Short fares (doughnutting) and railcard misuse.

[Legalbae]

Hi all,

The other day I got on a Thameslink train from St Pancras to Chatham. I bought a 16-17 Trainline ticket from St Pancras to Farringdon (one stop) then my plan was to buy a ticket from Rochester to Chatham (another one stop) to save money. I got stopped by BTP who took my details and asked me questions (I tried to explain myself but got really nervous and nothing made sense).stupidly I showed them my Farringdon ticket instead of just saying I didn’t have a ticket. They also asked me why I used a 16-17 railcard I told them this was a mistake and must have been a slip of the finger and showed them my 16-25 railcard. However after reading other forums I only recently started buying 16-17 tickets to and from other stations and I know ppl said Trainline can check history of purchases. I don’t know how easy it is to out two and two together but I also sometimes buy complete tickets in other journeys. I’ll buy it to the next stop, stay on the train then buy a ticket from the stop before my destination to my destination so I can leave the barriers e.g . Denmark hill to London Victoria but I got on somewhere else like Rochester. However I do also sometimes buy full tickets so I don’t know if this will help my case? I’ve only ever received a penalty fare once I believe and I was like 15 I think. I haven’t received my letter yet from Thameslink but I’m awaiting one. I want to know the chances of me going to jail / getting a record. Can I settle a matter like this out of court, I go to a prestigious uni and have good prospects so I don’t want to mess it up. Would it also help if I buy tickets fully until I get my letter? Also a realistic amount of how much to pay would also help plz.
Someone help plz!!!

 

[methecooldude]

One of the forum experts will belong shortly, but I note that you say you attend a prestigious university and I assume, from your username, that you are studying law.
If you are taken to court and found guilty, then there is a potential you will be required to disclose this at any employment in the law field, its not a good look to have a dishonest lawyer. Now, hopefully the railway will offer you an out of court settlement.

Are you sure it was the BTP who spoke to you, rather that revenue protection of the train operator? If it was the BTP, then the likelihood of an Out of Court Settlement goes down as its not being handled by the railway

 

[penalty fares]

Hi Legalbae. reviewing what you have said it would appear the best course of action is to be honest about what you have been doing and why. In situations like this Trainline journeys and other electronic media would be checked.
Not sure this would have been Thameslink staff what does the paperwork you were given at the time say? It should have a name and a reference number. if you are not honest about your journeys then you may be prosecuted and this does carry a criminal conviction. Some cases can be settled out of court. You really need to make the first move apologising and making an offer to settle out of court or it may just be booked into a court hearing.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Would it also help if I buy tickets fully until I get my letter?

I'm sorry, but for somebody at a "prestigious university" who looks like they're pursuing a career in the legal profession, this is a remarkable question.

When do you think it would be OK to return to deliberately buying short and incorrectly discounted tickets?!?

 

[methecooldude]

I'm sorry, but for somebody at a "prestigious university" who looks like they're pursuing a career in the legal profession, this is a remarkable question.

When do you think it would be OK to return to deliberately buying short and incorrectly discounted tickets?!?

I second this...
@Legalbae you need to purchase the correct tickets starting immediately and continuing on doing so even after this issue is resolved

 

[Legalbae]

One of the forum experts will belong shortly, but I note that you say you attend a prestigious university and I assume, from your username, that you are studying law.
If you are taken to court and found guilty, then there is a potential you will be required to disclose this at any employment in the law field, its not a good look to have a dishonest lawyer. Now, hopefully the railway will offer you an out of court settlement.

Are you sure it was the BTP who spoke to you, rather that revenue protection of the train operator? If it was the BTP, then the likelihood of an Out of Court Settlement goes down as its not being handled by the railway

I don’t study law haha but thank you. I edited my post I thought it was the police but I checked the slip and it was an inspector , his badge number begins with GTR.

 

[Legalbae]

