Sheffield Supertram & Tram Train news

[GardenRail]

Just in case anyone needs to know, was in the area today and it's still not fixed. Replacement buses observed between Fitzalan Square and Halfway.

May as well shut the network. It's fallen into such disrepair it's going to cost millions to just patch up all the problems. It doesn't do anything a bus can't. As proven these last few days.

 

[py_megapixel]

May as well shut the network. It's fallen into such disrepair it's going to cost millions to just patch up all the problems up. It doesn't do anything a bus can't. As proven these last few days.

Or we could try running it properly...

 

[stuartl]

Travel South Yorkshire are saying it should be fixed by Friday (23rd)

 

[Lemmy282]

Ii know there is a broken rail at Manor Top, but I'm baffled why they havent run a service to Spring Lane and reversed trams there back to the city centre. The crossover and traffic signals were put in for this purpose.

 

[GardenRail]

Ii know there is a broken rail at Manor Top, but I'm baffled why they havent run a service to Spring Lane and reversed trams there back to the city centre. The crossover and traffic signals were put in for this purpose.

Exactly this. Why have the very, very generous infrastructure with all the crossovers etc, then not use it. Surely the trams should be run to as close as they can, to the fault.

 

[py_megapixel]

Exactly this. Why have the very, very generous infrastructure with all the crossovers etc, then not use it. Surely the trams should be run to as close as they can, to the fault.

Ordinarily I agree with you. However, for passengers travelling from beyond the fault into the city, that would enforce a change from bus to tram. We must consider that this would require:

• long buses with plenty of doors - because otherwise passengers alighting from the four wide doors of the trams would all have to cram through one small narrow door on the bus, forming a large queue and causing delays
• some semblance of coordination between First and Stagecoach - to ensure that the buses and trams connected sensibly and continued to do so in the event of delays to either

Neither of those two things exists in Sheffield, so it's probably just easier to run a replacement bus all the way from Halfway to the city. Once that's being done, running the trams beyond the city is presumably seen as duplicating the bus service so it isn't done.

 

[stuartl]

There is already a reasonable bus service no. 120 between Halfway and Sheffield, so they probably thought it wasn't neccessary to do more than they have. Although the 120 doesn't mostly follow the same route as the tram, so those people that need stops on the tram route would have to use the replacement bus.

 

[AY1975]

Ordinarily I agree with you. However, for passengers travelling from beyond the fault into the city, that would enforce a change from bus to tram. We must consider that this would require:

• long buses with plenty of doors - because otherwise passengers alighting from the four wide doors of the trams would all have to cram through one small narrow door on the bus, forming a large queue and causing delays
• some semblance of coordination between First and Stagecoach - to ensure that the buses and trams connected sensibly and continued to do so in the event of delays to either

Neither of those two things exists in Sheffield, so it's probably just easier to run a replacement bus all the way from Halfway to the city. Once that's being done, running the trams beyond the city is presumably seen as duplicating the bus service so it isn't done.

It's interesting that the replacement bus service (numbered as route B1) is being run by First this time whereas on previous occasions they have generally been run by Stagecoach. I would presume that the B1 buses start from Sheffield Interchange, and that passengers on the Blue Route between Malin Bridge and the city centre who want to continue their journeys beyond Sheffield station are being advised to alight at Fitzalan Square and board the B1 bus at the Interchange, rather than stay on the tram at the station and then cut through the station via the footbridge.

 

[py_megapixel]

It's interesting that the replacement bus service (numbered as route B1) is being run by First this time whereas on previous occasions they have generally been run by Stagecoach. I would presume that the B1 buses start from Sheffield Interchange, and that passengers on the Blue Route between Malin Bridge and the city centre who want to continue their journeys beyond Sheffield station are being advised to alight at Fitzalan Square and board the B1 bus at the Interchange, rather than stay on the tram at the station and then cut through the station via the footbridge.

The other day they were starting just east of Fitzalan Square, next to Ponds Forge sports centre. I think the number is BL1 rather than B1, not that this matters hugely.

I agree it's odd that First are running it, but I am sure there is some reason (even if it's just as simple as Stagecoach not having enough buses/driers while First does)

 

[stuartl]

The other day they were starting just east of Fitzalan Square, next to Ponds Forge sports centre. I think the number is BL1 rather than B1, not that this matters hugely.

