Sheffield Supertram & Tram Train news

[Lemmy282]

It's easy to blame the council, and I'm not going to totally defend it, but the rot set in in the late 1980's' when budget cuts were first introduced. Capital investment was cut back, so replacement of things like road surfaces, street lighting equipment, vehicles etc. was put on hold, "for a couple of years". Trouble is once that starts it build ups quickly. Simple thing, we had 60000 street light, average life 30 years, so you need to replace 2000 a year to maintain the stock, miss that for a couple of years and you are in a downward spiral. Same with road and footpath replacement, and the funds never came back. Then you are asked to make more savings each year, but there comes a point when the service can no longer function fully, and then you start to offload staff. I had vulnerability notices that I might be made redundant every year for about 10 years! So the council has to outsource its services, and all this led to the idea of the PFI for highways, and that's when I left about 10 years ago.
Since then cuts in government funding have been more severe, and some services, education, social services etc. have to be covered, so other things suffer. You can't blame the council for Supertram's problems, that falls to the combined authority and Stagecoach contract, but we are now seeing what will happen when the PFI's that councils entered into are approaching the end, reduced maintenance and a deteriorating service.

 

[ALEMASTER]

Quite simple, but also representative of an incredibly silly state of affairs!

Why is having a cheaper option if you are loyal to Stagecoach silly? There are Travelmaster tickets that include all public transport regardless of operator too.

 

[edwin_m]

Why is having a cheaper option if you are loyal to Stagecoach silly? There are Travelmaster tickets that include all public transport regardless of operator too.

Really the all-operator tickets should be the same price as the single-operator tickets are now, or at least there should be a zonal system so people travelling further pay more but can use any operator.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Why is having a cheaper option if you are loyal to Stagecoach silly? There are Travelmaster tickets that include all public transport regardless of operator too.

Is it really about "loyalty"? Isn't it more about whether the journey you plan to make can be made on a single operator or not? Even if that means a slightly longer wait if you have to let a First bus go in favour of a Stagecoach one.

 

[ALEMASTER]

Really the all-operator tickets should be the same price as the single-operator tickets are now, or at least there should be a zonal system so people travelling further pay more but can use any operator.

The all operator tickets already exist. They aren't changing. The zones are Sheffield, Rotherham and South Yorkshire.

 

[edwin_m]

The all operator tickets already exist. They aren't changing. The zones are Sheffield, Rotherham and South Yorkshire.

But I assume they are more expensive than a single-operator ticket for a similar area. Deregulated bus operators try to keep people on their own networks by making sure the multi-operator tickets are more expensive. This penalises people who have to travel between areas that aren't served by the same operator, who may end up paying more than people who travel further but happen to be able to make their whole journey with one operator.

 

[ALEMASTER]

But I assume they are more expensive than a single-operator ticket for a similar area. Deregulated bus operators try to keep people on their own networks by making sure the multi-operator tickets are more expensive. This penalises people who have to travel between areas that aren't served by the same operator, who may end up paying more than people who travel further but happen to be able to make their whole journey with one operator.

A single operator ticket will logically offer a discount compared with the multi-operator ticket as they include less services, these cheaper tickets are something passengers benefit from when they can make use of them! You could abolish the single operator deals but the multi operator wouldn't reduce in price, they are already good value.

In the case of Supertram, the multi-operator tickets will not be changing, however the single operator product is just reduced to tram only as Supertram will be the only services the new local authority owned operator will run.

It is worth noting that for travel entirely within Sheffield by bus and tram, the norm is the CityWide ticket and for bus only travel it is the CityBus ticket - these are all operator products. Generally speaking those buying the single operator tickets tend to be for longer bus journeys from outside Sheffield - for example from Barnsley or Rotherham.

So

• if you currently buy tram only tickets, no change
• If you currently buy multi-operator tickets, no change.
• The only losers are those that currently take advantage of Stagecoach combined bus & tram tickets which currently tend to be those travelling from outside of Sheffield on Stagecoach buses then using the tram, those passengers are currently getting an absolute bargain with the Silver MegaRider, a benefit being lost by Stagecoach no longer operating the service.

