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Sheffield - Pontefract B - York - most bizarre service in the UK?

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70014IronDuke

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Can anyone explain how this bizarre service has come about in the way it is today?

If i remember correctly, this used to be a main line of sorts - I'm sure I went York - Derby behind a Cl 45 or 46 in the early 70s via Pontefract Baghill, regular service train - though probably on a Sunday.

Now, it's two trains per day, all stations, at odd times (not peak hour) - although the two trains on Sundays are potentially useful late afternoon/evening services.

But this is in heavily populated Yorkshire, not some obscure country branch. Are there no calls to develop the routes (or part of it, eg Pontefract - Sheffield) as a proper, say hourly, suburban service?

It just seems to represent a remaindered service par excellence.

xxxxx
 
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30907

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Can anyone explain how this bizarre service has come about in the way it is today...It just seems to represent a remaindered service par excellence.

That just about says it.

The main line trains were diverted via Doncaster or Leeds in the 70s or 80s IIRC, as the direct route was plagued by speed restrictions due to pitfalls, and the Selby cutoff made Donny a viable route (there was massive route rationalisation north of Sheffield in that area as well.

As late as the mid 80s there were still 7-8 stoppers a day via Baghill, not very different from the 1950s.

Two things then happened. Sprinterisation and political pressure on BR to cut costs meant that services had to be rationalised (Castleford-Goole was another Yorkshire example, along with Whitby and Settle Jn-Carnforth).

So using two units on lightly loaded trains via Pontefract was a no-no, bearing in mind that every other station on the line was by now served by other, more regular routes (a positive result of Sprinterisation). Sherburn in Elmet hadnt reopened then. And one unit couldn't provide commuter services into both Sheffield and York.

Then Sectorisation meant that Regional Railways NE became the prime user of the line (even though freight was much more important) and had to "pay" for it. Result - I had this on good authority at the time - was that services were timetabled to operate on a notional single line.

A few more minor changes and we ended up at privatisation with 2 offpeak trains a day in marginal time - while by now the Knottingley routes had 2 per hour!

You have to remember too that medium distance commuting in Yorkshire was still relatively rare 25 years ago and towns like Pontefract were fairly self contained.

It's an intriguing thought that there might now be a demand for a commuter service north or south - one slight problem is that Baghill is in the West Yorks Metro area but neither Sheffield or York, so I don't see any great enthusiasm coming from politicians.
 
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yorksrob

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A very good summary of events by 30907.

As a resident of the five towns area, I do wonder whether there wouldn't be more of a demand nowadays for a more useful service from these areas to York, where there is an existing line. I included Normanton and Castleford in this observation.
 

Metrailway

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Prior to the Beeching, this route was a major main line, carrying a large number of cross-country services connecting Southern England with the North East and Scotland usually via the Great Central Main Line. Services include Aberdeen - Penzance and Swansea - Newcastle.
 

yorksrob

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Prior to the Beeching, this route was a major main line, carrying a large number of cross-country services connecting Southern England with the North East and Scotland usually via the Great Central Main Line. Services include Aberdeen - Penzance and Swansea - Newcastle.

That's interesting. Did these services miss out Sheffield on the way to the GWR, or did they reverse at Victoria?
 

edwin_m

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The main line trains were diverted via Doncaster or Leeds in the 70s or 80s IIRC, as the direct route was plagued by speed restrictions due to pitfalls, and the Selby cutoff made Donny a viable route (there was massive route rationalisation north of Sheffield in that area as well.

I think this must have happened in stages.

From when I started using them circa 1980 the primary Sheffield-York route for Cross Country was from Wath Road Junction (Swinton) via Cudworth to Goose Hill Junction (Normanton), then on via Castleford to York. I think those running via Leeds must have come off at Altofts Jn - the curve from Moorthorpe to South Kirby is shown as freight only in the 1980 Baker.

With the completion of the curve from Swinton towards Mexborough in about 1987 the main Cross Country route became via Doncaster, with Leeds trains running via Moorthorpe. Wath Road Junction to Cudworth North was closed completely and Cudworth North to Goose Hill plus Castleford to Burton Salmon closed to passengers. The Sheffield-Leeds local service also started to run via Moorthorpe at some point, reducing the need for Sheffield-York trains since Leeds would have been a more attractive destination at the southern end of the route.

