Sheffield - free bridge or not free bridge??

[dannypye9999]

What is it with Sheffield these days, the bridge that links the main concourse to the supertram exit, I thought Sheffield council had prohibited Train companys from doing ticket checks meaning the bridge was free for public use to cross to supertram but lately in last few weeks ive been refused entry and been made to walk the long way round?

 

[sonic2009]

Which TOC was doing the ticket check? It was mooted that EMT were looking to put barriers in at Sheffield, but the council had a say in it. I do remember hearing that £3m pounds was offered for a new bridge, but this was back in 2012.

Not being from the area i couldn't comment any further but more people may have more information.

 

[dannypye9999]

It was northern doing the checks. Surely they can do the checks on the direct staircases to the platforms rather than the bridge stairs, but there again this would cost more staff.

 

[Haydn1971]

Next time, ask for proof of ID, make a note and then make a formal complaint to East Midlands Trains who manage the station with a copy to Nick Clegg as a the local MP with most clout !

 

[yorkie]

I suggest you write to the Council to see whether or not they have an agreement with the Train Companies that access should be available via the bridge.

I was under the impression that ticket barriers were refused to maintain access.

Let us know their response, I'd be interested to hear it!

 

[WillPS]

Officially, planning for ticket barriers was rejected because they would have a detrimental effect on the building. But yeah don't just let them get away with it, it's absolutely not on.

 

[Lockwood]

Couldn't they do Bridge Passes like Guildford?
Satisfy both sides?

 

[Comstock]

I often wonder how much good the ticket barriers at Derby actually do. Surely all I need to do is purchase a single to Spondon, Duffield or Peartree- whichever is cheapest- and wander through the barrier.

Meantime access to Pride Park is restricted, you can't get onto the station to meet someone (there is nowhere to sit in the concourse and not even an arrivals screen) and you can't nip in to use the loo. They are also awkward with a bicycle.

Ticket barriers are a pain, they inconvenience the innocent and I'm not convinced they reduce fare evasion.

I would fight to keep them away at Sheffield if you can.

 

[Qwerty133]

I often wonder how much good the ticket barriers at Derby actually do. Surely all I need to do is purchase a single to Spondon, Duffield or Peartree- whichever is cheapest- and wander through the barrier.

Meantime access to Pride Park is restricted, you can't get onto the station to meet someone (there is nowhere to sit in the concourse and not even an arrivals screen) and you can't nip in to use the loo. They are also awkward with a bicycle.

Ticket barriers are a pain, they inconvenience the innocent and I'm not convinced they reduce fare evasion.

I would fight to keep them away at Sheffield if you can.

There is an arrivals screen in uppercrust on the concourse at derby as well as a large waiting room with seating on the concourse side of the ticket barriers.

 

[dosxuk]

As I understand it, the planning application for permanent barriers failed because of the station being a listed building and the council "were concerned" as to the impact the barriers would have on the building - basically using the listed building status as an excuse to block the installation (the council don't support the idea).

However, the council are powerless to stop the TOC's from operating manual barriers / ticket checks as the bridge and whole station are private property. The subsequent / related claim that the bridge was a public right of way (and should therefore always be available to non passengers) failed when the proponents of that idea conceded that the route is closed daily so doesn't qualify as a de-facto right of way.

I believe that as things stand, a new bridge is to be built, but this was put on hold as a result of the electrification announcement and will be included in changes to the station when that happens.

 

[tbtc]

Next time, ask for proof of ID, make a note and then make a formal complaint to East Midlands Trains who manage the station with a copy to Nick Clegg as a the local MP with most clout !

What have the staff done wrong here to justify this kind of reaction?

 

[northwichcat]

Ticket barriers are a pain, they inconvenience the innocent and I'm not convinced they reduce fare evasion.

Ticket barriers are dumb machines that accept what they are programmed to accept and reject what they aren't programmed to accept.

Ticket barriers in the above sentence is interchangeable with G4S RPIs.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What have the staff done wrong here to justify this kind of reaction?

If it is a public right of way and RPIs are refusing to allow people through then I think the RPIs are committing a criminal offence.

 

[tbtc]

If it is a public right of way and RPIs are refusing to allow people through then I think the RPIs are committing a criminal offence.

My understanding is that its not a public right of way (there is a parallel bridge over the railway line that doesn't have access to the platforms)

 

[swt_passenger]

My understanding is that its not a public right of way (there is a parallel bridge over the railway line that doesn't have access to the platforms)

Googling suggests that back in 2011, the council were talking about making it into a right of way (RoW), but didn't take plans forward, because the then SofS Justine Greening came up with £3m for another bridge.

