala is definitely going to be on to a loser!

I have always wondered why many people actually travel on preserved railways. Many seem to turn up, the kids get bored quite quickly, and the focus pretty quickly becomes the restaurant or cafe. I remember visiting the Foxfield Railway a couple of years back - my main motivation was to tick it off the list, and to have a look at some particular items of vintage stock in their sheds. It probably wasn’t helped that they had some kind of event on in their car park, but each train ride was absolutely packed to capacity - to the extend that people were standing. I don’t really get why anyone would want to subject themselves to that for pleasure, especially for a ride which isn’t really scenic. People seem to do it, though.

 

[BigB]

Lots of really interesting views, and a good balance for both sides.
In my experiences photo charters can be quite a good idea when focused - in one example the fees also paid for the engine to be repainted from LNER green to BR black especially for the charter- this was okay as it needed a repaint, but was also due its overhaul in a few years where we would need to paint it anyway, so black made a nice change for a while and we made money.
These charters used an intermediate station so people could get on and off the "period" stock safely and the train could then run back and forth. There was an out of the way stop where access was provided to get out, but as it had the whole line booked, and stewards to shepherd the photographers this was a safe operation (and there was a safety brief beforehand).
Photographers wanting the atmospheric evening shots of the engines relaxing on shed are understandable, but do get a bit in the way of the staff working to prepare them for the night, and this is about the only place I really see operational requirements at odds with the charter. That said, they do have to pay a premium for these sessions, and where possible every allowance is made.
However galas bring out loads of people with cameras - often very expensive which obviously leaves them no money to contribute towards the cost of the event as they either just stand on the platform or just outside the station. If you are on every train you tend to notice that they are always there and their bums never touch the seats.
As for the volunteers being bothered - few take pictures unless something special is on site apart from the younger members and those logging overhauls, and are quite focussed on the jobs they have. Many of the retired engineers just want to do something practical, and often had little interest in railways before they started here. Marine engineers in particular seemed interested in helping out with the steam engines - they cut their teeth on steam turbine engines and wanted to get back to their roots.
The non-enthusiast pool is vast, and if it offers something to people who previously just had the odd visit it can be a real bonus - many are very keen to learn new skills, or utilise those they have in new ways. I would love a couple of retired experienced spray painters to come along wanting to volunteer, and if they have only ever dealt with vans or trucks in the past that would not be a problem! On the contrary, it would probably be us looking to learn from them....

 

[43066]

I have always wondered why many people actually travel on preserved railways.

For most it’s something to do to shut the kids up during half term/Easter holidays etc. They probably get a slap in the face when they’re asked to shell out £50+ for a family of four, hence the need to deliver some bang for the buck in terms of “experience”.

my main motivation was to tick it off the list, and to have a look at some particular items of vintage stock in their sheds.

I can remember wandering around loco sheds as a young kid with my parents and siblings in the early 90s, even running through loco inspection pits! Unthinkable these days and not many would be interested in that kind of thing, let’s face it.

I was allowed more freedom as a 9yo at a heritage railway depot than my TOC would allow me as a fully qualified driver these days!

 

[eldomtom2]

Surely photo charters do not inherently require lineside access for the photographers? What makes them high-risk - large numbers of people milling about and being potentially willing to engage in unsafe activities?

 

[172007]

Surely photo charters do not inherently require lineside access for the photographers? What makes them high-risk - large numbers of people milling about and being potentially willing to engage in unsafe activities?l

Seeing photos of photo charters you can see trains stopped in various photogenic places and people all about outside outside.

I think the ORR and possibly some preserved lines have looked at near misses, accidents and deaths on the Mainline; experienced Pway and a driver. The conclusion reached is that even experienced people have accidents so having members of the public about is now seen as a risk to far.

Irony is, we all complain about traffic speed on "our" roads but don't accept speed humps etc until someone is killed. The ORR and preserved lines are being sensible doing something before and serious accident / death happens.

 

[eldomtom2]

Seeing photos of photo charters you can see trains stopped in various photogenic places and people all about outside outside.

Yes, but is that inherent to the concept of photo charters?

 

[172007]

Yes, but is that inherent to the concept of photo charters?

Yea, and that's the issue. How do you get the passengers off, ladders I.e. standard built in steps on ends of coaches or lean too on rough ground, H&S nightmare. Also when the first group request wheelchair access to a charter how do you explain in this modern world that you can't; PR nightmare waiting to happen.