Hi all,

The other day I got on a Thameslink train from St Pancras to Chatham. I bought a 16-17 Trainline ticket from St Pancras to Farringdon (one stop) then my plan was to buy a ticket from Rochester to Chatham (another one stop) to save money. I got stopped by officers who took my details and asked me questions (I tried to explain myself but got really nervous and nothing made sense).stupidly I showed them my Farringdon ticket instead of just saying I didn’t have a ticket. They also asked me why I used a 16-17 railcard I told them this was a mistake and must have been a slip of the finger and showed them my 16-25 railcard. However after reading other forums I only recently started buying 16-17 tickets to and from other stations and I know ppl said Trainline can check history of purchases. I don’t know how easy it is to out two and two together but I also sometimes buy complete tickets in other journeys. I’ll buy it to the next stop, stay on the train then buy a ticket from the stop before my destination to my destination so I can leave the barriers e.g . Denmark hill to London Victoria but I got on somewhere else like Rochester. However I do also sometimes buy full tickets so I don’t know if this will help my case? I’ve only ever received a penalty fare once I believe and I was like 15 I think. I haven’t received my letter yet from Thameslink but I’m awaiting one. I want to know the chances of me going to jail / getting a record. Can I settle a matter like this out of court, I go to a prestigious uni and have good prospects so I don’t want to mess it up. Would it also help if I buy tickets fully until I get my letter? Also a realistic amount of how much to pay would also help plz.
Someone help plz!!!

 

[Legalbae]

I second this...
@Legalbae you need to purchase the correct tickets starting immediately and continuing on doing so even after this issue is resolved

Yes definitely! I think the way I typed was wrong, I don’t plan on returning to not paying tickets just wanted to know that if I begin would that help me?

 

[Legalbae]

Hi Legalbae. reviewing what you have said it would appear the best course of action is to be honest about what you have been doing and why. In situations like this Trainline journeys and other electronic media would be checked.
Not sure this would have been Thameslink staff what does the paperwork you were given at the time say? It should have a name and a reference number. if you are not honest about your journeys then you may be prosecuted and this does carry a criminal conviction. Some cases can be settled out of court. You really need to make the first move apologising and making an offer to settle out of court or it may just be booked into a court hearing.

Hiya,
Thanks for this! Yes I was wrong, it was an inspector not an officer and their badge number begins with GTR! Okay thank you!

 

[skyhigh]

Would it also help if I buy tickets fully until I get my letter?

If you mean "should I continue fare evading or should I pay my fare?" then frankly I cannot believe you are stupid enough to even consider evading the fare despite being under active investigation. Thameslink/GTR are usually open to settling as long as you engage with them and show that you understand the seriousness and you won't do it again.

If they find you have continued fare evading after being stopped then they will probably show no sympathy and progress straight to prosecution. You will throw away your entire career for the sake of saving a few pounds.

I got stopped by BTP

Was it definitely BTP? It would be very rare for them to get involved but if it is definitely them you are dealing with then there is effectively zero chance of an out-of-court settlement.

I want to know the chances of me going to jail

Realistically there is no chance whatsoever of going to prison.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

However after reading other forums I only recently started buying 16-17 tickets to and from other stations..

Are you saying that some other forum is suggesting / recommending purchasing inappropriately discounted rail tickets? And that you thought this was a good idea?

 

[Legalbae]

No I said after reading recent forums I realised that Thameslink can check my history. However buying discounted tickets was something I only recently began doing

If you mean "should I continue fare evading or should I pay my fare?" then frankly I cannot believe you are stupid enough to even consider evading the fare despite being under active investigation. Thameslink/GTR are usually open to settling as long as you engage with them and show that you understand the seriousness and you won't do it again.

If they find you have continued fare evading after being stopped then they will probably show no sympathy and progress straight to prosecution. You will throw away your entire career for the sake of saving a few pounds.


Was it definitely BTP? It would be very rare for them to get involved but if it is definitely them you are dealing with then there is effectively zero chance of an out-of-court settlement.


Realistically there is no chance whatsoever of going to prison.

Ok thank you

No I said after reading recent forums I realised that Thameslink can check my history. However buying discounted tickets was something I only recently began doing


Ok thank you

And no I was mistaken it was inspectors not British transport. I thought it was British transport

Are you saying that some other forum is suggesting / recommending purchasing inappropriately discounted rail tickets? And that you thought this was a good idea?

No I said after reading recent forums I realised that Thameslink can check my history.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

In terms of what's going to happen:

