Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby Bridge

Status
Not open for further replies.

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
2,305
Can someone please advise whether Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby Bridge is a permitted route? The journey planners say yes, but i am left wondering whether there is a doubling back element in the Sowerby Bridge area so wanted to check.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

185143

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2013
Messages
3,197
Crossover:2150306 said:
Can't comment on the validity, but I can certainly see such ticket use getting some interested glances from a guard
as can I. Without checking the specific fare, a West Yorkshire Train DayRover might be worthwhile? It will be more expensive, but you won't have any issues with it. (I'm assuming you're travelling off peak?)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
185143:2150339 said:
Crossover:2150306 said:
Can't comment on the validity, but I can certainly see such ticket use getting some interested glances from a guard
as can I. Without checking the specific fare, a West Yorkshire Train DayRover might be worthwhile? It will be more expensive, but you won't have any issues with it. (I'm assuming you're travelling off peak?)
Just looked and the Mirfield-Leeds is 70p cheaper than SOW-LDS so I'd expect a strange glance tbh.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
49,090
Location
Yorkshire
Can someone please advise whether Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby Bridge is a permitted route? The journey planners say yes, but i am left wondering whether there is a doubling back element in the Sowerby Bridge area so wanted to check.
There is no station between Sowerby Bridge and the junction, so there is no doubling back.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Events Co-ordinator
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
15,062
Location
Manchester
Can't comment on the validity, but I can certainly see such ticket use getting some interested glances from a guard
Ticket checks in the area are not quite as common as perhaps they could be, nor are they particularly thorough. You'd be unlucky if you got questioned on it and very unlucky if it were rejected.

For example, I've used a ticket from Horsforth to Brighouse via all of Shipley, Sowerby Bridge and Huddersfield and none have resulted in strange looks. Guards in the area have even been known to advise doubling back via Hebden Bridge / Dewsbury for various journey combinations where it's quicker.
 

strowger

Member
Joined
2 Sep 2013
Messages
184
I agree that Northern guards on this route are nearly all great and have a sensible and pragmatic approach to ticketing issues so long as a ticket is held and the attitude test is not failed. They are also fairly relaxed about checking tickets on trains where the majority of pax are heading for Leeds or Bradford (which have barriers).

If you board the train at Mirfield, heading for Sowerby Bridge, and ask to buy a Mirfield to Leeds ticket, you might have trouble.

While you could no doubt eventually win an argument with Northern by escalating appropriately, part of me thinks it's a bit sad to do something that endagers the [sensible-]customer-friendly approach which operates at present.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Mirfield is in WY Metro zone 3.

Sowerby Bridge is in zone 5.

I am extremely unsure what the legal position would be regarding use of a Z1-3 Metrocard to travel from Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby Bridge.

The same issue may occur with Brighouse (zone 4) to Leeds, also possible via Sowerby Bridge (in zone 5).

The metrocard terms and conditions are somewhat vague but state a ticket must be valid for "the area within which travel is intended".

Comments gratefully received...!
 

Deerfold

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
10,456
Location
Yorkshire
Mirfield is in WY Metro zone 3.

Sowerby Bridge is in zone 5.

I am extremely unsure what the legal position would be regarding use of a Z1-3 Metrocard to travel from Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby Bridge.

The same issue may occur with Brighouse (zone 4) to Leeds, also possible via Sowerby Bridge (in zone 5).

The metrocard terms and conditions are somewhat vague but state a ticket must be valid for "the area within which travel is intended".

Comments gratefully received...!
With a Metrocard I think it's fairly clear your card has to cover all the zones you travel through (in the absence of any other ticket) so a Z1-3 ticket would not cover the journey.

With a point-to-point ticket it may well be valid.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
49,090
Location
Yorkshire

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
2,305
Can't comment on the validity, but I can certainly see such ticket use getting some interested glances from a guard
Ticket checks in the area are not quite as common as perhaps they could be, nor are they particularly thorough. You'd be unlucky if you got questioned on it and very unlucky if it were rejected.
Although of course it shouldn't be be a matter of being 'lucky'.Ticket validity should never be about trying to get away with something questionable.It's about, if it's a permitted route, then the ticket is valid.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Events Co-ordinator
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
15,062
Location
Manchester
Although of course it shouldn't be be a matter of being 'lucky'.Ticket validity should never be about trying to get away with something questionable.It's about, if it's a permitted route, then the ticket is valid.
And it is valid, because that is a permitted route.

But I'm not sure how you can expect all conductors in the area to know that - how many have even heard of the Routeing Guide?
 

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
2,305
And it is valid, because that is a permitted route.

But I'm not sure how you can expect all conductors in the area to know that - how many have even heard of the Routeing Guide?
To know every aspect of the Routing Guide inside out? No. But to be aware of the Routing Guide and of the need to consult it when issues arise, together with being reasonably aware of permitted routes for the services they most regularly work on? Yes, absolutely. It is a core part of the knowledge needed for the job.
 
