Short fare issue Help!

[traingoer123]

I was caught today with a short fare ticket on the wrong train. I was travelling from Birmingham snow hill to Acocks Green and had bought my return ticket this morning from Tyseley to Snow hill as I was unable to purchase a ticket from Acocks Green on the train as the train had already departed - which I appreciate is my issue and not theirs!
I boarded the train home seeing the ticket inspectors on the train already with a view to get off at tyseley however I had stupidly boarded the wrong train which did not stop at tyseley. I fessed up immediately that I had the incorrect ticket and would pay any fine but the ticket inspector began asking probing questions - where are you parked, what does tyseley station look like etc why are you travelling from tyseley when you live at X. I was extremely anxious given everyone was staring on the train.
He then said he has suspicion that I was committing short fare offence and turned on his camera and read me my rights that whatever I said would be given in evidence at court etc. Out of panic and anxiety I told him I felt extremely uncomfortable and proceeded to leave the train.
I had already provided my information and admitted my car was at Acocks Green (obviously committing the short fare offence not realising it was such a serious offence)
As I left he said they would be in touch to take me to court
Having done some research, I am now expecting a letter from the fraud team
My questions are:
1. Will the fact I left the train as he read me my rights impact any decision they may make as I did not cooperate? I had already apologised, given my details and said I would pay any fine but he continued to question in quite an interrogating way so I was super anxious and panicky

2. Can they both fine me the usual fare evasion fine and also prosecute me for the short fare offence?

3. I didn’t sign anything as the issue obviously wasn’t resolved - will this impact their decision?

I am quite an anxious soul so I will now have many sleepless nights as I would lose my job and livelihood if I ended up with a criminal conviction.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated

 

[furlong]

Where did you leave the train? Was it BEFORE Tyseley? So you didn't actually travel outside the ticket's validity on the return?
How much did you admit during the formal interview?
How much did you admit informally?

Have you ever purchased similar tickets before, which they'll see if they search your online purchase history?

You'll have to wait till they contact you to find out what offences they might allege and whether they consider both the outward and return journeys. (Note that attempting not to pay can also be an offence.)

Usually though if you write back and apologise, offering to pay what they decide they are owed, they'll settle without court action.

 

[traingoer123]

Where did you leave the train? Was it BEFORE Tyseley? So you didn't actually travel outside the ticket's validity on the return?
How much did you admit during the formal interview?
How much did you admit informally?

Have you ever purchased similar tickets before, which they'll see if they search your online purchase history?

You'll have to wait till they contact you to find out what offences they might allege and whether they consider both the outward and return journeys. (Note that attempting not to pay can also be an offence.)

Usually though if you write back and apologise, offering to pay what they decide they are owed, they'll settle without court action.

Thanks so much for your reply.
I got off at small heath so I’m not actually sure where that is on the line in comparison to tyseley. The train I was on frustratingly didn’t not go to Tyseley (which I genuinely had not realised before boarding) so I just got off as soon as I could. Not sure if that is still an offence as albeit on the same line, the train did not stop at Tyseley
I didn’t admit anything during the formal questions - the train stopped at this point and I said I felt really anxious and needed to leave. He was giving me a barrage of questions before he had me under formal interview.
During the informal interview he was pressing me why I lived in X and I was getting off at Tyseley. I told him I go from different stations on different days depending on parking - Acocks Green, Tyseley, Olton etc. - so yes they will see varied ticket history on my Trainline app but I do switch up where I go from daily as I live local to all stations.
This occasion I was parked at Acocks Green and had bought a ticket on the train for Tyseley which I had admitted to him and apologised there and then. I explained that I had done this because when I got on the train running late bought a ticket as soon as I boarded but it wouldn’t let let me buy one from Acocks Green for that train as it had departed so I picked the next station so I would have a ticket that worked when I got to snow hill
he told me this was short faring and they were going to take me to court for it- that’s when the informal Q started. It seemed like he really just wanted to get an offence on me!

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Can I just check what happened. This is my understanding:

- You parked your car at Acocks Green and boarded the train to Snow Hill
- You didn't purchase a ticket before you boarded the train at Ackocks Green. Instead you purchased a return ticket from Tyseley to Snow Hill
- The outward journey to Snow Hill went without incident
- On your return journey you boarded the train at Snow Hill. The train you boarded didn't call at Tyseley (presemably it did call at Ackocks Green?)
- There was an inspector on the train. You gave your details and left the train. Where did you leave the train? Ackocks Green?

As you're now aware you're in a spot of bother but you should be able to sort it out although it will cost you a bit. West Midlands Trains will write to you in the next few weeks saying that they have received a report and are considering prosecuting you. When the letter arrives post a redacted copy of it in this thread along with yoru draft reply and we can assist with proof reading it for you.