I agree it's odd that First are running it, but I am sure there is some reason (even if it's just as simple as Stagecoach not having enough buses/driers while First does)

That's right, the timetable for the BL1 shows the route as starting at Fitzalan square. I saw one parked at the bus stop on commercial street opposite the tram stop yesterday morning.

 

[ALEMASTER]

Ii know there is a broken rail at Manor Top, but I'm baffled why they havent run a service to Spring Lane and reversed trams there back to the city centre. The crossover and traffic signals were put in for this purpose.

Spring Lane crossover was decommissioned a few years ago.

It's interesting that the replacement bus service (numbered as route B1) is being run by First this time whereas on previous occasions they have generally been run by Stagecoach. I would presume that the B1 buses start from Sheffield Interchange, and that passengers on the Blue Route between Malin Bridge and the city centre who want to continue their journeys beyond Sheffield station are being advised to alight at Fitzalan Square and board the B1 bus at the Interchange, rather than stay on the tram at the station and then cut through the station via the footbridge.

The South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority (SYMCA) put out the tender for the tram replacement bus services, that has been the case since Covid. On this occasion First won the contract. SYMCA pay for the buses to run and keep the revenue taken on board. Separately Supertram arranges ticket acceptance on local bus services.

The replacement bus service BL1 runs from adjacent to Fitzalan Square tram stop for interchange with Blue route trams from Malin Bridge and follow the tram route as close as possible to Halfway. Timetable at https://www.travelsouthyorkshire.com/en-gb/timetabledetails/183a9076-ed80-4d66-969e-db76177a8af6

Stagecoach have said that they will be handing operation over on March 22nd and tickets bought before will not be accepted from that date.

Changes to tickets including travel on Supertram from 22nd March

Find details of upcoming changes to Stagecoach fares in South Yorkshire and North Derbyshire.

www.stagecoachbus.com

I always thought it was perhaps subconsciously influenced by the name of the band ‘Supertramp’.

A lot of issues have been caused by the South Yorkshire Mayor Oliver Coppard not making any announcements about his new publicly owned company that takes over as the tram operator when the Stagecoach concession ends on 21 March.

Stagecoach have undertaken their customer information campaign as those buying Stagecoach only monthly tickets will need to know what alternative ticket to buy if they want to continue travelling by tram with the new operator - the change is little over a month away now.

In reality the only changes are Stagecoach bus tickets that currently include tram won't anymore as it won't be a Stagecoach service. Most of those passengers can buy South Yorkshire Travelmaster products instead, they are valid on all operators services.

The only thing other passengers will notice from 22 March is that it will be a different app selling tickets and conductors will have a new ticket machine (assuming the Mayor isn't about to announce anything that isn't publicly known yet!)

 

[syorksdeano]

Spring Lane crossover was decommissioned a few years ago.

I sometimes can't understand Sheffield.

I understand that the Spring Lane crossover was decommissioned, but why have they replaced the traffic lights at the cross over if its never going to operate?

 

[GardenRail]

I sometimes can't understand Sheffield.

I understand that the Spring Lane crossover was decommissioned, but why have they replaced the traffic lights at the cross over if its never going to operate?

Another example of the dire need the network is in. Who makes these decisions. Something needs to happen with the tram network in Sheffield, and quick. Too many sticky plasters, and not enough maintaining and general upkeep.
Infrastructure out of use, the road surface on the road sections is falling to bits, rubbish, grafiti, vegetation out of control, nearly every shelter is falling to bits out of the city.

No wonder governments won't take new networks serious, if these are the sorts of examples they have to showcase. Also, how can the network ever be extended when there is so much wrong and needs rectifying with the existing set-up.

This is why buses continue to win with local councils, and government. No wonder Leeds won't make such a bold move.

I guess the whole issue, is in keeping with what the city centre has become. The two suit each other.

 

[Lemmy282]

I understand that the Spring Lane crossover was decommissioned.

