Sheffield/Rotherham Tram-Train update

[Class172]

Somebody on high ie Dft needs to give them a kicking, given its meant to be a national pilot project.

Agreed, a number of locations would probably be anticipating the results of this project for their own potential proposals. Looks like they'll never get that feedback at this rate.

 

[talltim]

I think the feedback us, don't bother...

 

[47802]

Of course the cynic might say that originally conceived as a diesel tram on the Penistone line it was presumably seen as a possible partial Pacer replacement option, but now Network Rail have to put knitting up for an Electric Tram-Train and we now have a Pacer Replacement plan for Northern, probably such as the Dft are no longer bothered.

However I would have thought it has good potential.

 

[edwin_m]

Tram-train was never a sensible Pacer replacement. For the same floor area it is more expensive than a standard train, so it needs to offer something extra (going off the railway) to justify the extra cost.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Out of sheer curiosity; what sorts of extensions were proposed for the Supertram network immediately after it opened?

I vaguely recall (more than fifteen years ago, when I first went to Sheffield Uni) talk of two possible lines.

One would have branched south at Castle Square and travelled south along Arundel Gate, past Sheffield Hallam University, towards Furnival Gate, where it would have ducked under the roundabout using the nineteen-sixties underpass. This was preserved long after it was closed to traffic, which might have fuelled ideas that it was being saved for a tram line. From there it would be perfectly aligned to head past Bramall Lane and down the Abbeydale Road towards Dore.

Separately, an additional line was talked about that would continue west along Glossop Road (just before the University of Sheffield stop) to the Royal Hallamshire Hospital. At that point it could have forked right towards Broomhill and Fulwood, or left past the Botanic Gardens towards the Eccleshall Road / Nether Edge / Greystones.

I don't think any of these were ever taken very seriously, as the trams financial returns were pretty poor for much of its early life.

If you want to find out more, I'd suggest posting on the Sheffield Forum - lots of locals there with info on steel city history.

 

[pemma]

Of course the cynic might say that originally conceived as a diesel tram on the Penistone line it was presumably seen as a possible partial Pacer replacement option, but now Network Rail have to put knitting up for an Electric Tram-Train and we now have a Pacer Replacement plan for Northern, probably such as the Dft are no longer bothered.

DfT rejected the option of trailing high floor tram-trains in the Manchester area because they wanted to trial low-floor tram-trains but then suggesting Penistone extending on to the Supertram network seemed to require too much platform lowering for a trial.

As passenger usage increases the viability of an enhanced service using heavy rail increases - the prospect of a tram-train every 12 minutes doesn't sound that exciting if you've already been promised a train every 15 minutes.

 

[brompton rail]

One of the reasons the Penistone line TramTrain idea failed was because no tram manufacturer wanted to build just five diesel trams. There are loads of other reasons too, but if you can't get any trams you ain't got a trial!

 

[Haydn1971]

Out of sheer curiosity; what sorts of extensions were proposed for the Supertram network immediately after it opened?

Several ideas put forward

As mentioned above in the early years (during construction)
- Route to south along Arundel Gate and out along Bramall Lane IIRC
- Glossop Road extension to Hallamshire Hospital

In the late 90s
- Rotherham extension up to Wickersley

In the Sheffield City Region
- Tram to Northern General via Rutland Road
- Tramtrain out to Dore
- Tram to Dore via road
- Barnsley to Doncaster tram or Tramtrain

 

[pemma]

One of the reasons the Penistone line TramTrain idea failed was because no tram manufacturer wanted to build just five diesel trams. There are loads of other reasons too, but if you can't get any trams you ain't got a trial!

Was the plan to order pure diesel tram-trains opposed to diesel-electric ones? I recall TfGM dismissing any option of diesel only tram-trains if they were to go on to the street running sections meaning a Deansgate to Knutsford/Northwich option using diesel tram-trains would be considered but not Victoria/St Peters Square to Knutsford/Northwich.

 

[edwin_m]

Was the plan to order pure diesel tram-trains opposed to diesel-electric ones? I recall TfGM dismissing any option of diesel only tram-trains if they were to go on to the street running sections meaning a Deansgate to Knutsford/Northwich option using diesel tram-trains would be considered but not Victoria/St Peters Square to Knutsford/Northwich.

There are no pure diesel tram-trains unless you count something like the Stadler GTW which isn't really a tram (but might have been better for Penistone if available in UK gauge...). The traction arrangement for a tram-train is a standard-ish 750V tram traction package fed by a DC from a pantograph plus either a diesel generator or a transformer receiving AC from the same pantograph.

 

[Greybeard33]

There are no pure diesel tram-trains unless you count something like the Stadler GTW which isn't really a tram (but might have been better for Penistone if available in UK gauge...). The traction arrangement for a tram-train is a standard-ish 750V tram traction package fed by a DC from a pantograph plus either a diesel generator or a transformer receiving AC from the same pantograph.

As I recall, the main reason given for moving away from the Penistone line pilot scheme was that, at that time, there were no existing electro-diesel tram-train designs with Stage IIIB compliant diesel engines. And the existing electro-diesel designs had the diesel generator on the roof, which could make it difficult to add the Stage IIIB emission control equipment within the British loading gauge.