 

[py_megapixel]

A single operator ticket will logically offer a discount compared with the multi-operator ticket as they include less services,

This isn't true because there is no logic to which services they do and don't include.

Imagine one company ran every bus in the city. Would it make sense for them to offer a ticket valid on "all buses on routes 6, 10, 10A, X17, 25, 53, 53A, 57, 57A, 65, 65A, 86, 88 and 137, as well as about half of buses on routes 1, 52 and 120, and most buses on route 83 but not evenings and Sundays?". No, of course not - passengers would see it as ludicrously confusing, and rightly so. So why do we tolerate it when there are multiple operators?

I could understand different tickets for different zones or something, but this isn't that - it's just a mess.

You could abolish the single operator deals but the multi operator wouldn't reduce in price, they are already good value.

I don't see why they shouldn't. The multi-operator tickets surely are artificially inflated by the fact that the bus companies want to sell their single-operator ones instead. It's not like the passenger's journeys cost less to provide if they are all with the same operator.

 

[dosxuk]

Imagine one company ran every bus in the city. Would it make sense for them to offer a ticket valid on "all buses on routes 6, 10, 10A, X17, 25, 53, 53A, 57, 57A, 65, 65A, 86, 88 and 137, as well as about half of buses on routes 1, 52 and 120, and most buses on route 83 but not evenings and Sundays?". No, of course not - passengers would see it as ludicrously confusing, and rightly so. So why do we tolerate it when there are multiple operators?

Imagine one company ran every train between London and Brighton. Would it make sense for them to offer a ticket valid on "all trains between London and Brighton, except those that don't stop at Redhill or start at Blackfriars"...


I don't think a forum dedicated to rail transport can really comment on other transport's ticketing structures. After all, is a choice between an any-operator or Northern-only Sheffield - Doncaster rail ticket really much different to a any-operator or First-only Sheffield - Doncaster bus ticket? Both have cheaper tickets for those who don't mind being restricted to a single operator, and more expensive ones for those who want the flexibility.

 

[edwin_m]

Imagine one company ran every train between London and Brighton. Would it make sense for them to offer a ticket valid on "all trains between London and Brighton, except those that don't stop at Redhill or start at Blackfriars"...


I don't think a forum dedicated to rail transport can really comment on other transport's ticketing structures. After all, is a choice between an any-operator or Northern-only Sheffield - Doncaster rail ticket really much different to a any-operator or First-only Sheffield - Doncaster bus ticket? Both have cheaper tickets for those who don't mind being restricted to a single operator, and more expensive ones for those who want the flexibility.

Some of these rail single-operator tickets are rather ridiculous, but others may be justified by the trains in question having space available when those run by other operators are crowded. But that can't be true of bus operator tickets that are valid on all that operator's services.

 

[Harpers Tate]

This isn't true because there is no logic to which services they do and don't include.

Imagine one company ran every bus in the city. Would it make sense for them to offer a ticket valid on "all buses on routes 6, 10, 10A, X17, 25, 53, 53A, 57, 57A, 65, 65A, 86, 88 and 137, as well as about half of buses on routes 1, 52 and 120, and most buses on route 83 but not evenings and Sundays?". No, of course not - passengers would see it as ludicrously confusing, and rightly so. So why do we tolerate it when there are multiple operators?

I could understand different tickets for different zones or something, but this isn't that - it's just a mess.


I don't see why they shouldn't. The multi-operator tickets surely are artificially inflated by the fact that the bus companies want to sell their single-operator ones instead. It's not like the passenger's journeys cost less to provide if they are all with the same operator.

I agree. The fact is - as passengers, I doubt many of us care a jot what colour the thing is. And it shouldn't matter. But - as you say - the uninformed passenger buys a day/week/etc pass from a similarly uninformed driver and then "randomly" finds that, if s/he's later from work and turns up at the bus station for their "83" only to be told they have to pay again, a possible (or probable, even) outcome is that they will take to their car in future. And that is totally counter productive to the environment, the industry, and so on.

