Shipley to Leeds via Bradford

[ASharpe]

I traveled today from Shipley to Bradford Forster Square using my Shipley to Leeds weekly season ticket on a smart card.

The barriers at Bradford gave error 57 and rather than being let through as usual the staff all insisted my ticket wasn't valid and I had no choice but to buy a single to Shipley to Bradford.

I'm near enough 100% certain my ticket is valid on the route I took.

Any tips on getting a refund and the barriers programmed correctly so i dont have to deal with the staff in future?

Also I'm planning on going back the same way, guessing I'm going to be made to pay for another single on the way back.

If it makes any difference I'm not planning on going all the way to leeds Today.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Barrier code '57' seems to suggest that the location is not covered by a period or pre-paid ticket.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I traveled today from Shipley to Bradford Forster Square using my Shipley to Leeds weekly season ticket on a smart card.

The barriers at Bradford gave error 57 and rather than being let through as usual the staff all insisted my ticket wasn't valid and I had no choice but to buy a single to Shipley to Bradford.

I'm near enough 100% certain my ticket is valid on the route I took.

Any tips on getting a refund and the barriers programmed correctly so i dont have to deal with the staff in future?

Also I'm planning on going back the same way, guessing I'm going to be made to pay for another single on the way back.

If it makes any difference I'm not planning on going all the way to leeds Today.

A ticket from Shipley to Leeds is not valid via Bradford.

Usind the Routeing Guide we can see that Shipley and Leeds both share a common routeing point - Leeds.

If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest route or a route which is longer by no more than 3 miles. Also permitted is the route followed by direct trains to and from the common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains, but that doesn't apply in this case.

So the permitted routes are direct trains from Shipley to Leeds which is the shortest route, or other routes which are not more than 3 miles longer.

 

[ASharpe]

So the permitted routes are direct trains from Shipley to Leeds which is the shortest route, or other routes which are not more than 3 miles longer

Pretty sure it's less than 3 miles more when I checked on Railmiles a while ago. Not sure about in the timetable.

Journey planners offer it.

 

[SickyNicky]

I agree. Shipley to Leeds via the two Bradford stations (with a walk) is less than 3 miles over the shortest route, so is Permitted.

OUTWARD JOURNEY Shipley (Yorks) to Leeds.
Mileage 12.25 (Shortest possible 10.72)
Permitted: Within 3 miles of shortest route.

 

[Watershed]

It's a valid route - by virtue of the fact that it's within 3 miles of the shortest route, and also the fact that it's offered as a valid route on a through ticket by NRE:


Unfortunately barrier staff aren't trained on principles such as the Routeing Guide or the NRCoT. So you can expect problems anytime you try to use a ticket which is rejected by the barriers (because they have to be manually programmed to allow tickets that aren't to/from the station where they're located), and whose validity isn't 100% obvious.

Now, you could write to Northern to reclaim the additional fare you were wrongly charged, and to ask them to retrain the staff on the validity of this particular route. But I'd anticipate a nonsensical response claiming that black is white, and certainly not anything favourable. You are likely to have to escalate the issue up quite a few levels before you get anything sensible out of them.

There's also the fact that a negative easement is quite likely to be added by the RDG now that you have pointed out this validity on the forum. So even if you do eventually get the money you're owed from Northern, a negative easement could be added next week and stop you from ever doing this route again...

A ticket from Shipley to Leeds is not valid via Bradford.

Usind the Routeing Guide we can see that Shipley and Leeds both share a common routeing point - Leeds.

If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest route or a route which is longer by no more than 3 miles. Also permitted is the route followed by direct trains to and from the common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains, but that doesn't apply in this case.

So the permitted routes are direct trains from Shipley to Leeds which is the shortest route, or other routes which are not more than 3 miles longer.

Going via Bradford is no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route.

 

[ASharpe]

Just checked and they charge an extra 20p a week for a season or a shocking 80p for a anytime day return from Bradford to Leeds vs Shipley to Leeds.

Are there many examples of negative easements (hate that phrase) against the 3 mile rule?

I know they are not enforceable under the absolute shortest route rule in the NRCOC but given the allowances in the data and then routing engines could they even stop showing this as a valid route?

 

[Watershed]

Just checked and they charge an extra 20p a week for a season or a shocking 80p for a anytime day return from Bradford to Leeds vs Shipley to Leeds.

Not a big difference, as you say. But enough that they'll no doubt consider it 'necessary'.

Are there many examples of negative easements (hate that phrase) against the 3 mile rule?

Quite a lot. Have a gander at the number of "circuitous route" easements. Indeed an easement was introduced to prevent Mirfield to Leeds tickets from being valid via Sowerby Bridge - only a few days after someone made a thread about that!