WMT are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to but they normally settle this sort of thing out of court as long as you co-operate with them, and haven't come to their attention before. Expect to pay the cost of the fare avoided at the full Anytime rate, with no credit given for the invalid ticket you did purchase, along with an admin fee - typically £175. WMT will research your online tiket purchasing history and if this reveals other instances of purchasing short distance tickets they will want to factor the cost of these journeys into the settlement fee.

To answer your specific questions:

1. Will the fact I left the train as he read me my rights impact any decision they may make as I did not cooperate? I had already apologised, given my details and said I would pay any fine but he continued to question in quite an interrogating way so I was super anxious and panicky

Unlikely as you'd given your details.

2. Can they both fine me the usual fare evasion fine and also prosecute me for the short fare offence?

Only a court can impose a fine as a punishment if your are found guilty (either by pleading guilty or by being found guilty following a trial). Clearly, you don't want to pay a fine because this would mean you've been convicted. What you want to pay is an out of court settlement - basically you pay some oney to WMT and in return they won't prosecute you. Paying a settlement might feel like paying a fine but technucally it isn't a fine.

3. I didn’t sign anything as the issue obviously wasn’t resolved - will this impact their decision?

No.

I am quite an anxious soul so I will now have many sleepless nights as I would lose my job and livelihood if I ended up with a criminal conviction.

I'm afraid we can't really help you with this. If what you did was a one-off mistake it's easily sortable. If this has happened before then it's also sortable but going to be more expensive. Even if the worst did happen it's unlikely that you'd lose your job for a minor railway ticketing issue, as long as you disclose it correctly when asked about it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Apr 2025 ==

EDIT
Just seen this reply as it was posted while I was typing.

I got off at small heath so I’m not actually sure where that is on the line in comparison to tyseley

Small Heath is one stop closer to Birmingham Snow Hill than Tyseley.

It's not clear that an offence has been comitted here. Can you confirm the exact ticket you held, and which portion (i.e. the outward or return portion) you were using for that journey.

One issue is that under questioning you might have inadvertently incriminated yourself while being questioned, if you had mentioned that you travelled from Ackocks Green or were travelling to Ackocks Green, mentioning that your car was parked there etc.

 

[Cuthbert]

From BSW/BMO to ACG the train alternates between SMA and TYS.
When it stops at SMA it will not stop at TYS and vice versa.

 

[traingoer123]

Welcome to the forum!

Can I just check what happened. This is my understanding:

- You parked your car at Acocks Green and boarded the train to Snow Hill
- You didn't purchase a ticket before you boarded the train at Ackocks Green. Instead you purchased a return ticket from Tyseley to Snow Hill
- The outward journey to Snow Hill went without incident
- On your return journey you boarded the train at Snow Hill. The train you boarded didn't call at Tyseley (presemably it did call at Ackocks Green?)
- There was an inspector on the train. You gave your details and left the train. Where did you leave the train? Ackocks Green?

As you're now aware you're in a spot of bother but you should be able to sort it out although it will cost you a bit. West Midlands Trains will write to you in the next few weeks saying that they have received a report and are considering prosecuting you. When the letter arrives post a redacted copy of it in this thread along with yoru draft reply and we can assist with proof reading it for you.

WMT are entitled to prosecute you in the Magistrates Court if they want to but they normally settle this sort of thing out of court as long as you co-operate with them, and haven't come to their attention before. Expect to pay the cost of the fare avoided at the full Anytime rate, with no credit given for the invalid ticket you did purchase, along with an admin fee - typically £175. WMT will research your online tiket purchasing history and if this reveals other instances of purchasing short distance tickets they will want to factor the cost of these journeys into the settlement fee.

To answer your specific questions:


Unlikely as you'd given your details.


Only a court can impose a fine as a punishment if your are found guilty (either by pleading guilty or by being found guilty following a trial). Clearly, you don't want to pay a fine because this would mean you've been convicted. What you want to pay is an out of court settlement - basically you pay some oney to WMT and in return they won't prosecute you. Paying a settlement might feel like paying a fine but technucally it isn't a fine.


No.


I'm afraid we can't really help you with this. If what you did was a one-off mistake it's easily sortable. If this has happened before then it's also sortable but going to be more expensive. Even if the worst did happen it's unlikely that you'd lose your job for a minor railway ticketing issue, as long as you disclose it correctly when asked about it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Apr 2025 ==

EDIT
Just seen this reply as it was posted while I was typing.


Small Heath is one stop closer to Birmingham Snow Hill than Tyseley.

It's not clear that an offence has been comitted here. Can you confirm the exact ticket you held, and which portion (i.e. the outward or return portion) you were using for that journey.

One issue is that under questioning you might have inadvertently incriminated yourself while being questioned, if you had mentioned that you travelled from Ackocks Green or were travelling to Ackocks Green, mentioning that your car was parked there etc.