 

[AndyD4]

Has tram 105 returned to service, and if not does anyone know when its return may be expected? Thanks in anticipation.

Hi Today I spent a few hours on the supertram network looking for 105 for haulage with no luck. Does anybody know if 105 is back in service?

 

[MCR247]

A single operator ticket will logically offer a discount compared with the multi-operator ticket as they include less services, these cheaper tickets are something passengers benefit from when they can make use of them! You could abolish the single operator deals but the multi operator wouldn't reduce in price, they are already good value.

In the case of Supertram, the multi-operator tickets will not be changing, however the single operator product is just reduced to tram only as Supertram will be the only services the new local authority owned operator will run.

It is worth noting that for travel entirely within Sheffield by bus and tram, the norm is the CityWide ticket and for bus only travel it is the CityBus ticket - these are all operator products. Generally speaking those buying the single operator tickets tend to be for longer bus journeys from outside Sheffield - for example from Barnsley or Rotherham.

So

• if you currently buy tram only tickets, no change
• If you currently buy multi-operator tickets, no change.
• The only losers are those that currently take advantage of Stagecoach combined bus & tram tickets which currently tend to be those travelling from outside of Sheffield on Stagecoach buses then using the tram, those passengers are currently getting an absolute bargain with the Silver MegaRider, a benefit being lost by Stagecoach no longer operating the service.

This is interesting to read, as Nottingham initially had a similar set up where Nottingham City Transport’s all day tickets, as well as their Easyrider smartcards were usable on the tram. After a while this was discontinued and I’m sure the reason the council gave was that it was due to competition laws

 

[edwin_m]

This is interesting to read, as Nottingham initially had a similar set up where Nottingham City Transport’s all day tickets, as well as their Easyrider smartcards were usable on the tram. After a while this was discontinued and I’m sure the reason the council gave was that it was due to competition laws

NCT was originally involved with the running of the tram, but the concession was re-let for the Clifton and Toton extensions and is now run by a consortium including TrentBarton. The Competition Commission makes it difficult for operators to co-operate because it is seen as anti-competitive - all operators in a particular area need to be offered the chance of participating in any multi-operator ticket.

To me, this is completely missing the point. The competition for buses and trams is the car, not other bus/tram operators, who are forced to fight over slices of the cake rather than working to make the cake bigger. Anything that makes buses and trams less easy to understand and use is just causing more people to drive instead.

 

[MCR247]

NCT was originally involved with the running of the tram, but the concession was re-let for the Clifton and Toton extensions and is now run by a consortium including TrentBarton. The Competition Commission makes it difficult for operators to co-operate because it is seen as anti-competitive - all operators in a particular area need to be offered the chance of participating in any multi-operator ticket.

The withdrawal of NCT tickets happened at least a few years before the concessions were re-let, but it could’ve been during the early stages of planning.

You’ve also just reminded me, I’m sure when the new consortium took over it was expected that the introduction of mango smartcards to the tram would give daily capping between the two, but again the reason given for the separate caps was due to competition laws I believe.

 

[mike50001]

Hi Today I spent a few hours on the supertram network looking for 105 for haulage with no luck. Does anybody know if 105 is back in service?

Not yet, its still in the depot being refitted after the accident damage

 

[ALEMASTER]

If it helps, here is a list of adult tickets for the tram at present:

Single journey - £2.40 or £2.80 depending on length of journey
Tram Only DayRider - £5.40 (or £5 on the Stagecoach app)
Tram Only MegaRider, 7 day £19.00 (or £17.50 on the Stagecoach website, on the Stagecoach app or from a Travel South Yorkshire vending machine)
Tram Only MegaRider, 28 day £58.00 (on the Stagecoach website or from a Travel South Yorkshire vending machine)

Citywide by Travelmaster - all buses and trams in Sheffield, regardless of operator
1 day £6.30
7 day £23.40 (or £21.60 in advance)
28 day £81.00

South Yorkshire Connect by Travelmaster - all buses and trams in South Yorkshire, regardless of operator
1 day £8.60
7 day £32.20 (or £29.00 in advance)
28 day £108.80

South Yorkshire Connect Plus by Travelmaster - all buses, trams and trains in South Yorkshire, regardless of operator
1 day £10.70
7 day £37.70
28 day £141.50

All the above are unaffected by the change of operator, except tram only tickets will no longer be retailed by the Stagecoach website and app.

