Sheffield - Luton Airport PW UPFN - Advice Needed

[WillPS]

Hi all,
Would really appreciate some help here.

I booked FC AP tickets online, valid between the above stations, starting on the 1127 SHF - STP, with a change at Leicester.

I arrived at SHF in plenty of time, but there was a massive queue for both sets of ticket machines. I joined the smaller queue, but I got to 1023 then saw the booking office queue was empty, so I jumped over, explained quickly that I was likely to miss the train if delayed any further - the lady (serving from Window 9 - I'm pretty sure) flatly refused to help, telling me I should have get here sooner and they can't do it (I know this to be false, I've collected from the window at Nottingham and Chesterfield many a time). I asked to speak with her manager but was advised of a 10 minute wait.

I instead ran to the train, found the TM and quickly tried to explain - he advised me that if I got on I could be PF'd but they were appeal-able.

I got on, sat in Standard so as not to cause a fuss, and an RPI came along. I explained the whole scenario (with printed itineraries) and she advised "I hadn't got a ticket". I asked her politely if she could issue me with an UPFN so I could take this up with EMT. I was immediately asked how I knew such things existed and told that they were not just given out like that. (I was being accused of serial fare dodging, I think). I explained that I was interested in the railways and aware of my rights as a passenger, and that I'm sure it would easier to object to a UPFN than receive a refund on a PF/dupe ticket.

I was then invited to leave the train at Chesterfield to collect my tickets - I said if I did that my ticket would instantly be voided since it was only valid on the 1127. Instead I was issued a UPFN to Luton Airport Parkway.

First question - should I pull the ticket off at Luton AP or later on, or should I leave it uncollected?

Second - could anybody help me word my appeal?

 

[cuccir]

Couple of questions for further details which will help when others with more experience turn up:

I arrived at SHF in plenty of time

When precisely is 'plenty of time'? Are we talking 10 minutes, 15, 20, 30?

but I got to 1023 then saw the booking office queue was empty

I presume you mean 1123 here?

 

[WillPS]

I do, you're quite right.

I was there at least 15 minutes before departure, but less than 30.

 

[LexyBoy]

Did the RPI who issued the UPFN write down that you were unable to collect the ticket as the reason for issue? I would try and find them and amend it (if possible) with a note that you were not able to collect the ticket, and the reference number.

 

[WillPS]

She did not. The reason ticked is "00 No ticket". I'm on a different train now but I did get her name and I'm sure she'll remember what I told her (it was not a short altercation).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

As I understand it the UPFN is an option the guard/TM has, not a right for the passenger.

If you are unable to collect a ToD ticket, you should be sold a new ticket. Where a new ticket is sold you should apply to the ToD seller for a refund, however I would advise that 'long queues' are not normally accepted reasons for such things.

My knowledge of ToD is a little limited so I have consulted the FRPP and it says ToD for Chesterfield, Nottingham and Leicester is via TVM only. Aberdeen, for example, is listed as TVM and ticket office. So Nottingham and Chesterfield may have been going 'beyond their responsibility' previously. This is not to say that the facility for Leicester to do it is not there, but that it is only really as a back up incase of TVM failure.

It is your responsibility to show a valid ticket to the on train staff, so I would pay the UPFN and get in touch with the ToD seller.

 

[WillPS]

As I understand it the UPFN is an option the guard/TM has, not a right for the passenger.

If you are unable to collect a ToD ticket, you should be sold a new ticket. Where a new ticket is sold you should apply to the ToD seller for a refund, however I would advise that 'long queues' are not normally accepted reasons for such things.

My knowledge of ToD is a little limited so I have consulted the FRPP and it says ToD for Chesterfield, Nottingham and Leicester is via TVM only. Aberdeen, for example, is listed as TVM and ticket office. So Nottingham and Chesterfield may have been going 'beyond their responsibility' previously. This is not to say that the facility for Leicester to do it is not there, but that it is only really as a back up incase of TVM failure.

It is your responsibility to show a valid ticket to the on train staff, so I would pay the UPFN and get in touch with the ToD seller.

I purchased the ticket from Southern.

I have paid for and expected to receive a ticket. I allowed a reasonable amount of time to collect the tickets.