Hi Hadders
Thanks for your response and for taking the time.
The exact ticket I held was an anytime day return Tyseley —> Snow hill and I was using the return for the trip home from snow hill when I departed at small heath.
Yes, I think I did inadvertently incriminate myself during questions purely due to panic and not because I have been deliberately ‘short faring’ but purely due to my own lack of organisation skills buying the ticket whilst on the train (but I expect it won’t look that way to them!).
It’s crazy to me that this is worse than if I had no ticket altogether. I would have been better off saying I had nothing and taking the £50 fine.
The guy said they would be sending me a fine £50 for being on the incorrect train and then prosecuting separately for the suspected short fare evasion.
Thank you for your reassuring words that I (hopefully) won’t get a criminal conviction. This is my main concern here as I would lose my job and my profession (genuinely)

 

[AlterEgo]

I don’t think a Bylaw offence has been committed on the return journey. You held a valid ticket when you boarded and handed it over for inspection.

It’s always unwise to answer any questions as you did admit to at least a Bylaw 18.1 offence on the outward journey which would otherwise have gone unproven.

You also admitted to a Regulation of Railways Act 1889 offence probably under 3) a) which they would have had no proof of had you simply gone no comment and left at Tyseley.

Wait and see what WMT send you, but they may struggle to pin a Bylaw offence on you and train companies have lost the appetite to prosecute under RoRA as they can’t use the Single Justice Procedure (they realised this last year, having been doing it illegally for years).

 

[Cuthbert]

Hi Hadders
Thanks for your response and for taking the time.
The exact ticket I held was an anytime day return Tyseley —> Snow hill and I was using the return for the trip home from snow hill when I departed at small heath.
Yes, I think I did inadvertently incriminate myself during questions purely due to panic and not because I have been deliberately ‘short faring’ but purely due to my own lack of organisation skills buying the ticket whilst on the train (but I expect it won’t look that way to them!).
It’s crazy to me that this is worse than if I had no ticket altogether. I would have been better off saying I had nothing and taking the £50 fine.
The guy said they would be sending me a fine £50 for being on the incorrect train and then prosecuting separately for the suspected short fare evasion.
Thank you for your reassuring words that I (hopefully) won’t get a criminal conviction. This is my main concern here as I would lose my job and my profession (genuinely)

The issue is that purchasing a short fare ticket is worse than not having a ticket unfortunately.

Also you say they will send you a £50 fine? This does not make sense.
You would either be issued a Penalty Fare which is £100 plus the cost of the ticket or £50 plus ticket if you pay within 21 days starting the next day. Which is done there and then.

Or you were interviewed under caution and a MG11 was done which from your first post seems more plausible. That gets sent to the Prosecutions department they will decide if an out of court settlement is the way to go. Or take you to court. The WMR revenue person not knowing you might have also sent the details to Digital Fraud team which will then take over the case from the prosecutions team.
They will ask Train line to send your account over and will check if it is a one off or you have done it multiple times.

They would not send a "fine" for being on the wrong train and also have the Prosecutions and or fraud team involved.
It's either an MG or a Penalty Fare.
I understand your were anxious could you have misheard?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Apr 2025 ==

I don’t think a Bylaw offence has been committed on the return journey. You held a valid ticket when you boarded and handed it over for inspection.

It’s always unwise to answer any questions as you did admit to at least a Bylaw 18.1 offence on the outward journey which would otherwise have gone unproven.

You also admitted to a Regulation of Railways Act 1889 offence probably under 3) a) which they would have had no proof of had you simply gone no comment and left at Tyseley.

Wait and see what WMT send you, but they may struggle to pin a Bylaw offence on you and train companies have lost the appetite to prosecute under RoRA as they can’t use the Single Justice Procedure (they realised this last year, having been doing it illegally for years).

Passenger could not leave at Tyseley on that train though. Stopped at SMA then ACG passing TYS.

 

[AlterEgo]

Passenger could not leave at Tyseley on that train though. Stopped at SMA then ACG passing TYS.

Apologies, Small Heath, but the point remains.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

This map extract gives an indication of the relationship between Birmingham Snow Hill, Birmingham Moor Street, Small Heath, Tyseley and Acocks Green stations. (Olton is also mentioned).

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi Hadders
Thanks for your response and for taking the time.
The exact ticket I held was an anytime day return Tyseley —> Snow hill and I was using the return for the trip home from snow hill when I departed at small heath.
Yes, I think I did inadvertently incriminate myself during questions purely due to panic and not because I have been deliberately ‘short faring’ but purely due to my own lack of organisation skills buying the ticket whilst on the train (but I expect it won’t look that way to them!).
It’s crazy to me that this is worse than if I had no ticket altogether. I would have been better off saying I had nothing and taking the £50 fine.
The guy said they would be sending me a fine £50 for being on the incorrect train and then prosecuting separately for the suspected short fare evasion.
Thank you for your reassuring words that I (hopefully) won’t get a criminal conviction. This is my main concern here as I would lose my job and my profession (genuinely)

There’s no gaurantee that having no ticket results in a Penalty Fare I’m afraid (£100 or £50 if paid promptly ) even if that’s what the posters on stations might imply, or the conversation you had suggested.