I wasn't aware of that, thanks. I guess they have left the traffic signals there as it would cost money to remove them.
With the contract running out Stagecoach will have done the minimum amount of maintenance to the infrastructure. I would be interested to know what condition the concrete slab the tracks are laid in is in, I've seen some surface cracks, but what is it like underneath.
I would also guess that the overhead will be in need of replacement, the traction poles are over thirty years old, and don't last forever. Looking back at first generation tramways, a lot had relatively short lives as when rail and overhead needed replacement they closed the system and moved over to buses.
I hope things will improve under the new regime, I was riding on the first tram when it opened, and I don't want to be riding on the last one!

 

[GardenRail]

I wasn't aware of that, thanks. I guess they have left the traffic signals there as it would cost money to remove them.
With the contract running out Stagecoach will have done the minimum amount of maintenance to the infrastructure. I would be interested to know what condition the concrete slab the tracks are laid in is in, I've seen some surface cracks, but what is it like underneath.
I would also guess that the overhead will be in need of replacement, the traction poles are over thirty years old, and don't last forever. Looking back at first generation tramways, a lot had relatively short lives as when rail and overhead needed replacement they closed the system and moved over to buses.
I hope things will improve under the new regime, I was riding on the first tram when it opened, and I don't want to be riding on the last one!

Makes you wonder where SYPTE or whatever they're called these days have been. Why haven't they been banging on at Stagecoach for letting the system collapse. SYPTE own it for pity sake.

 

[py_megapixel]

No wonder governments won't take new networks serious, if these are the sorts of examples they have to showcase. Also, how can the network ever be extended when there is so much wrong and needs rectifying with the existing set-up.

The stops and vehicles need a fresh coat of paint, maintenance and renewal needs to be carried out to improve reliability, and the system needs to be properly integrated with the buses.

The first two of those things will take time and money but are not rocket science. The third is an administrative exercise that could be carried out overnight, or near to it, if the will existed. It's bad, but I certainly don't think it's a lost cause as you seem to be making out.

This is why buses continue to win with local councils, and government. No wonder Leeds won't make such a bold move.

If anyone thinks the buses are "winning" in Sheffield they are severely mistaken. They are as bad as the trams, probably worse.

Public transport as a whole in Sheffield is an utter embarrassment to the city, and those responsible (that being the management, not the frontline staff, of First, Stagecoach and Travel South Yorkshire) should be ashamed of it.

Makes you wonder where SYPTE or whatever they're called these days have been. Why haven't they been banging on at Stagecoach for letting the system collapse. SYPTE own it for pity sake.

I doubt there is much they can do if Stagecoach is compliant with whatever contractual agreements they have to maintain it.

 

[syorksdeano]

I wasn't aware of that, thanks. I guess they have left the traffic signals there as it would cost money to remove them.

They replaced the lights with the new LED ones a few months ago knowing full well that section is decommissioned

 

[edwin_m]

I doubt there is much they can do if Stagecoach is compliant with whatever contractual agreements they have to maintain it.

This type of arrangement to operate and maintain for a certain period usually includes clauses to return the assets in a reasonable state. However, seeing as SYPTE were desperate for Stagecoach to take it off their hands, they may not have been able to insist on anything like that in this case.

 

[Lemmy282]

Going back to when the system was first thought of, it was always designed go be an integrated system with bus routes feeding into the tram system. This was back in the early 80's, then in the mid 80's Maggie de- regulated the buses and the whole thing became for a free for all. The proposals for the tram were already well established by that point, so by the time it was built the whole transport landscape had changed.

 

[Fadacious]

Stagecoach have said that they will be handing operation over on March 22nd and tickets bought before will not be accepted from that date.

Changes to tickets including travel on Supertram from 22nd March

Find details of upcoming changes to Stagecoach fares in South Yorkshire and North Derbyshire.

www.stagecoachbus.com

I always thought it was perhaps subconsciously influenced by the name of the band ‘Supertramp’.

Has this affected ENCTS passes outside of South Yorkshire?

 

[Harpers Tate]

I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall that the network itself was never Stagecoach's to manage. Their responsibility ended with the operation of the service, possibly including the vehicles, but never the infrastructure.

 

[py_megapixel]

I might be mistaken, but I seem to recall that the network itself was never Stagecoach's to manage. Their responsibility ended with the operation of the service, possibly including the vehicles, but never the infrastructure.