It would have been too expensive to develop a bespoke new design for such a small fleet.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah the timing didnt work in its favour, falling in a 3 year or so gap between new regs coming in and compliant engines being available.

 

[WillPS]

Some footage of the new tram running over a dummy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHFn1Hm1F2Y

Apparently they were doing this for hours.

 

[Domh245]

I would guess that is testing the obstacle deflectors?

 

[TC60054]

I would guess that is testing the obstacle deflectors?

Went around the Rotherham loop and can report progress on the following:

- There's a big hole around where the Parkgate station is supposed to be, so I assume this is to prepare for track laying in this location and to construct the station
- Piling for the electrification supports is now right up until the above mentioned hole
- The bottom edging slabs on the ramps at Rotherham Central station have now been removed from around Supertram platform height.
- The starting signal towards Sheffield at Rotherham Central has been moved to accomodate the new platform.
- The entirety of the section of the Tinsley line which the tram-train will use has now got electrification masts up ready to be wired.
- Sleepers are going in for the Tinsley chord.

And yet the project is still getting delayed...

 

[TC60054]

399203 was delivered in the early hours of the morning. Photo

 

[Mordac]

399203 was delivered in the early hours of the morning. Photo

Is that the third to arrive?

 

[eastwestdivide]

Is that the third to arrive?

Looks like it - you can find photos of nos 1-3 in the by searching google, but not -4.

 

[TC60054]

yes, it is the third one to be delivered. Photos of the other two on delivery can be found here

 

[Sunbird24]

As of today (Sun 2 Jul) set 204 is still at the factory in Albuixech.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Yesterday (Sunday 3/7), they were offloading ballast and sleepers from a 66-hauled engineering train onto the Parkgate tram stop site.
Also work going on to raise the bridge parapets on Greasbrough Road bridge over the railway.
Little evidence of other recent activity on the section between Booths-Parkgate (I didn't go any further towards Meadowhall).

 

[snowball]

The new issue of Rail magazine (804, p. 24) has ever so slightly more information about the nature of the latest delay (see #173). Quoting a Parliamentary answer, it says "The Department understands that Network Rail has encountered significant issues with the approval of new bespoke electrification equipment needed to operate the tram-train vehicles."

 

[DimTim]

There are numerous lengths of track & sleepers on site. Would the points require installing prior to this track being laid or could the siding be aligned before a connection to existing track is in place?

 

[eastwestdivide]

There's another possession this Sunday, and an engineering train on RTT http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/B25369/2016/07/09/advanced
2225 (Sat) Belmont Down Yard to Rotherham Central (via Brightside).

So I'd guess the pointwork for Parkgate could be coming on that train. Soon find out.

 

[Sunbird24]

399204 left the factory this morning to start its journey to Sheffield.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/...231.1073741958.1192973669&type=1&l=15e100c2ac

 

[talltim]

The new issue of Rail magazine (804, p. 24) has ever so slightly more information about the nature of the latest delay (see #173). Quoting a Parliamentary answer, it says "The Department understands that Network Rail has encountered significant issues with the approval of new bespoke electrification equipment needed to operate the tram-train vehicles."

Sounds a bit suspect to me. Even if there were problems with the electrical side of things, the trackwork and platforms should have already been in for a while.

 

[WatcherZero]

Suggested because they don't have an off the shelf standardised 750v DC overhead design they are in a quagmire of red tape not able to approve any designs for the line until the technology component library itself has been approved.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

No trains serving Rotherham Central this weekend due to engineering works connected with the tram/train scheme. Good thing that Central is on a loop meaning that diversion is fairly simple with bustitution only required between Meadowhall and Swinton via Rotherham.

 

[eastwestdivide]

No trains serving Rotherham Central this weekend due to engineering works connected with the tram/train scheme. Good thing that Central is on a loop meaning that diversion is fairly simple with bustitution only required between Meadowhall and Swinton via Rotherham.

Same situation most Sundays this summer it seems.
• Nothing visible (no new works, no engineering trains) on the Rotherham Central loop this afternoon. The Parkgate tram stop site has track piled up but is not connected to the main line, or ballasted in. No platforms yet, but there are raised-up equipment cabinets at Parkgate itself and just the Rotherham side of the road bridge.
• Rotherham Central platform extensions are not really started in earnest - there's a bit of excavation on the Sheffield-bound side, at the Sheffield end, where they've relocated a signal closer to Sheffield, but that's been done for a month at least.
• Most of the trackside piles for the overhead lines are in the ground between Rotherham Central Junction (by Booths scrapyard) and Parkgate, but no masts, unlike the freight-only section towards Tinsley, where the masts are up as well (but no wiring yet).
• Work has been done on some bridges around Rotherham, with anti-climb coping installed.
• Some groundworks have been done under the M1 viaduct at Tinsley for the linking chord, but no pointwork on the tram side when I looked last week. An additional length of track has been in place for a good few weeks, running parallel to the single track freight line, heading towards the chord (roughly at the former Tinsley East Junction. I can't see from public viewpoints whether that length has been connected to the live running line.

 

[TC60054]

399204 was delivered in the early hours of the morning.

Photo:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/modeltrains33/27790856403/in/dateposted/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/modeltrains33/27790854403/in/photostream/