The problem seems to me that many people seem to believe it already is a RoW based purely on what they want it to be; and it just doesn't work like that. I doubt the council could unilaterally make it so anyway, because NR and EMT would show that over a long period of time it has not been continuously open...

 

[brompton rail]

Googling suggests that back in 2011, the council were talking about making it into a right of way (RoW), but didn't take plans forward, because the then SofS Justine Greening came up with £3m for another bridge.

The problem seems to me that many people seem to believe it already is a RoW based purely on what they want it to be; and it just doesn't work like that. I doubt the council could unilaterally make it so anyway, because NR and EMT would show that over a long period of time it has not been continuously open...

It isn't a PROW. Nor likely to be. However the issue is that ....
1. Public money was expended to build the bridge and its entrance to the tram
2. Tram passengers have to cross the bridge to reach the ticket office and station facilities, as well as the bus station. The ticket machines at the tram stop entrance can only offer a fraction of the available tickets from Sheffield.
3. The tram stop is called Sheffield Station and Sheffield Hallam University - there is no convenient way to reach the University other than via the station bridge. Elderley and Disabled people cannot use the horrible alternative bridge which is about 500m further south as both ends are accessed by steep steps.
4. The residents of the recently restored Park Hill Flats can only reach the town via the station bridge.
5. The tram network and the station are both operated by Stagecoach companies.

There is considerable local resistance to barriers. Barriers at the foot of the platform staircases would be both a safety hazard - passengers queuing on staircases, an impediment to changing trains. Similarly barriers on the footbridge would also detain and delay passengers changing trains. There are four staircase entrances from the central island platform (2,3,4 & 5) and two from platform 6,7,8. The entrance /exit at the station front leads into the concourse, but also serves platform 1.

Practically the station does not lend itself to barriers.

On train inspection needs to be beefed up, perhaps with squads of RPIs travelling on Northern trains between Meadowhall and Sheffield. EMT can do similar between Chesterfield (is it gated?) and Sheffield. XC mostly conduct checks between stations anyway.

 

[bb21]

EMT can do similar between Chesterfield (is it gated?) and Sheffield.

Chesterfield is ungated.

I agree that there is no feasible way of putting up gatelines at Sheffield station, at least not without extensive work.

 

[Wolfie]

Officially, planning for ticket barriers was rejected because they would have a detrimental effect on the building. But yeah don't just let them get away with it, it's absolutely not on.

The Council remain engaged, see link, not least because they paid most (all?) of the cost of bridge enhancement work not that long ago on the basis it would remain open to access....

http://www.thestar.co.uk/what-s-on/...footpath-to-ease-station-bridge-row-1-1831505

 

[swt_passenger]

The Council remain engaged, see link, not least because they paid most (all?) of the cost of bridge enhancement work not that long ago on the basis it would remain open to access....

http://www.thestar.co.uk/what-s-on/...footpath-to-ease-station-bridge-row-1-1831505

Out of date info. That link must be from 2010, from reading the text (unless for some odd reason they still have a Labour government in Sheffield as reported). :roll:

Like many news websites they confusingly stick the current date on archive stuff...

 

[talltim]

I was just thinking that I hadn't seen a human barrier for ages at Sheffield, or chesterfield where they are more frequent

 

[RichmondCommu]

I often wonder how much good the ticket barriers at Derby actually do. Surely all I need to do is purchase a single to Spondon, Duffield or Peartree- whichever is cheapest- and wander through the barrier.

Until you get your ticket checked once you're on the train.

 

[dannypye9999]

The majority of trains that run from Sheffield are local northern rail services to Manchester Picc, Barnsley/Leeds, Rotherham/Doncaster and Nottingham/Lincoln, These trains use the bay platforms situated along the platforms.

I see no reason why Northern cant set up manual barriers to do their ticket checks on access to the bay platforms. It makes more sense than holding up Cross Country and East Midlands passengers on the stairs and who arnt even travelling with Northern rail.

 

[sheff1]

Chesterfield is ungated.

I agree that there is no feasible way of putting up gatelines at Sheffield station, at least not without extensive work.

And therein lies the irony. Chesterfield could be easily gated with very little protest as there are no RoW (imagined or otherwise) issues there and only one entrance.

Doncaster is the same, but on that line the obsession seems to be with gating York - another station where gates are far less feasible.