I'm sure I saw a job ad on the Stagecoach website for overhead line technicians a while back

 

[Lemmy282]

The infrastructure remains the property of the PTE, but Stagecoach had the contract to maintain it. Depending on how that contract was written, it could be that Stsgecoach have done the minimum required to keep the system going, so maybe it should be the PTE that are at fault.

 

[ALEMASTER]

I'll get the pedantry out the way first - SYPTE doesn't exist, it has been replaced with SYMCA (South Yorkshire Mayoral Combined Authority).

To put simply, SYMCA own all the infrastructure and fleet and therefore they are responsible for financing any renewals. Stagecoach as the company holding the operating concession are responsible for routine maintenance.

The contract was based around the expected 30 year life of the system with Stagecoach undertaking a mid life refresh of the fleet and the contract ending as the system was due for renewal.

Actually the rail replacement programme for the embedded rail sections was started by SYPTE (as it was then) a few years ago so some of the investment is already underway. There has also been investment in upgraded shelters at selected stops such as Shalesmoor, Attercliffe and Arena funded by local developers and of course the electronic timetable displays at tram stops is an investment made in the last 10 years or so. There has also been investment in the Tram Train service and additional fleet, along with depot modifications to accommodate them.

Stagecoach's contract ends on 21 March and SYMCA, led by the elected mayor, made the decision not to award another operating concession but to have a new company owned at arms length by themselves to operate the system. To be fair this will probably keep things much simpler as there will be much disruption in the coming years caused by all the system renewals planned.

As for ticketing, its quite simple that Stagecoach only products don't include buses or trams that aren't run by Stagecoach, that's exactly the same as when a tendered bus route changes operator! No other changes to ticketing have been announced. Passengers travelling within South Yorkshire wanting to combine bus and tram can still buy tickets from the Travelmaster range that are valid on all operators - CityWide includes all buses and trams in Sheffield or SY Connect includes all buses and trams in South Yorkshire. There's also a SY Connect+ that includes trains.

 

[py_megapixel]

As for ticketing, its quite simple that Stagecoach only products don't include buses or trams that aren't run by Stagecoach

Quite simple, but also representative of an incredibly silly state of affairs!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

We must consider that this would require:

• long buses with plenty of doors - because otherwise passengers alighting from the four wide doors of the trams would all have to cram through one small narrow door on the bus, forming a large queue and causing delays

Why would that be "required"? It would be ideal, sure... but Rail Replacement Buses run all over the country with fewer doors than the train they're replacing. Bustitution is always going to be a bit of a pain in the proverbial. Things like numbers of doors are seldom a consideration, people just get off the train or tram, walk over to where the bus picks up, and queue to get on the bus.

 

[D365]

The only chance of a Supertram extension was when HS2 was coming to SY.

EDIT: I’ve missed all the posts in between

 

[craigybagel]

I noticed on my last visit 4 years ago the top speed on the network (aside from the tram train) had been reduced from 50mph to 40mph, presumably due to the poor condition of the network mentioned by others. Is that still the situation now, and if so are there any plans to restore the higher speeds?

 

[JD2168]

Trams have now resumed full routes as the repair work has been completed. The B1 bus is no longer operational & ticket acceptance is no longer occurring.

 

[russellg]

Except those are generally local council responsibilities (and mainly the infamous farmed out Amey contract). Also expanding the Supertram Network will require central government funding (good luck getting that, even from the magic money pot "released" from HS2). And also he was only elected in 2022 when the urban decline of the City has been going on for a lot longer (and again, the schemes to reverse that are local council driven, not SYMCA).

You're currently gunning at the wrong organisation, when a lot of those problems are caused by central government underfunding local authorities (I can't find it now but I read the other day that Sheff CC now has effectively 50% of its spending power per person compared to 2010), or people not voting for responsible councillors to run the organisation effectively. The argument for expanding the Supertram is one that needs to happen in Whitehall primarily, which is the job of the Mayor (to advocate to central government and business partners the interests of the region), however until we see a change of government his petitions are likely to fall on deaf ears.

Sheffield has been a hole for decades, and that's solely down to the mendacious incompetence of SCC.