Their passenger charter states:
Our aim is to serve you within three minutes at off-peak times
and five minutes at peak times.

I was waiting far longer than that.

 

[bnm]

My knowledge of ToD is a little limited so I have consulted the FRPP and it says ToD for Chesterfield, Nottingham and Leicester is via TVM only. Aberdeen, for example, is listed as TVM and ticket office. So Nottingham and Chesterfield may have been going 'beyond their responsibility' previously. This is not to say that the facility for Leicester to do it is not there, but that it is only really as a back up incase of TVM failure.

OP was collecting tickets at Sheffield.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The passengers charter also says....

....Penalty Fares

East Midlands Trains operates a Penalty Fare scheme on some
services (please see the map on page 14). Failure to produce a
valid ticket for your entire journey could result in a minimum
Penalty Fare of £20 or twice the single fare, whichever is greater,
to the next station stop....

So I suggest you pay the UPFN, contact Southern and get them to refund you, the guard/TM didn't do much wrong from your account of the incident. I could only really argue that they didn't issue you with a ticket/Penalty Fare rather than a UPFN, but then that is a question of which rules take precedence and how you interpret them (it was possible to collect the tickets if you had more time or the queues were shorter).

As you were warned of the consequences of boarding the train before doing so, I'm not sure how much of a case you actually have.

 

[LexyBoy]

If you are unable to collect a ToD ticket, you should be sold a new ticket. Where a new ticket is sold you should apply to the ToD seller for a refund, however I would advise that 'long queues' are not normally accepted reasons for such things.

Ticket booking sites are careful not to specify a minimum time to collect your ticket (RailEasy being an exception, which recommends a "minimum of 20 minutes before departure"). The cynical might say that this is to give them wriggle room in the case of claims like the OP's. Passenger Charters are a load of guff unfortunately.

That aside, it is not acceptable IMO to say that the passenger only has a right to a refund on the original ticket. They have entered into a contract for travel, and it is not their fault if they are unable to collect the ticket if they have left reasonable time to do so.

It's unfortunate that the OP bought the ticket from another TOC, I suspect it'll add complexity to any refund claims.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

OP was collecting tickets at Sheffield.

Ooops! Yes okay, I got that wrong, I must have confused myself somewhere. Checking the FRPP again Sheffield is listed as TVM only.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

....That aside, it is not acceptable IMO to say that the passenger only has a right to a refund on the original ticket. They have entered into a contract for travel, and it is not their fault if they are unable to collect the ticket if they have left reasonable time to do so....

I didn't say the refund would be on the original ticket, the FRPP seems to be non-specific on the matter.

 

[LexyBoy]

I didn't say the refund would be on the original ticket, the FRPP seems to be non-specific on the matter.

Fair enough, but I'd be surprised if Southern would refund a ticket bought with EMT (i.e. the UPFN). I can imagine they'd say that EMT should pay, since they are responsible for the TVMs at Sheffield, and EMT would say that Southern, as the ticket seller, are responsible for delivery.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Maybe, but that is not the passengers concern. If Southern refunded the money, it may be Southern that foot the bill rather than EMT, but the real question is if they believe they should refund it, given that the machines clearly did work.

 

[Ferret]

Ticket booking sites are careful not to specify a minimum time to collect your ticket (RailEasy being an exception, which recommends a "minimum of 20 minutes before departure"). The cynical might say that this is to give them wriggle room in the case of claims like the OP's. Passenger Charters are a load of guff unfortunately.

That aside, it is not acceptable IMO to say that the passenger only has a right to a refund on the original ticket. They have entered into a contract for travel, and it is not their fault if they are unable to collect the ticket if they have left reasonable time to do so.

It's unfortunate that the OP bought the ticket from another TOC, I suspect it'll add complexity to any refund claims.

Well, I can say from my own experience that Sheffield station can be an utter pain for purchasing and collecting tickets, with there being frequent reports of long queues. It's a tough one for traincrew who are instructed not to accept ToD reference numbers as valid for travel, unless the collection machines are broken. I guess it is particularly easy for somebody to print out a ToD ticket, give it to their mate and then try and travel themselves on the ToD ref number - it's wide open to fraud if ref numbers are accepted as a matter of course. Personally I'd like to see ToD abolished in favour of print at home.