- now that the railway have caught you fare dodging, they will go through their records (and those of Trainline etc) to see if you have done it before. They will note occasions when there are pairs of tickets which go something like A to B (to get you into your departure station and on to the train), nothing from B to Y, and another ticket from Y to Z (to get you out of your arrival station) and will most likely think that these indicate fare dodging. This will take some time (think days or weeks) and will cost them some money
- the railway will write to you. The letter will be headed something like 'Notice of Intention to Prosecute' but it doesn't mean that they have already decided to take you to court. If you read it closely, you will find that it's offering you an opportunity to give your side of the story.
- it's really important to reply to this letter: if you don't the railway will almost certainly take you to court. If you do reply, and can convince the railway that you have learnt your lesson and will not fare dodge again, they may be prepared to settle matters 'out of court' for the fares that you dodged and the costs of them checking what has happened.
- you may get lucky and get an out of court settlement, in which case, pay it, and carry on with your life (without fare dodging - if you get caught again you can expect to go to court)
- if you don't get lucky, then you will be taken to court. On what you have told us, you can expect to be found guilty. You will be punished by having to pay a fine, plus court costs, prosecution costs and compensation to the railway. Typically this will amount to more than the cost of settling out of court. You will also have a 'criminal record': under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act for most purposes you may not have to declare your conviction at all, or for up to a year (it depends on the precise charge you are convicted of) but you also need to be aware that for some purposes (mainly things which involve a lot of trust being put in you, so that's things like health and care roles, being a lawyer or money and finance) you have to carry on declaring your conviction. This may have implications for your future employability. As a final point on what happens, you will not be sent to prison: the sentencing rules that courts work under don't allow this for fare dodging.

So what should you do now? I would suggest that you make notes of what happened, both when you were caught, and on previous occasions when you fare dodged. Also, start saving to pay a settlement. But otherwise, wait for the railway to write to you: it's important to reply to what they're actually asking, rather than what you think they might ask.

 

[John R]

In terms of a realistic amount you might have to pay, then for each journey that they identify you have not paid the correct fare, you are likely to be invited to settle the issue by paying the full single fare for the journey. And to be clear, for a return journey, that is two single fares, not a full return fare. You won't get any discount for any amount already paid, as those tickets were invalid for the journey taken. In addition, they will add on an admin fee typically in the £100 to £200 range, or more for complex cases.

This assumes you are made an offer, and you might have to do a bit of legwork in terms of correspondence (which we can help you with at the appropriate time) to persuade them that you are suitably contrite and apologetic. I am assuming that with your educational background, you should be quite good at writing a suitably worded articulate letter.

 

[Legalbae]

In terms of a realistic amount you might have to pay, then for each journey that they identify you have not paid the correct fare, you are likely to be invited to settle the issue by paying the full single fare for the journey. And to be clear, for a return journey, that is two single fares, not a full return fare. You won't get any discount for any amount already paid, as those tickets were invalid for the journey taken. In addition, they will add on an admin fee typically in the £100 to £200 range, or more for complex cases.

This assumes you are made an offer, and you might have to do a bit of legwork in terms of correspondence (which we can help you with at the appropriate time) to persuade them that you are suitably contrite and apologetic. I am assuming that with your educational background, you should be quite good at writing a suitably worded articulate letter.

Thank you for this, I appreciate it.

In terms of what's going to happen:

- now that the railway have caught you fare dodging, they will go through their records (and those of Trainline etc) to see if you have done it before. They will note occasions when there are pairs of tickets which go something like A to B (to get you into your departure station and on to the train), nothing from B to Y, and another ticket from Y to Z (to get you out of your arrival station) and will most likely think that these indicate fare dodging. This will take some time (think days or weeks) and will cost them some money
- the railway will write to you. The letter will be headed something like 'Notice of Intention to Prosecute' but it doesn't mean that they have already decided to take you to court. If you read it closely, you will find that it's offering you an opportunity to give your side of the story.
- it's really important to reply to this letter: if you don't the railway will almost certainly take you to court. If you do reply, and can convince the railway that you have learnt your lesson and will not fare dodge again, they may be prepared to settle matters 'out of court' for the fares that you dodged and the costs of them checking what has happened.
- you may get lucky and get an out of court settlement, in which case, pay it, and carry on with your life (without fare dodging - if you get caught again you can expect to go to court)
- if you don't get lucky, then you will be taken to court. On what you have told us, you can expect to be found guilty. You will be punished by having to pay a fine, plus court costs, prosecution costs and compensation to the railway. Typically this will amount to more than the cost of settling out of court. You will also have a 'criminal record': under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act for most purposes you may not have to declare your conviction at all, or for up to a year (it depends on the precise charge you are convicted of) but you also need to be aware that for some purposes (mainly things which involve a lot of trust being put in you, so that's things like health and care roles, being a lawyer or money and finance) you have to carry on declaring your conviction. This may have implications for your future employability. As a final point on what happens, you will not be sent to prison: the sentencing rules that courts work under don't allow this for fare dodging.

So what should you do now? I would suggest that you make notes of what happened, both when you were caught, and on previous occasions when you fare dodged. Also, start saving to pay a settlement. But otherwise, wait for the railway to write to you: it's important to reply to what they're actually asking, rather than what you think they might ask.