Last edited:

Starmill

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Events Co-ordinator
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
15,062
Location
Manchester
To know every sspect of the Routing Guide inside out? No. But to be aware of the Routing Guide and of the need to consult it when issues arise, together with being reasonably aware of permitted routes for the services tthey most regularly work on? Yes, absolutely. It is a core part of the knowledge needed for the job.
That's definitely not what the reality is I'm afraid.
 

Deerfold

Established Member
Joined
26 Nov 2009
Messages
10,456
Location
Yorkshire
To know every aspect of the Routing Guide inside out? No. But to be aware of the Routing Guide and of the need to consult it when issues arise, together with being reasonably aware of permitted routes for the services they most regularly work on? Yes, absolutely. It is a core part of the knowledge needed for the job.
It is indeed. It's a shame that it seems that some TOCs neglect to mention it in their training.

Most of the guards on here who know about it seem to have found out here or from other outside-of-work sources.
 

Solent&Wessex

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2009
Messages
2,351
To know every aspect of the Routing Guide inside out? No. But to be aware of the Routing Guide and of the need to consult it when issues arise, together with being reasonably aware of permitted routes for the services they most regularly work on? Yes, absolutely. It is a core part of the knowledge needed for the job.
For which on train staff receive absolutely no training or information about at all. Indeed when I mention the routeing guide to my colleagues I get blank stares and "what is that?" "I've never heard of that" type questions from anyone starting in the past 5 - 10 years or so, or "I thought that didn't exist anymore" "The last one I saw was years ago" from staff who have been around longer and remember the printed copies we used to be issued with many years ago.
 

Solent&Wessex

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2009
Messages
2,351
Actually, I am not quite sure where you get that it is valid via Sowerby Bridge.

Mirfield is a Huddersfield Group Routeing Point Member.

Huddersfield to Leeds is valid on LY or YT.

YT is valid only direct via Dewsbury.

LY shows the route from Mirfield to Huddersfield, and also from Huddersfield to Halifax, but does not show the route direct from Mirfield to Sowerby Bridge via Brighouse taken by the direct trains between Mirfield and Sowerby Bridge. Thus, if following the lines on map LY you will be doubling back via Deighton and Halifax if you go via Sowerby Bridge. See attached.

So no, I would say going via Sowerby Bridge is NOT valid.
 

Attachments

strowger

Member
Joined
2 Sep 2013
Messages
184
Looks fine to me on map LY. http://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps

To double back you would need to travel though the same station twice, so changing direction at Sowerby Bridge or Bradford interchange (via Shipley is also OK) doesn't count.
Mirfield is a member of Huddersfield Group.
Leeds is obviously a member of Leeds Group.
Maps for routes between Huddersfield Group and Leeds Group are LY and YT, of which YT is not helpful here.

The red line on map LY is from Huddersfield (Group) to Halifax (Group).

Do I understand this correctly - it's Sowerby Bridge's membership of Halifax Routeing Group which permits us to change there?

And, for instance, Mytholmroyd (Routeing points Accrington, Halifax Group, Manchester Group) would similarly be permitted EXCEPT that we would be doubling-back through Sowerby Bridge?
 

Solent&Wessex

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2009
Messages
2,351
Can someone please advise whether Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby Bridge is a permitted route? The journey planners say yes, but i am left wondering whether there is a doubling back element in the Sowerby Bridge area so wanted to check.
Incidentally, the journey planners do not say yes.

They say that "more than one ticket is required" which indicates that the through ticket is not valid, so no, it is DEFINITELY not valid.

See attached.
 

Attachments

Solent&Wessex

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2009
Messages
2,351
Mirfield is a member of Huddersfield Group.
Leeds is obviously a member of Leeds Group.
Maps for routes between Huddersfield Group and Leeds Group are LY and YT, of which YT is not helpful here.

The red line on map LY is from Huddersfield (Group) to Halifax (Group).

Do I understand this correctly - it's Sowerby Bridge's membership of Halifax Routeing Group which permits us to change there?

And, for instance, Mytholmroyd (Routeing points Accrington, Halifax Group, Manchester Group) would similarly be permitted EXCEPT that we would be doubling-back through Sowerby Bridge?
But you can't go from Mirfield to Huddersfield as you are doubling back via Deighton, and you can't double back within a group if the origin or destination is part of that group.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
49,090
Location
Yorkshire
If you take it that the map shows Huddersfield Group to Leeds Group as being valid via Halifax Group, then it's valid, and there are two direct lines from Huddersfield Group, converging at Brighouse, and then diverging again with two direct lines to Halifax Group, making 4 possible combinations between the Groups. But is that too simplistic?

If you take it that the map shows Huddersfield station (not Group) to Leeds station itself as being valid via Halifax station, then you get a completely different result and the ticket in question would not be valid, because, as kwvr45 says, Mirfield to Halifax via Huddersfield involves doubling back, which is permitted if neither origin/destination are a member of Huddersfield Group, however Mirfield is a member of Huddersfield Group.