For the OP, I definitely think there are grounds for an appeal against the UFN. Certainly talking to EMT's Customer Relations explaining the full circumstances would be a good move, and see if they'll cancel it for you.

 

[Greenback]

The main advantage of TOD that I cna see is the ability to avoid postal charges and collect the ticket at the departure station instead.

If I was booking an advance ticket, then I would leave at least a half an hour, but probably longer, in case of problems with the TVM. In fact, if at all possible, I would collect before the day of travel.

If I wasn't booking an advance ticket, I doubt I'd buy in advance anyway. I'd buy at the station or on the train.

One thing that does strike me is that TOC's need to provide more TVM's in places like Sheffield - or are they trying to make sure people pay again or use postal delivery?!

 

[dzug2]

. Personally I'd like to see ToD abolished in favour of print at home.

.

Doesn't that lead to exactly the same problem - print off an extra copy, mate travels on it?

Though I don't like TOD - only use it when I have to.

 

[Ferret]

Doesn't that lead to exactly the same problem - print off an extra copy, mate travels on it?

Though I don't like TOD - only use it when I have to.

No - print at home requires a form of ID to be valid, be it credit card used to purchase the tickets or whatever. Sure, there are still loopholes, but I'd hope it'd mean fewer legit customers being caught up in issues not of their making.

 

[Bungle73]

Why not have both? P@H is no good if your printer is on the blink, the ink's run out or you simply don't have one. Plus, as you said, you need to carry some form of ID which is a pain; what if you don't have anything?

 

[LexyBoy]

One thing that does strike me is that TOC's need to provide more TVM's in places like Sheffield - or are they trying to make sure people pay again or use postal delivery?!

To be fair (and it's not often I'll use that in relation to a Stagecoach company), EMT offer free postal delivery and are introducing collection-only TVMs in addition to the usual ones.

Well, I can say from my own experience that Sheffield station can be an utter pain for purchasing and collecting tickets, with there being frequent reports of long queues. It's a tough one for traincrew who are instructed not to accept ToD reference numbers as valid for travel, unless the collection machines are broken. I guess it is particularly easy for somebody to print out a ToD ticket, give it to their mate and then try and travel themselves on the ToD ref number - it's wide open to fraud if ref numbers are accepted as a matter of course. Personally I'd like to see ToD abolished in favour of print at home.

I fully appreciate the problems ToD give staff - after all, who is to say whether the passenger gave a "reasonable" amount of time to collect their ticket? It's not fair to have the current Catch-22 situation - collect the ticket but miss the train, or get the train but no ticket.

I'd broadly agree with having P@H, but it should be done properly (i.e. centrally, not on an ad-hoc basis by TOCs). Fraud wouldn't be a problem if staff had scanners capable of reading printed or on-screen barcodes, and ticked tickets off on a central database (or even one just for that train - after all, if multiple copies of an AP ticket were printed they would have to be on the same service).

Anyway, perhaps this week's Print @ Home debate should be continued/moved to another thread to avoid detracting from the OP's plight.

 

[Greenback]

Why not have both? P@H is no good if your printer is on the blink, the ink's run out or you simply don't have one. Plus, as you said, you need to carry some form of ID which is a pain; what if you don't have anything?

It may not be the answer, but it could be par tof the solution.

To be fair (and it's not often I'll use that in relation to a Stagecoach company), EMT offer free postal delivery and are introducing collection-only TVMs in addition to the usual ones.

Good for them! I stand corrected!

 

[WillPS]

So rather than appeal the UPFN via that website, I should contact EMT customer relations directly?

 

[bnm]

Plus, as you said, you need to carry some form of ID which is a pain; what if you don't have anything?

Is it really a pain to carry the debit/credit card you used to make the P@H purchase? I tend not to leave my cards at home. TOCs don't ask for ID per se, just the card used to purchase the ticket.

 

[WillPS]

I think the ability to link it to a railcard would be useful. Having the choice between Railcard, Payment Card or other ID would be useful I feel.

 

[Bungle73]

Is it really a pain to carry the debit/credit card you used to make the P@H purchase? I tend not to leave my cards at home. TOCs don't ask for ID per se, just the card used to purchase the ticket.

Well when they say "ID" to me that means a passport or driver's licence or something.