I don't recall Cross Country running via Baghill during the 80s although I imagine it would have been a diversionary route.
 
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Senex

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I think this must have happened in stages.

From when I started using them circa 1980 the primary Sheffield-York route for Cross Country was from Wath Road Junction (Swinton) via Cudworth to Goose Hill Junction (Normanton), then on via Castleford to York. I think those running via Leeds must have come off at Altofts Jn - the curve from Moorthorpe to South Kirby is shown as freight only in the 1980 Baker.

With the completion of the curve from Swinton towards Mexborough in about 1987 the main Cross Country route became via Doncaster, with Leeds trains running via Moorthorpe. Wath Road Junction to Cudworth North was closed completely and Cudworth North to Goose Hill plus Castleford to Burton Salmon closed to passengers. The Sheffield-Leeds local service also started to run via Moorthorpe at some point, reducing the need for Sheffield-York trains since Leeds would have been a more attractive destination at the southern end of the route.

I don't recall Cross Country running via Baghill during the 80s although I imagine it would have been a diversionary route.

There's a very complicated history here. The S&K was built by the Midland and North Eastern companies to provide a fast direct connection between their two systems avoiding the delays on the old main lines, especially in the Normanton area. Leeds and Bradfor trains continued to run via Normanton; York and Newcastle ones moved to the new route. The MS&L muscled in on things (as did the GN) by means of running powers and a new curve at the Swinton end of the line, and when it finally got its cross-country route some three decades later made good use of the facility. And so it continued until October 1968, when Wath Road Jn to Goose Hill Jn was closed to passenger traffic -- not to save track, but because the subsidence slacks had got to a dreadful state and running via Moorthorpe seemed a better option. However, things improved quite dramatically, quite a lot of money was spent, and the line was re-opened in May 1982 not only for Leeds traffic (with some trains turning off to run via Wakefield Kirkgate and Westgate to Leeds) but also for the York traffic via the then-new 60-mph junction at Altofts. This lasted until October 1982 when two things conspired to shift traffic off the North Midland line again. Most important was the desire for rationalisation, and a switch to the S&K would allow Leeds trains to get on to and share the London-Leeds line from South Kirkby Jn and shorten the amount of route needed for the York trains. But there was also a very serious embankment slip near Royston. Eventually funds were authorised to deal with this -- but before work could start the rationalisation ideal kicked in and the job was cancelled.

The full length of the Selby Deviation became available in October 1983, and advantage was taken of the much better route this provided north of Doncaster to move cross-country trains off the S&K to run via Aldwarke Jn and Thrybergh Jn to Mexborough, and thence to Doncaster and York, ginving Doncaster rather than Pontefract a cross-country service. This route was dramatically improved when the Swinton curve towards Mexborough, which had been closed to all traffic in 1965, was restored and re-opened in March 1990.

As a result of the move of the cross-country trains the situation on the S&K was that the southern half saw the Leeds traffic whilst the northern half saw no long-distance traffic any more. As has been said, the timetable was indeed eventually worked out to allow hypothetical working on one line, "saving" Regional Railways the cost of the second line under the rather interesting form of reckoning being developed at that time.

There are still one or two XC trains routed over the full length of the S&K for route-knowledge purposes, and travelling on them shews that this is now potentially a pretty fast route -- but not in my estimation as fast as the Doncaster route. Sheffield to Doncaster can be covered in 19 minutes, given the very unusual luxury of a clear road, and Doncaster to York needs 20 minutes, so with a couple of minutes for a stop and two or three minutes of recovery time the distance could be covered in under 45 minutes. I do not think via the S&K could equal this. For the York trains things could be (but aren 't!) better than they ever have been.