It can vary on different situations but a variable will be things that staff think might have happened on other occasions or are deliberate evasion flags that they think need checking out mire carefully in the back office I suspect.

 

[AlterEgo]

There’s no gaurantee that having no ticket results in a Penalty Fare I’m afraid (£100 or £50 if paid promptly ) even if that’s what the posters on stations might imply, or the conversation you had suggested.

It can vary on different situations but a variable will be things that staff think might have happened on other occasions or are deliberate evasion flags that they think need checking out mire carefully in the back office I suspect.

While it’s true that an entirely ticketless passenger won’t always be PF’d, and they may be prosecuted - a truly ticketless passenger can’t be investigated by the back office team. They buy no tickets and leave no trace. You can’t investigate me for making a journey some time in the past where I got on a train and then got off it having never purchased a ticket.

It’s quite correct to say that passengers who attempt a wheeze get treated differently to ticketless passengers. I think that’s because of two reasons: truly ticketless passengers tend to be more brazen, potentially more hostile (“eff off I ain’t buying one, call the police and see if they care”) and less appealing to come into conflict with, and passengers who have been detected attempting a wheeze tend to be of a different demographic. They are often somewhat naive and don’t understand the limits of their capabilities, who don’t understand that talking isn’t in their interests, and who are often surprised or embarrassed to be caught and unprepared for the possibility.

The top end of fare evaders will never get caught. We never see them here and they don’t get detected. People who work in the industry know of a few undetectable lacunas in revenue protection and know some “civilians” will have worked them out too. That is why revenue protection prioritises the low hanging fruit of the compliant, naive chancer.

 

[traingoer123]

The issue is that purchasing a short fare ticket is worse than not having a ticket unfortunately.

Also you say they will send you a £50 fine? This does not make sense.
You would either be issued a Penalty Fare which is £100 plus the cost of the ticket or £50 plus ticket if you pay within 21 days starting the next day. Which is done there and then.

Or you were interviewed under caution and a MG11 was done which from your first post seems more plausible. That gets sent to the Prosecutions department they will decide if an out of court settlement is the way to go. Or take you to court. The WMR revenue person not knowing you might have also sent the details to Digital Fraud team which will then take over the case from the prosecutions team.
They will ask Train line to send your account over and will check if it is a one off or you have done it multiple times.

They would not send a "fine" for being on the wrong train and also have the Prosecutions and or fraud team involved.
It's either an MG or a Penalty Fare.
I understand your were anxious could you have misheard?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Apr 2025 ==


Passenger could not leave at Tyseley on that train though. Stopped at SMA then ACG passing TYS.

Hiya, thanks for your response. I think the guy was new too the job as he was all over the shop with what he was saying to me and stuttering over his words. He has initially said he would have to give me a ticket for being on the wrong train, I asked him how much this was and he said £50 if paid within 21 days like you say.

He then started prying more and accused me of short faring which is when he changed his line of questioning (asking to see my Trainline history which I naively showed not understanding what was going on) and sat down and read me my rights and (I think) clicked the camera on and started his timer at which point I left the train out of panic.

That is why I’m confused what route they are going to go down.. presumably the ‘fraud’ route?

 

[Cuthbert]

Hiya, thanks for your response. I think the guy was new too the job as he was all over the shop with what he was saying to me and stuttering over his words. He has initially said he would have to give me a ticket for being on the wrong train, I asked him how much this was and he said £50 if paid within 21 days like you say.

He then started prying more and accused me of short faring which is when he changed his line of questioning (asking to see my Trainline history which I naively showed not understanding what was going on) and sat down and read me my rights and (I think) clicked the camera on and started his timer at which point I left the train out of panic.

That is why I’m confused what route they are going to go down.. presumably the ‘fraud’ route?

Ah ok the guy changed from a Penalty Fare to an MG11 interview under caution.

 

[JBuchananGB]

It seems to me that at the time the OP was checked by an RPI he was in possession of a valid ticket for his journey, but had, by mistake, boarded a train that would not call at Tyseley. When this was pointed out to him by the RPI he sensibly got off the train at Small Heath, within the validity of his ticket. He has a complete defence against any alleged breach of byelaws or any other sort of law. He would then have needed to get a new ticket from Small Heath to Acocks Green as that was where he wanted to get to.

 

[Haywain]

He has a complete defence against any alleged breach of byelaws or any other sort of law.

That's a bold statement condidering the OP may well have admitted to travelling from, and intending to travel to, Acocks Green.