Hiya,

Thank you for this. When I do receive my later should I mention the other occasions where I fare dodged or not?

Thank you

 

[Fawkes Cat]

When I do receive my later should I mention the other occasions where I fare dodged or not?

It all depends on what they ask you. You should of course be honest, but you're not obliged to incriminate yourself. So if they only ask you about this one occasion, only tell them about this one occasion (but don't say ' this is the first time I have ever done this' - that wouldn't be honest, and if they've researched your ticket history they will know that you're lying).

 

[Legalbae]

It all depends on what they ask you. You should of course be honest, but you're not obliged to incriminate yourself. So if they only ask you about this one occasion, only tell them about this one occasion (but don't say ' this is the first time I have ever done this' - that wouldn't be honest, and if they've researched your ticket history they will know that you're lying).

Thank you!

 

[MotCO]

I assume that you gave them a correct address at which you can receive mail. If you are at Uni and move around, make sure you set up a post redirecting arrangement with Royal Mail. Don't forget that the letter may arrive when you are on Xmas holidays, and you only have limited time in which to respond.

 

[Legalbae]

I assume that you gave them a correct address at which you can receive mail. If you are at Uni and move around, make sure you set up a post redirecting arrangement with Royal Mail. Don't forget that the letter may arrive when you are on Xmas holidays, and you only have limited time in which to respond.

Yes I gave them my uni address which I’m at 90% of the time. I’ll also be there during Christmas so thank you.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thank you!

In addition to the good advice in this thread - As you indicate you are a student I would suggest you also see if your student union or university have an advice service that can help you or have an arrangement (many do) with a legal firm that may give you free or reduced cost legal help with this.

Your original post indicates you are a regular evader of fares by the methods you describe - you need to anticipate that you could be facing serious action for this now they have caught you with ramifications you need to avoid (ie being taken to court where you will be found guilty by the looks of it) - so you need to focus on getting a better outcome - ie seeking an offer for the issue to be settled out of court.

 

[Legalbae]

In addition to the good advice in this thread - As you indicate you are a student I would suggest you also see if your student union or university have an advice service that can help you or have an arrangement (many do) with a legal firm that may give you free or reduced cost legal help with this.

Your original post indicates you are a regular evader of fares by the methods you describe - you need to anticipate that you could be facing serious action for this now they have caught you with ramifications you need to avoid (ie being taken to court where you will be found guilty by the looks of it) - so you need to focus on getting a better outcome - ie seeking an offer for the issue to be settled out of court.

Thanks for this, I’ll reach out to my uni too

 

[Hadders]

Just to add to what other forum members have said. It sounds as though you're dealing with Govia Thameslink Railway so are usually more pragmatic at dealing with this sort of thing. To be clear, you will not be going to prison for this but it is going to cost you some money to deal with it. There is a chance you could be prosecuted although I expect it will be dealt with out of court as long as you co-operate with the train company.

Govia Thameslink Railway will send you a letter saying that they have received a report, are considering prosecuting you and asking for your version of events before deciding how to proceed. It is important that you engage with and reply to this letter. You might want to include the following in your reply:

- That you are sorry for what has happened
- What you have learned from the incident
- That you are keen to settle the matter without the need for court action
- Offer to pay the outstanding fare and the train company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter

Make sure your reply is short and concise, don't give a sob story - they've heard it all before. GTR are usually prepared to offer an administrative settlement (commonly known as an out of court settlement) for people who engage with the process and who haven't come to their attention before. There is no guarantee of this and they are within their rights to prosecute you in the magistrates court should they decide to do so.

There are a couple of aggravating factors here. You were given a Penalty Fare when you were 15 - I wouldn't expect this to have an adverse impact in this case. What could have an adverse impact is if you have done this before (which I suspect you have). GTR will be able to research your online ticket purchasing history so you will need to be very careful when you reply to their letter. You must answer their questions truthfully but you are not required to incriminate yourself either.

If you are offered a settlement the amount tends to be about £150 plus the outstanding fare. An out of court settlement might appear to be a fine, but it isn't and you won't have a criminal record as a result of accepting one.

I agree with forum members who have suggested speaking to your Student Union, they often provide some very good advice. The other thing to consider is the address you gave them - is it your term time address and will you be there over the Christmas holidays? You normally only get 7 or 14 days to reply to their letter so do make sure you are able to get hold of any post that might arrive if you are away.