I will ask someone who is writing a routeing engine what the official position is...
 

strowger

Member
Joined
2 Sep 2013
Messages
184
But you can't go from Mirfield to Huddersfield as you are doubling back via Deighton, and you can't double back within a group if the origin or destination is part of that group.
But the map is showing routes between groups, not individual stations. This must be the case as otherwise obviously-valid routes like Bradford to Leeds via the Forster Square/Shipley route wouldn't be permitted.

We can therefore travel from our Huddersfield Group member (Mirfield) to our Halifax Group member (Sowerby Bridge) and thence to Leeds.

Maybe.

It's clear as mud to me.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
49,090
Location
Yorkshire
But the map is showing routes between groups, not individual stations. This must be the case as otherwise obviously-valid routes like Bradford to Leeds via the Forster Square/Shipley route wouldn't be permitted.

We can therefore travel from our Huddersfield Group member (Mirfield) to our Halifax Group member (Sowerby Bridge) and thence to Leeds.
.
Indeed, that's been my understanding. The map shows a single point for 'HUDDERSFIELD GROUP' and shows one line to 'HALIFAX GROUP'

So there are in fact 4 possible routes from Huddersfield Group to Halifax Group, as there are 2 lines (one from Huddersfield & Deighton, and another from Mirfield) converging from the east at Brightouse, and two lines (one to Sowerby Bridge and the other to Halifax) diverging to the west at Brighouse. The 4 possible routes between these groups are as follows:

  • Mirfield - Brighouse - Halifax
  • Deighton - Brighouse - Halifax
  • Deighton - Brighouse - Sowerby Bridge
  • Mirfield - Brighouse - Sowerby Bridge
The question is, does the single line between them on the map denote all these possible routes, or does it show only one of them? I believe it's the former.
 

Attachments

asharpe

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2013
Messages
812
Location
West Yorkshire
My understanding is that to travel between two routing points joined by a line on a map you may travel via any stations that are not themselves routing points. Provided you don't pass through any station twice.
 

Starmill

Veteran Member
Associate Staff
Events Co-ordinator
Joined
18 May 2012
Messages
15,062
Location
Manchester
Incidentally, the journey planners do not say yes.

They say that "more than one ticket is required" which indicates that the through ticket is not valid, so no, it is DEFINITELY not valid.

See attached.
That's definitely a mistake - 'ticket valid for this service only'. Hmmm sounds about as far as you can get from an Anytime Day Single to me :roll:
 

Indigo2

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2010
Messages
3,648
Location
Reading
LY shows the route from Mirfield to Huddersfield
But Mirfield is not shown on the map as an individual station! It is only "accidentally" shown due to the new online routeing guide using a Google Maps backdrop. The routeing maps only show routeing points/groups (and now - since the move to the new system - also certain intermediate stations, when routes are required to be defined more precisely - but the only intermediate stations on map LY are Brough, Harrogate, Hebden Bridge and Todmorden). Incidentally, I find it very strange that Harrogate (which is not a routeing point) is out on a limb on its own on map LY. I'm pretty certain that you can only transition from one map to another at a Routeing Point, so this serves no purpose.

  • Mirfield - Brighouse - Halifax
  • Deighton - Brighouse - Halifax
  • Deighton - Brighouse - Sowerby Bridge
  • Mirfield - Brighouse - Sowerby Bridge
The question is, does the single line between them on the map denote all these possible routes, or does it show only one of them? I believe it's the former.
The way I believe booking engines check routes is by taking the schedule showing all calling and passing points, working through it checking for doublebacks and filtering out any stations that are not routeing points (as well as removing repeated stations within the same routeing group if covered by the group stations rule). This results in a list of routeing points/groups, and the check as to whether they can be traced on a map combination is quite simple and independent of the intermediate stations passed through.

My understanding is that to travel between two routing points joined by a line on a map you may travel via any stations that are not themselves routing points. Provided you don't pass through any station twice.
Correct; see above. Although slightly complicated by the fact that the electronic routeing guide used by booking engines has some intermediate non-routeing point stations on the maps - now shown on the maps as white circles with a peach-coloured outline. But that doesn't apply to the Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby Bridge journey.

Incidentally, the journey planners do not say yes.

They say that "more than one ticket is required" which indicates that the through ticket is not valid, so no, it is DEFINITELY not valid.
That's because the fastest connection from Sowerby Bridge to Leeds is generally on a train that doubles back through Brighouse and Mirfield again. You need to specify a longer wait time to get a train that goes via Halifax and Bradford; see attached.
 

Attachments

strowger

Member
Joined
2 Sep 2013
Messages
184
That's because the fastest connection from Sowerby Bridge to Leeds is generally on a train that doubles back through Brighouse and Mirfield again. You need to specify a longer wait time to get a train that goes via Halifax and Bradford; see attached.
Or specify the "via" point differently - eg as "Mirfield to Leeds via Halifax".
 

TUC

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2010
Messages
2,305
Incidentally, the journey planners do not say yes.

They say that "more than one ticket is required" which indicates that the through ticket is not valid, so no, it is DEFINITELY not valid.
Try searching for Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby Bridge on RSH or VTEC. They show the route as valid.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top