Below are Stagecoach products that will no longer include tram from 22 March as a result of the trams no longer being Stagecoach services:

Silver DayRider / Silver MegaRider - all Stagecoach services in South Yorkshire and Chesterfield
1 day £6.20
7 day £21.00
28 day £75.00

Gold DayRider / Gold MegaRider - all Stagecoach services in South & West Yorkshire, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Gainsborough
1 day £8.50
7 day £28.00
28 day £105.50

 

[AndyD4]

Not yet, its still in the depot being refitted after the accident damage

Thanks for your reply.

If it helps, here is a list of adult tickets for the tram at present:

Single journey - £2.40 or £2.80 depending on length of journey
Tram Only DayRider - £5.40 (or £5 on the Stagecoach app)
Tram Only MegaRider, 7 day £19.00 (or £17.50 on the Stagecoach website, on the Stagecoach app or from a Travel South Yorkshire vending machine)
Tram Only MegaRider, 28 day £58.00 (on the Stagecoach website or from a Travel South Yorkshire vending machine)

Citywide by Travelmaster - all buses and trams in Sheffield, regardless of operator
1 day £6.30
7 day £23.40 (or £21.60 in advance)
28 day £81.00

South Yorkshire Connect by Travelmaster - all buses and trams in South Yorkshire, regardless of operator
1 day £8.60
7 day £32.20 (or £29.00 in advance)
28 day £108.80

South Yorkshire Connect Plus by Travelmaster - all buses, trams and trains in South Yorkshire, regardless of operator
1 day £10.70
7 day £37.70
28 day £141.50

All the above are unaffected by the change of operator, except tram only tickets will no longer be retailed by the Stagecoach website and app.

Below are Stagecoach products that will no longer include tram from 22 March as a result of the trams no longer being Stagecoach services:

Silver DayRider / Silver MegaRider - all Stagecoach services in South Yorkshire and Chesterfield
1 day £6.20
7 day £21.00
28 day £75.00

Gold DayRider / Gold MegaRider - all Stagecoach services in South & West Yorkshire, Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Gainsborough
1 day £8.50
7 day £28.00
28 day £105.50

Alemaster Wow that's some useful information

 

[py_megapixel]

To me, this is completely missing the point. The competition for buses and trams is the car, not other bus/tram operators, who are forced to fight over slices of the cake rather than working to make the cake bigger. Anything that makes buses and trams less easy to understand and use is just causing more people to drive instead.

I agree with this entirely. Many places have networks which are effectively monopolies of a single operator, and those always seem to work better than the fragmented ones.

Unlike in other industries, a monopoly does not allow a bus operator to massively inflate prices, because either they are low-quality shoestring-budget operations that cater only to those who cannot afford anything better (I would put both large operators in Sheffield into this category) or because they are trying to encourage modal shift and so if they become significantly more expensive than driving then people will just get back in their cars.

Indeed, in Sheffield, it does seem as if competition keeps the cross-operator fares artificially high, because of the desire to make them more expensive than the single-operator ones.

 

[ALEMASTER]

I agree with this entirely. Many places have networks which are effectively monopolies of a single operator, and those always seem to work better than the fragmented ones.

Unlike in other industries, a monopoly does not allow a bus operator to massively inflate prices, because either they are low-quality shoestring-budget operations that cater only to those who cannot afford anything better (I would put both large operators in Sheffield into this category) or because they are trying to encourage modal shift and so if they become significantly more expensive than driving then people will just get back in their cars.