Feel free to post a copy of the letter once it arrives (with personal details redacted) along with your draft reply in this thread and forum members will be happy to proof read it for you.

 

[Legalbae]

Hiya,

Thank you for this! By outstanding fare do you mean for that particular journey or others they found I didn’t pay for? I just want a rough idea of how much to save please.

 

[John R]

Almost certainly all they find (and they will go looking, judging by what we see here). Post 14 tells you how to calculate the rough amount you could be asked for.

 

[Hadders]

Hiya,

Thank you for this! By outstanding fare do you mean for that particular journey or others they found I didn’t pay for? I just want a rough idea of how much to save please.

You need to be prepared to pay for all of the occasions but it will depend on whether they just ask you about the specific incident where you were caught or whether they go and research your online ticket purchasing history and find more.

 

[Camsus]

In terms of a realistic amount you might have to pay, then for each journey that they identify you have not paid the correct fare, you are likely to be invited to settle the issue by paying the full single fare for the journey. And to be clear, for a return journey, that is two single fares, not a full return fare. You won't get any discount for any amount already paid, as those tickets were invalid for the journey taken. In addition, they will add on an admin fee typically in the £100 to £200 range, or more for complex cases.

This assumes you are made an offer, and you might have to do a bit of legwork in terms of correspondence (which we can help you with at the appropriate time) to persuade them that you are suitably contrite and apologetic. I am assuming that with your educational background, you should be quite good at writing a suitably worded articulate letter.

For GTR, this is incorrect information.

The fares paid ARE taken into account and deducted from the correct fares.
Also, GTR use return fares, including off-peak if the journeys were made at that time of day.

The admin/investigation fee will be at least £250 if multiple dates of travel are identified

Hiya,

Thank you for this! By outstanding fare do you mean for that particular journey or others they found I didn’t pay for? I just want a rough idea of how much to save please.

Out of interest, were you stopped by someone in uniform or plain-clothes?

 

[John R]

That’s interesting @bluebell81. Are you able to share on what basis you say that, as it’s certainly contrary to the normal practice we see here, and it’s always helpful to get a more accurate insight into current practice with individual TOCs.

 

[Camsus]

That’s interesting @bluebell81. Are you able to share on what basis you say that, as it’s certainly contrary to the normal practice we see here, and it’s always helpful to get a more accurate insight into current practice with individual TOCs.

A very good friend of mine has been through the settlement process with GTR.

A spreadsheet of all dates was provided by GTR, which I've seen. Both the fares that had been paid, and the correct fares were totalled up. The fares paid were deducted from the correct fares, leaving the outstanding fares. An investigation cost was also applied. In my friend's particular case, this was £300. The settlement sum consisted of the outstanding fares, plus inv. fee.

My friend opted to use a railway specialist solicitor, who said they regularly deal with GTR and had a good relationship with them. They explained GTR's process for settlements i.e. the use of daily peak and even off-peak return fares, investigation costs of £250 upwards (I think this depends on how many dates are found

According to the solicitor, GTR are one of the better companies to deal with, as others will only use single fares and aren't as open to reaching settlements etc

 

[Hadders]

For GTR, this is incorrect information.

The fares paid ARE taken into account and deducted from the correct fares.
Also, GTR use return fares, including off-peak if the journeys were made at that time of day.

The admin/investigation fee will be at least £250 if multiple dates of travel are identified

Thank you for this information, it is useful to know.

I generally advise that train companies expect to be paid the full Anytime fare with no credit for anything already paid. This is because I think it's better to give a 'worst case' scenario. Also, some train companies do charge the full Anytime fare with no credit for what has been purchased and I wouldn't put it past GTR or any other train company to suddenly change their policy.

 

[Haywain]

My friend opted to use a railway specialist solicitor, who said they regularly deal with GTR and had a good relationship with them. They explained GTR's process for settlements i.e. the use of daily peak and even off-peak return fares, investigation costs of £250 upwards (I think this depends on how many dates are found

According to the solicitor, GTR are one of the better companies to deal with, as others will only use single fares and aren't as open to reaching settlements etc

It may be that GTR deal with it in that way when they are dealing with solicitors but not with unrepresented individuals. To me, it is notable that in the example you give the investigation costs are much higher than we normally see from GTR (based on the experience of what we have seen on this forum over recent months, it is clear that GTR often ask for lower admin fees than other operators) so they may be balancing things out through that. They may also be aware that as the solicitor is costing in excess of £500 there is no need for them to consider anything that may be perceived as punitive as the person they could prosecute will be out of pocket to a greater extent than if they went to court.