It's very different for the Leeds trains. The present route is not as fast as the North Midland could have been, if the programme of upgrading had been continued as was planned (a new bridge for a straight alignment at Parkgate, straight through lines at Normanton, etc). It was a very well aligned railway that would certainly have been good for 110 if not more. As it is, we get the tedious treck through Wakefield (and the overloading between there and Leeds by local traffic on the inter-city trains). Ah well ....
 

edwin_m

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The full length of the Selby Deviation became available in October 1983, and advantage was taken of the much better route this provided north of Doncaster to move cross-country trains off the S&K to run via Aldwarke Jn and Thrybergh Jn to Mexborough, and thence to Doncaster and York, ginving Doncaster rather than Pontefract a cross-country service. This route was dramatically improved when the Swinton curve towards Mexborough, which had been closed to all traffic in 1965, was restored and re-opened in March 1990.

Yes that rings several bells now you mention it! The route via Cudworth was long gone by 1987 when I started using the service from work in Derby to parents in Newcastle. On occasion it was possible to overtake one of the Cross Country trains via Leeds, by catching one of the Sheffield-York locals and an earlier East Coast service from York.
 

70014IronDuke

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There's a very complicated history here.
....

Well, it [Sheffield to Leeds and York] is a rather complicate area, one which I've never really come close to mastering :)

The S&K was built by the Midland and North Eastern companies to provide a fast direct connection between their two systems avoiding the delays on the old main lines, especially in the Normanton area. ....

OK - so that was the rational. Good to know.

Leeds and Bradfor trains continued to run via Normanton; York and Newcastle ones moved to the new route.
....

And so it continued until October 1968, when Wath Road Jn to Goose Hill Jn was closed to passenger traffic

....


So this was the original North Midland main line, right? From Sheffield to Normanton? (You used to be able to see Wath electric depot, some distance to the west, from this route?)

...........
It's very different for the Leeds trains. The present route is not as fast as the North Midland could have been, if the programme of upgrading had been continued as was planned (a new bridge for a straight alignment at Parkgate, straight through lines at Normanton, etc). It was a very well aligned railway that would certainly have been good for 110 if not more.
....

BUT it's been lifted, I suppose? So no chance of reinstatment?

Thank you for this - and to others - obviously this area had to be rationalised, especially as the mineral traffic disappeared. Interesting to think what might have been had the North Midland line been kept.

xxxxx
 

edwin_m

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Part of the North Midland is still open as the Monk Bretton branch. However I'd say the chance of reinstatement was zero - there's a business park blocking it just north of the former junction at Swinton for example. In the unlikely event that CrossCountry needed to run between Sheffield and York missing out both Leeds and Doncaster, they could use the route via Baghill.
 

Senex

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Part of the North Midland is still open as the Monk Bretton branch. However I'd say the chance of reinstatement was zero - there's a business park blocking it just north of the former junction at Swinton for example. In the unlikely event that CrossCountry needed to run between Sheffield and York missing out both Leeds and Doncaster, they could use the route via Baghill.

Agreed - that business park is unfortunately a pretty massive obstacle. One of several examples of the foolishness of not safeguarding the right-of-way of closed railways for a decent period as is done, I believe, in some other countries.

If XC did want to run fast between York and Sheffield they could run non-stop via Doncaster as they do from time to time for diversionary purposes. And it can already be done in under 40 minutes (as I have experienced), which is better than anything that could be managed via Baghill.

Back to the historical side. It was the S&K that first took Midland locos to York, on goods trains from May 1879. When the passenger service began, it was only Midland trains that ran. The NER began its own Sheffield-York service in 1898 and a Sheffield-Hull via Milford Jn service in 1903.

That leaves the four curves. The Wath East Curve came into use for an MS&L Sheffield to Leeds passenger service in August 1879, along with the Moorthorpe S-W curve. The former began to be used for GC Sheffield-York services in 1899.

The Moorthorpe E-N curve saw a Great Northern Doncaster-York passenger service from July 1879, replacing GN trains that had used the L&Y line north from Shaftholme Jn.

And finally there was the curve between the two Pontefract stations, opened for passenger use in April 1880 for an NER service from Leeds via Kippax and Castleford to Pontefract [Baghill], where a turntable had to be installed before the service could begin.
 

lejog

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It's an intriguing thought that there might now be a demand for a commuter service north or south - one slight problem is that Baghill is in the West Yorks Metro area but neither Sheffield or York, so I don't see any great enthusiasm coming from politicians.

The City of York is now a member (if not a full member) of the West Yorkshire Combined Authority and sits on the Transport Committee.
 
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