Indeed, in Sheffield, it does seem as if competition keeps the cross-operator fares artificially high, because of the desire to make them more expensive than the single-operator ones.

actually the other way around - it has kept the single operator ticket prices ludicrously low to the point they were loss making.

The all operator Citywide operator weekly ticket when introduced was cheaper than the First bus weekly ticket had been, First slashed their fares to similar levels to Stagecoach when the bus partnership came in and Citybus/Citywide was introduced.

 

[py_megapixel]

actually the other way around - it has kept the single operator ticket prices ludicrously low to the point they were loss making.

The all operator Citywide operator weekly ticket when introduced was cheaper than the First bus weekly ticket had been, First slashed their fares to similar levels to Stagecoach when the bus partnership came in and Citybus/Citywide was introduced.

If the bus companies were making a loss from the single-operator tickets but a profit from the cross-operator ones then the single-operator ones would have been abolished of their own accord and we wouldn't have this mess at all.

 

[ALEMASTER]

If the bus companies were making a loss from the single-operator tickets but a profit from the cross-operator ones then the single-operator ones would have been abolished of their own accord and we wouldn't have this mess at all.

The Stagecoach bus ticket structure for DayRider and MegaRider nationally is typically offering three levels
- local
- Silver
- Gold
each offering a different sized area of validity.

In Sheffield Stagecoach bus don't actually offer a single operator ticket - passengers are sold the all operator Citybus ticketas the local option. On the trams it is different in that a tram only ticket is available - this didn't used to be the case but passengers complained they felt they were paying for bus services that they didn't use.

The complication in this area though is the South Yorkshire / Derbyshire border and the fact there is no multi operator ticket that crosses the border, this seems to be a glass wall created by local authorities! Stagecoach run buses into Sheffield from places in Derbyshire such as Chesterfield, Dronfield, Eckington and Buxton and the Silver/Gold tickets cater for those passengers as well as being a bargain priced option for travel between Doncaster-Barnsley/Rotherham and Sheffield-Rotherham/Barnsley.

 

[Bryson]

The planned new tram stop at Magna (Templeborough) has now been approved:

New Magna stop for tram-train network approved

The stop at Magna Science and Adventure Centre will be the first addition to the network since 2018.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[GardenRail]

The planned new tram stop at Magna (Templeborough) has now been approved:

New Magna stop for tram-train network approved

The stop at Magna Science and Adventure Centre will be the first addition to the network since 2018.

www.bbc.co.uk

Well that took a long time didn't it. Good news though.

 

[JD2168]

A long while coming, it should have been built when the Tram Train started.

SYMCA have announced that for the first 100 days of Tram operation that tickets will be reduced by 10%, not including single & return tickets bought on Tram or via the App.

 

[D365]

The BBC article seems to suggest only 29 parking spaces to be provided... was a "park and ride" facility not mooted for this new stop?

 

[eastwestdivide]

That BBC article says a ‘further’ 29 car parking spaces, i.e. in addition to what’s already there. I read another item (can’t remember where, sorry) that said the extensive parking at Magna is very under-utilised, so sharing it as a P+R isn’t a problem.

Added 20 March and automerged:
New app, TSY Mobile, for tram and multi mode S Yorks tickets, now on the Apple app store and presumably for Android too.
A bit basic, and I had to change my text size preferences in Settings before I could register.

 

[GardenRail]

Magna Computer Images. Over engineering at it's best. It's a pity we can't trust the public anymore with a simple Red/Green light foot crossing.

 

[syorksdeano]

New app, TSY Mobile, for tram and multi mode S Yorks tickets, now on the Apple app store and presumably for Android too.
A bit basic, and I had to change my text size preferences in Settings before I could register.

I'm assuming with the new app that the travelmaster cards are also getting retired?

Seems stupid spending all that money on the cards just to then get rid of them

 

[Lemmy282]

The first phase of Supertram opened from Meadowhall to Commercial Street on this day 1994, and 30 years later it is handed back to the SYCMA.