I know they are not enforceable under the absolute shortest route rule in the NRCOC but given the allowances in the data and then routing engines could they even stop showing this as a valid route?

Yes. Any validity that relies on the Routeing Guide can be subject to an easement. The NRCoT doesn't spell out the 3 mile rule so a negative easement can be added and would prevent journey planners from offering this as a valid route.

 

[ASharpe]

Indeed an easement was introduced to prevent Mirfield to Leeds tickets from being valid via Sowerby Bridge - only a few days after someone made a thread about that!

I remember that thread now, seemed a perfectly reasonable route to me at the time.

Back then I was far more brash in my use of "interesting" tickets. Having money in my pocket and a child seems to have tempered that part of me. All my challenging conversations happen at work and I choose to avoid them on a weekend.

I was going to buy an annual in September (and I'm off the next two weeks) but might be tempted to lock in this route for me for a year next week and make use of it out of spite.

 

[Watershed]

I remember that thread now, seemed a perfectly reasonable route to me at the time.

Back then I was far more brash in my use of "interesting" tickets. Having money in my pocket and a child seems to have tempered that part of me. All my challenging conversations happen at work and I choose to avoid them on a weekend.

I was going to buy an annual in September (and I'm off the next two weeks) but might be tempted to lock in this route for me for a year next week and make use of it out of spite.

You might need to be quicker than that. You may recall that in the linked thread @TUC missed out on the validity via Sowerby Bridge for the sake of a few days' delay...!

 

[ASharpe]

No bother on the return - let through straight away when I told them what ticket I had. I asked if it was valid and told it was a grey area.

 

[yorkie]

It is valid that way.

Yes in theory (if the route isn't a protected route) they can introduce a 'negative easement' which would change this.

A negative easement cannot affect the shortest route by rail, but it can affect a route that is valid due to being within 3 miles of the shortest route.

I wouldn't trust the gateline staff at Northern stations to open a can of sardines that was already open, let alone determine if a ticket is valid or not. I doubt they have had any training in concepts such as the 3 mile rule. I also doubt they understand the concept of checking on a journey planner to see if the route is offered. The chance of them understanding their obligations under consumer and contract laws is very slim.

The training provided to such staff is wholly inadequate; it would not be accepted in any other industry or any workplace I've ever worked at. But your experience is in line with my (low) expectations of the rail industry, especially Northern.

 

[ServerHoster]

I wouldn't trust the gateline staff at Northern stations to open a can of sardines that was already open, let alone determine if a ticket is valid or not.

The chance of them understanding their obligations under consumer and contract laws is very slim.

Completely true. The other day I went to Manchester Victoria, saw my train from Piccadilly back home was cancelled so I said to the guy "hi, can you let me through the gate please, I need this for a Delay Repay - if I put my ticket in the gate, it'll take the ticket" (because I was split ticketing, one of the tickets was to Manchester Stns). The response I got was "what's a delay repay, I don't understand?" I said "When the train's late, you get some money back." He said "Well I can't give you any money!", then I said "No I'm doing it online" then he reluctantly opened the gate for me.

 

[Dai Corner]

Yes in theory (if the route isn't a protected route) they can introduce a 'negative easement' which would change this.

I haven't heard of the term 'protected route' . Could you explain it please?

 

[yorkie]

As a general principle the routes permitted back in 1996 are protected/regulated but I am not sure if/where this is documented.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Completely true. The other day I went to Manchester Victoria, saw my train from Piccadilly back home was cancelled so I said to the guy "hi, can you let me through the gate please, I need this for a Delay Repay - if I put my ticket in the gate, it'll take the ticket" (because I was split ticketing, one of the tickets was to Manchester Stns). The response I got was "what's a delay repay, I don't understand?" I said "When the train's late, you get some money back." He said "Well I can't give you any money!", then I said "No I'm doing it online" then he reluctantly opened the gate for me.

Like so many public-facing roles these days, the attention paid to listening comprehension in training is minimal, if there's any at all.

 

[Haywain]

As a general principle the routes permitted back in 1996 are protected/regulated but I am not sure if/where this is documented.

With the DfT now be in charge this sounds like an outdated concept.

 

[Watershed]

I haven't heard of the term 'protected route' . Could you explain it please?

The Routeing Guide was supposed to encompass all reasonable routes. It may have started out that way, but as TOCs' fare policies diverged more and more, anomalies started opening up and this created a perceived "need" to restrict routes.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Pretty sure it's less than 3 miles more when I checked on Railmiles a while ago. Not sure about in the timetable.

