Mirfield to Leeds via Sowerby Bridge

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Starmill

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A semicolon was probably more correct... It was traditionally for lists. I think it was just in the wrong place.
 
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yorkie

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The word "journey" is wrong, and "negative easement" is an oxymoron (and the concept may even be illegal; did we ever get confirmation DfT approved their introduction?). Some knowledge and interpretation is required. It is not easy for the average passenger to understand.

What ATOC meant to say said:
Passengers holding tickets from Huddersfield, Deighton or Mirfield to Leeds, or destinations via Leeds, may not travel via Sowerby Bridge. This prohibition applies in both directions
Yes, we can work it out, but it's not satisfactory.

I'd like to see the DfT stipulate that all terms comply with the 'crystal mark' standards and any terms that do not are not binding. Of course I am realistic and I know there is no chance of that happening whatsoever. :roll:
 

TUC

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Unless you have personally spoken to the author of the sentence, I don't agree you can be definitive that's it.
But surely the whole purpose of the Routing Guide is to be definitive. Otherwise what is the point?
 

sheff1

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But surely the whole purpose of the Routing Guide is to be definitive.
Of course, and the source to be used if there is a dispute over a routing.

That is why, as I said earlier, it is somewhat frightening that ATOC believe it is acceptable to publish barely literate easements .... and do so on a regular basis.
 
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Tetchytyke

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Edit: I see you are quoting yourself, not the easement in the Routeing Guide. That rather makes the discussion a waste of time !
For those who are struggling to read the easement:

700575 said:
Journeys between Huddersfield, Deighton and Mirfield to Leeds and beyond may not travel via Sowerby Bridge. Journeys may however travel via Halifax. This negative easement applies in both directions
You and Starmill can now sleep soundly in your beds knowing that ATOC are reading this website and have changed the semicolon to a comma. I trust that this means you are suddenly now able to fully understand what is written.

TUC said:
To say you cannot travel from Huddersfield, Deighton or Mirfield to Leeds, via Sowerby Bridge is one thing, but it is a very different matter to whether it means that tickets for routes on longer journeys to Leeds that go via Huddersfield, Deighton or Mirfield would not be valid for a route that was also via Sowerby Bridge.
Travel from Huddersfield, Deighton or Mirfield to Leeds is not permitted via Sowerby Bridge because of this easement.

Travel from Huddersfield, Deighton or Mirfield to stations beyond Leeds (e.g. Horsforth, Cross Gates) is not permitted via Sowerby Bridge because of this easement.

For stations beyond Huddersfield, I would agree that it is a grey area. I would say that the easement wouldn't prohibit journeys where one travels through Sowerby Bridge first (e.g. Manchester Victoria to Leeds via Brighouse), and that the easement is written in such a cack-handed way because of the existence of the direct trains and the VIA HEBDEN BRIDGE tickets.

I would interpret] the easement as also preventing passengers from places such as Slaithwaite or Berry Brow travelling to Leeds via Sowerby Bridge, as their routeing point is Huddersfield. However I would agree that this is just my interpretation and others could well make an argument that a Berry Brow-Leeds ticket is valid via Sowerby Bridge. Unlike the Mirfield ticket, the fare from Berry Brow is higher than from Sowerby Bridge so Northern/ATOC probably don't care either way.

Starmill is being disingenuous when he claims that he cannot understand the basic meaning of the easement.

Tickets from Deighton and Mirfield to Leeds are cheaper than from Sowerby Bridge, and the purpose of the easement is to prevent people buying those tickets and using them from Sowerby Bridge.
 

sheff1

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For those who are struggling to read the easement:
Congratulations that you can now read and correctly quote the easement.

I notice that you now also agree that there is a grey area regarding ticket validity, contrary to your previous assertions that the meaning was abundantly clear.
 

Tetchytyke

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Congratulations that you can now read and correctly quote the easement.
I was before, unless you're still labouring the point that a semicolon completely changes the meaning of the words. And I directly referred to the quote from HH, who had also directly quoted it.

I notice that you now also agree that there is a grey area regarding ticket validity, contrary to your previous assertions that the meaning was abundantly clear.
There are no grey areas regarding validity of tickets from Huddersfield, Deighton or Mirfield to Leeds.

There is certainly not the level of ambiguity that Starmill was trying to claim when he said:

Starmill said:
why does it talk about a journey between 4 places and which journeys does it mean, and how can a journey travel - via Halifax, or otherwise?
I'm not saying I agree with the easement. I'm saying that anyone who tries to claim they don't understand it is being disingenous.
 

