Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby Bridge

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by TUC, 26 Apr 2015.

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  1. TUC

    TUC Established Member

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    Can someone please advise whether Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby Bridge is a permitted route? The journey planners say yes, but i am left wondering whether there is a doubling back element in the Sowerby Bridge area so wanted to check.
     
  2. asharpe

    asharpe Member

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    Looks fine to me on map LY. http://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps

    To double back you would need to travel though the same station twice, so changing direction at Sowerby Bridge or Bradford interchange (via Shipley is also OK) doesn't count.
     
  3. Crossover

    Crossover Established Member

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    Can't comment on the validity, but I can certainly see such ticket use getting some interested glances from a guard
     
  4. 185143

    185143 Established Member

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    as can I. Without checking the specific fare, a West Yorkshire Train DayRover might be worthwhile? It will be more expensive, but you won't have any issues with it. (I'm assuming you're travelling off peak?)
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Just looked and the Mirfield-Leeds is 70p cheaper than SOW-LDS so I'd expect a strange glance tbh.
     
  5. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    There is no station between Sowerby Bridge and the junction, so there is no doubling back.
     
  6. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    Ticket checks in the area are not quite as common as perhaps they could be, nor are they particularly thorough. You'd be unlucky if you got questioned on it and very unlucky if it were rejected.

    For example, I've used a ticket from Horsforth to Brighouse via all of Shipley, Sowerby Bridge and Huddersfield and none have resulted in strange looks. Guards in the area have even been known to advise doubling back via Hebden Bridge / Dewsbury for various journey combinations where it's quicker.
     
  7. strowger

    strowger Member

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    I agree that Northern guards on this route are nearly all great and have a sensible and pragmatic approach to ticketing issues so long as a ticket is held and the attitude test is not failed. They are also fairly relaxed about checking tickets on trains where the majority of pax are heading for Leeds or Bradford (which have barriers).

    If you board the train at Mirfield, heading for Sowerby Bridge, and ask to buy a Mirfield to Leeds ticket, you might have trouble.

    While you could no doubt eventually win an argument with Northern by escalating appropriately, part of me thinks it's a bit sad to do something that endagers the [sensible-]customer-friendly approach which operates at present.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Mirfield is in WY Metro zone 3.

    Sowerby Bridge is in zone 5.

    I am extremely unsure what the legal position would be regarding use of a Z1-3 Metrocard to travel from Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby Bridge.

    The same issue may occur with Brighouse (zone 4) to Leeds, also possible via Sowerby Bridge (in zone 5).

    The metrocard terms and conditions are somewhat vague but state a ticket must be valid for "the area within which travel is intended".

    Comments gratefully received...!
     
  8. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    With a Metrocard I think it's fairly clear your card has to cover all the zones you travel through (in the absence of any other ticket) so a Z1-3 ticket would not cover the journey.

    With a point-to-point ticket it may well be valid.
     
  9. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I am extremely sure! It's not valid.

    Validity of Point to point tickets is as detailed in the Conditions of Carriage 13(a), which are as follows:
     
  10. TUC

    TUC Established Member

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    Although of course it shouldn't be be a matter of being 'lucky'.Ticket validity should never be about trying to get away with something questionable.It's about, if it's a permitted route, then the ticket is valid.
     
  11. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    And it is valid, because that is a permitted route.

    But I'm not sure how you can expect all conductors in the area to know that - how many have even heard of the Routeing Guide?
     
  12. TUC

    TUC Established Member

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    To know every aspect of the Routing Guide inside out? No. But to be aware of the Routing Guide and of the need to consult it when issues arise, together with being reasonably aware of permitted routes for the services they most regularly work on? Yes, absolutely. It is a core part of the knowledge needed for the job.
     
    Last edited: 28 Apr 2015
  13. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    That's definitely not what the reality is I'm afraid.
     
  14. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    It is indeed. It's a shame that it seems that some TOCs neglect to mention it in their training.

    Most of the guards on here who know about it seem to have found out here or from other outside-of-work sources.
     
  15. Solent&Wessex

    Solent&Wessex Established Member

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    For which on train staff receive absolutely no training or information about at all. Indeed when I mention the routeing guide to my colleagues I get blank stares and "what is that?" "I've never heard of that" type questions from anyone starting in the past 5 - 10 years or so, or "I thought that didn't exist anymore" "The last one I saw was years ago" from staff who have been around longer and remember the printed copies we used to be issued with many years ago.
     
  16. Solent&Wessex

    Solent&Wessex Established Member

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    Actually, I am not quite sure where you get that it is valid via Sowerby Bridge.

    Mirfield is a Huddersfield Group Routeing Point Member.

    Huddersfield to Leeds is valid on LY or YT.

    YT is valid only direct via Dewsbury.

    LY shows the route from Mirfield to Huddersfield, and also from Huddersfield to Halifax, but does not show the route direct from Mirfield to Sowerby Bridge via Brighouse taken by the direct trains between Mirfield and Sowerby Bridge. Thus, if following the lines on map LY you will be doubling back via Deighton and Halifax if you go via Sowerby Bridge. See attached.

    So no, I would say going via Sowerby Bridge is NOT valid.
     

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  17. strowger

    strowger Member

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    Mirfield is a member of Huddersfield Group.
    Leeds is obviously a member of Leeds Group.
    Maps for routes between Huddersfield Group and Leeds Group are LY and YT, of which YT is not helpful here.