 

[northwichcat]

The problem seems to me that many people seem to believe it already is a RoW based purely on what they want it to be;

My understanding is there is an act where landowners have allowed private land to be used to public access they can't just shut off public access overnight under UK legislation except where other UK legislation contradicts that.

 

[Comstock]

Until you get your ticket checked once you're on the train.

Sure. But that has nothing to do with ticket barriers- that's my point.

Even with ticket barriers you still need to have ticket inspectors on the trains...

 

[dosxuk]

My understanding is there is an act where landowners have allowed private land to be used to public access they can't just shut off public access overnight under UK legislation except where other UK legislation contradicts that.

This was the argument given - which fell through pretty rapidly when the proponents admitted that yes, the station was locked up every night, preventing access across the bridge - so no continuous access as required to establish a de-facto right of way. Then there's the issue that the bridge has only been there for a few years anyway - far less than that needed to establish a de-facto right of way.

 

[northwichcat]

This was the argument given - which fell through pretty rapidly when the proponents admitted that yes, the station was locked up every night, preventing access across the bridge - so no continuous access as required to establish a de-facto right of way. Then there's the issue that the bridge has only been there for a few years anyway - far less than that needed to establish a de-facto right of way.

According to NRE Sheffield station is open 24 hours a day. There are scheduled trains at 01:20, 01:32, 03:25, 05:02 and 05:11 so not locking up would make sense.

If the bridge has only been there for a 'few years' it means it must have replaced an old one, unless previously passengers had to walk all the way around to get between Supertram and National Rail.

Having round the clock access is an interesting one anyway considering some public rights of way would be dangerous to access outside daylight hours.

 

[brompton rail]

According to NRE Sheffield station is open 24 hours a day. There are scheduled trains at 01:20, 01:32, 03:25, 05:02 and 05:11 so not locking up would make sense.

If the bridge has only been there for a 'few years' it means it must have replaced an old one, unless previously passengers had to walk all the way around to get between Supertram and National Rail.

Having round the clock access is an interesting one anyway considering some public rights of way would be dangerous to access outside daylight hours.

If you look on National Rail for Sheffield station diagram you will find two exit/entrance symbols shown on the east (Supertram) side of the station. The southernmost one is at the tram stop and in use. The northern symbol indicates where South Yorkshire PTE erected a temporary bridge from Platform 8 to the tram. The original station bridge only covered platforms 1 to 8 and did not reach the tram line.

Station rebuilding under MML extended the bridge to the current tram stop.

 

[swt_passenger]

My understanding is there is an act where landowners have allowed private land to be used to public access they can't just shut off public access overnight under UK legislation except where other UK legislation contradicts that.

If you read the three year old news article linked above, it actually does explain that although the council thought they could declare the bridge a right of way, their 'officers report' (the full time professional experts), had advised that they couldn't.

But a council report dated July 13 said "it would seem unlikely" a compulsory footpath order would get past a public inquiry. The joint council and SYPTE report said a public right of way would require evidence of use dating back 20 years - impossible because the bridge is not that old.

Councillors tend to say what will get them votes, not necessarily based on the evidence...

 

[dosxuk]

According to NRE Sheffield station is open 24 hours a day. There are scheduled trains at 01:20, 01:32, 03:25, 05:02 and 05:11 so not locking up would make sense.

The station is locked up from around 1.30am until about 5am. The 3.25am departure you have to queue up near the entrance to the station to be allowed in shortly before the train is due to depart. I believe the tram bridge access is shut after the last tram until just before the first tram (it's been closed and locked when I've tried to access it at 1am before).

If the bridge has only been there for a 'few years' it means it must have replaced an old one, unless previously passengers had to walk all the way around to get between Supertram and National Rail.

The new bridge replaced two separate bridges.

There is another bridge from the tramline to the street outside the station, about 50m to the south of the station bridge which is always open to the public - however, it is unlit and unsuitable for the disabled with steps at both ends. It's pretty much the definition of a public right of way that is unsafe to use 24 hours a day.

 

[ex-railwayman]

I see no reason why Northern cant set up manual barriers to do their ticket checks on access to the bay platforms. It makes more sense than holding up Cross Country and East Midlands passengers on the stairs and who arnt even travelling with Northern rail.

Yes, that's a good question, if I have a ticket to travel with EMT, how would Northern staff know what it's operational limitations are as they're an entirely different TOC, or, are they just checking to ensure folks crossing the bridge have a valid ticket to enter the station platforms ?
As far as I know all stations are run by NR, if a station has 3, or, more TOC's using it, can they all check each others tickets, I thought that was the norm, these days.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.