Starmill

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There are no grey areas regarding validity of tickets from Huddersfield, Deighton or Mirfield to Leeds.
We were doing so well. You actually managed to quote what it says, rather than what you want it to say. Now though, we have this quandry! Where does it refer to tickets? Nowhere. It refers to journeys. This really isn't complicated unless you make it mate...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
There is certainly not the level of ambiguity that Starmill was trying to claim when he said:



I'm not saying I agree with the easement. I'm saying that anyone who tries to claim they don't understand it is being disingenous.
Right. Let's have an example. It's clear to me that just one of the "journeys" which do this "travelling" is Huddersfield to Mirfield. You agree?
 
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Tetchytyke

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Where does it refer to tickets? Nowhere. It refers to journeys.
Needless pedantry, given that one is not permitted to make any journey on the railways without being in possession of a ticket for that journey.

It's clear to me that just one of the "journeys" which do this "travelling" is Huddersfield to Mirfield.
Not sure how you reach that conclusion when the words specifically state from Huddersfield, Deighton and Mirfield to Leeds and beyond.

Unless you're trying to argue Mirfield is beyond Leeds?

Stop being disingenuous. You know fine well what it means.
 

Starmill

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Needless pedantry, given that one is not permitted to make any journey on the railways without being in possession of a ticket for that journey.
I'm so disappointed that I've got to explain this. I thought I was dealing with a seasoned member and didn't need to point this out but obviously that was my own naivety. Easements typically refer to one of two main groups of people who can do something that they might not otherwise have been able to. Either those making journeys 'to or via' a place, irrespective of their tickets, or those with particular tickets. The distinction is very important when it refers to specific things, e.g. if it refers only to tickets routed 'Any Permitted' from X to Y, or (as in this case) it refers to journeys being made from a particular place or through particular places. The easement doesn't seek to loosen the way in which a ticket can be used, it just tells a certain group of travellers which nobody has been able to thus far satisfactorily define. Before you bring still another flagrant charge of pedantry, you can argue if the the net effects of this are actually any different until the cows come home, I don't care; it is a 'clear' distinction that ATOC have chosen to make in the writing of the easements.

...the words specifically state from Huddersfield, Deighton and Mirfield...
Oh dear, making things up again, are we?

Unless you're trying to argue Mirfield is beyond Leeds?
I have no idea, because the easement does not say! If you can go from Huddersfield to Mirfield via Halifax, it's unclear if this should be via Leeds or not. You're very good at telling me that you categorically know what it means though so maybe we should just go with that? :roll:

You know fine well what it means.
Based on your conduct in this thread, I am forced to conclude that you most certainly do not. You accuse me of all sorts of things when I am merely going off what is actually written, and say that your own version of what your brain fills in the gaps left by the illiterate writer of this sentence are somehow definitive and because my brain has filled the gaps differently (or more accurately gives me several options for how they might be filled) none of my views are valid while only your singular one is? "I am right and you are wrong." Why?" "Because." Why would anyone accept that?

You and Starmill can now sleep soundly in your beds knowing that ATOC are reading this website and have changed the semicolon to a comma. I trust that this means you are suddenly now able to fully understand what is written.
Hate to repeat myself but the semicolon could have assisted with disambiguation had it just been put in the right place. Anyway, there is no way someone would be brain-dead enough spend their time trawling through this thread, see that the easement is garbage and has all sorts of problems with just the wrong words, syntax and ambiguities, but still decide to go and change it just on the basis of that semicolon becoming a comma. ATOC won't have people that stupid working for them.

Tickets from Deighton and Mirfield to Leeds are cheaper than from Sowerby Bridge, and the purpose of the easement is to prevent people buying those tickets and using them from Sowerby Bridge.
This is not likely. There are much more effective ways than the use of an easement to do that. There are abundant solutions, the best of which is to use a more sensible fares structure, like oh I don't know - zones?
 
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sheff1

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I was before, unless you're still labouring the point that a semicolon completely changes the meaning of the words.
You seem to be confusing me with someone else. I have never mentioned a semicolon, use (or not) of which is neither here nor there in my view.


Not sure how you reach that conclusion when the words specifically state from Huddersfield, Deighton and Mirfield to Leeds and beyond.
Yet again you are quoting things which are not there and, just for good measure, even underlining a word which does not appear in the easement.
 
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