Journey planners offer it.

It's a valid route - by virtue of the fact that it's within 3 miles of the shortest route, and also the fact that it's offered as a valid route on a through ticket by NRE:
View attachment 117045

Unfortunately barrier staff aren't trained on principles such as the Routeing Guide or the NRCoT. So you can expect problems anytime you try to use a ticket which is rejected by the barriers (because they have to be manually programmed to allow tickets that aren't to/from the station where they're located), and whose validity isn't 100% obvious.

Now, you could write to Northern to reclaim the additional fare you were wrongly charged, and to ask them to retrain the staff on the validity of this particular route. But I'd anticipate a nonsensical response claiming that black is white, and certainly not anything favourable. You are likely to have to escalate the issue up quite a few levels before you get anything sensible out of them.

There's also the fact that a negative easement is quite likely to be added by the RDG now that you have pointed out this validity on the forum. So even if you do eventually get the money you're owed from Northern, a negative easement could be added next week and stop you from ever doing this route again...


Going via Bradford is no more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route.

I stand corrected, thanks. I must admit I hadn't checked the mileage as I didn't have access to check it at the time, and had assumed - incorrectly- that it was at least more than 3 miles longer.

As a matter of clarification, how does the 3 mile rule stand up when considered in relation to NRCOT 13.4, which refers to travelling beyond the destination printed on your ticket? Could it be argued that Bradford (in this case Forster Square) is beyond the destination printed on the ticket?

It is academic of course as the journey planners offer it, but the above question still stands out of interest- and the journey planners aren't always correct either (although they must be accepted even when they aren't).

 

[SickyNicky]

I stand corrected, thanks. I must admit I hadn't checked the mileage as I didn't have access to check it at the time, and had assumed - incorrectly- that it was at least more than 3 miles longer.

As a matter of clarification, how does the 3 mile rule stand up when considered in relation to NRCOT 13.4, which refers to travelling beyond the destination printed on your ticket? Could it be argued that Bradford (in this case Forster Square) is beyond the destination printed on the ticket?

It is academic of course as the journey planners offer it, but the above question still stands out of interest- and the journey planners aren't always correct either (although they must be accepted even when they aren't).

The OP is travelling on a season ticket. This allows unlimited journeys in either direction. So travelling from Leeds to Bradford Forster Square is simply a journey from Leeds to Shipley direct, plus another journey from Shipley to Leeds via Bradford, with a walk between the two Bradford stations.

edited for clarity

 

[yorkie]

As a matter of clarification, how does the 3 mile rule stand up when considered in relation to NRCOT 13.4, which refers to travelling beyond the destination printed on your ticket? Could it be argued that Bradford (in this case Forster Square) is beyond the destination printed on the ticket?

As long as it's valid that way it is fine as it's no different to (say) someone having a Season ticket from Leeds to Poppleton and travelling "beyond" Poppleton to Cattal (or even someone doing that on a return ticket, i.e. immediately commencing their return journey as soon as the outward is completed)

 

[Watershed]

Condition 13.4 essentially just restates section 103 of the Railway Consolidation Clauses Act 1845 viz the consequences of staying on past a call at your destination.

Although going via Bradford is certainly more circuitous than taking a direct train, it is within 3 miles of the shortest route and does not involve passing through the destination station. Accordingly it is permitted.

What would certainly be more problematic would be a route doubling back between Shipley and Bradford FQ, i.e. avoiding Bradford Interchange. This is within 3 miles of the shortest route, but on a single/return ticket it would be rather problematic on the way to Shipley, as all trains from Leeds to Bradford FQ stop at Shipley and thus the ticket would have expired upon arrival there the first time.

On a season ticket it's not really an issue as the unlimited validity means you could switch between making a 'journey to Shipley' between Leeds and Shipley, a 'journey to Leeds' between Shipley and Bradford FQ, and another 'journey to Shipley' between Bradford and Shipley.

Fortunately this is all rather a moot point as the route via Bradford Interchange is available.

 

[30907]

What would certainly be more problematic would be a route doubling back between Shipley and Bradford FQ, i.e. avoiding Bradford Interchange. This is within 3 miles of the shortest route,

I think you have to count the return mileage of the double-back which is 5.5 according to the public timetable

Anyway, a moot point, as you say.

 

[Kite159]

Is it bad to think that the rail industry will probably now introduce a negative easement to forbid passengers from Shipley heading towards Leeds from going via the Bradford stations?

 

[Watershed]

I think you have to count the return mileage of the double-back which is 5.5 according to the public timetable

Anyway, a moot point, as you say.

Right you are! My apologies.