    The red line on map LY is from Huddersfield (Group) to Halifax (Group).

    Do I understand this correctly - it's Sowerby Bridge's membership of Halifax Routeing Group which permits us to change there?

    And, for instance, Mytholmroyd (Routeing points Accrington, Halifax Group, Manchester Group) would similarly be permitted EXCEPT that we would be doubling-back through Sowerby Bridge?
     
  18. Solent&Wessex

    Solent&Wessex Established Member

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    Incidentally, the journey planners do not say yes.

    They say that "more than one ticket is required" which indicates that the through ticket is not valid, so no, it is DEFINITELY not valid.

    See attached.
     

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  19. Solent&Wessex

    Solent&Wessex Established Member

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    But you can't go from Mirfield to Huddersfield as you are doubling back via Deighton, and you can't double back within a group if the origin or destination is part of that group.
     
  20. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    If you take it that the map shows Huddersfield Group to Leeds Group as being valid via Halifax Group, then it's valid, and there are two direct lines from Huddersfield Group, converging at Brighouse, and then diverging again with two direct lines to Halifax Group, making 4 possible combinations between the Groups. But is that too simplistic?

    If you take it that the map shows Huddersfield station (not Group) to Leeds station itself as being valid via Halifax station, then you get a completely different result and the ticket in question would not be valid, because, as kwvr45 says, Mirfield to Halifax via Huddersfield involves doubling back, which is permitted if neither origin/destination are a member of Huddersfield Group, however Mirfield is a member of Huddersfield Group.

    I will ask someone who is writing a routeing engine what the official position is...
     
  21. strowger

    strowger Member

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    But the map is showing routes between groups, not individual stations. This must be the case as otherwise obviously-valid routes like Bradford to Leeds via the Forster Square/Shipley route wouldn't be permitted.

    We can therefore travel from our Huddersfield Group member (Mirfield) to our Halifax Group member (Sowerby Bridge) and thence to Leeds.

    Maybe.

    It's clear as mud to me.
     
  22. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Indeed, that's been my understanding. The map shows a single point for 'HUDDERSFIELD GROUP' and shows one line to 'HALIFAX GROUP'

    So there are in fact 4 possible routes from Huddersfield Group to Halifax Group, as there are 2 lines (one from Huddersfield & Deighton, and another from Mirfield) converging from the east at Brightouse, and two lines (one to Sowerby Bridge and the other to Halifax) diverging to the west at Brighouse. The 4 possible routes between these groups are as follows:

    • Mirfield - Brighouse - Halifax
    • Deighton - Brighouse - Halifax
    • Deighton - Brighouse - Sowerby Bridge
    • Mirfield - Brighouse - Sowerby Bridge
    The question is, does the single line between them on the map denote all these possible routes, or does it show only one of them? I believe it's the former.
     

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  23. asharpe

    asharpe Member

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    My understanding is that to travel between two routing points joined by a line on a map you may travel via any stations that are not themselves routing points. Provided you don't pass through any station twice.
     
  24. Starmill

    Starmill Established Member

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    That's definitely a mistake - 'ticket valid for this service only'. Hmmm sounds about as far as you can get from an Anytime Day Single to me :roll:
     
  25. strowger

    strowger Member

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    Well, I've bought this. Armed with my printout from the booking site, any bets how long before it's withdrawn? :)
     

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  26. Deerfold

    Deerfold Established Member

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    Wow that's quite pricey compared with £1551 for unlimited train and bus travel in the county.
     
  27. strowger

    strowger Member

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    Agreed - but the bus part is no use to me and CoC 19C is of great use to me.
     
  28. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    But Mirfield is not shown on the map as an individual station! It is only "accidentally" shown due to the new online routeing guide using a Google Maps backdrop. The routeing maps only show routeing points/groups (and now - since the move to the new system - also certain intermediate stations, when routes are required to be defined more precisely - but the only intermediate stations on map LY are Brough, Harrogate, Hebden Bridge and Todmorden). Incidentally, I find it very strange that Harrogate (which is not a routeing point) is out on a limb on its own on map LY. I'm pretty certain that you can only transition from one map to another at a Routeing Point, so this serves no purpose.

    The way I believe booking engines check routes is by taking the schedule showing all calling and passing points, working through it checking for doublebacks and filtering out any stations that are not routeing points (as well as removing repeated stations within the same routeing group if covered by the group stations rule). This results in a list of routeing points/groups, and the check as to whether they can be traced on a map combination is quite simple and independent of the intermediate stations passed through.

    Correct; see above. Although slightly complicated by the fact that the electronic routeing guide used by booking engines has some intermediate non-routeing point stations on the maps - now shown on the maps as white circles with a peach-coloured outline. But that doesn't apply to the Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby Bridge journey.

    That's because the fastest connection from Sowerby Bridge to Leeds is generally on a train that doubles back through Brighouse and Mirfield again. You need to specify a longer wait time to get a train that goes via Halifax and Bradford; see attached.
     

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  29. strowger

    strowger Member

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    Or specify the "via" point differently - eg as "Mirfield to Leeds via Halifax".
     
  30. TUC

    TUC Established Member

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    Try searching for Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby Bridge on RSH or VTEC. They show the route as valid.
     
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