Should Class 800 be ordered for the Cross Country franchise?

[Darandio]

Side note: EMR are getting 180s - if they're so unreliable why would they want them

They have little say in it!

 

[toby_farman]

Both have franchises, new trains were part of the franchises. CrossCountry isn't any time soon so new new trains. I'm not sure how many more times it can be pointed out.

YES and on the West Coast Partnership. What I'm asking is will the next XC franchise which is in 18 oct 2020 include new trains to replace the HSTs/220s/221s?

 

[Darandio]

YES and on the West Coast Partnership. What I'm asking is will the next XC franchise which is in 18 oct 2020 include new trains to replace the HSTs/220s/221s?

You are clearly ignoring every explanation about this given to you already.

 

[toby_farman]

Perhaps instead of discussing this, we should be discussing electrifying the core XC route from York to Bristol...

 

[Darandio]

Perhaps instead of discussing this, we should be discussing electrifying the core XC route from York to Bristol...

Feel free to start a new thread, as per the rules.

 

[toby_farman]

You are clearly ignoring every explanation about this given to you already.

Sorry.

At the dawlish warren area... how do the voyagers and hsts do with the seaspray... I know the 802s are supposed to be corrosion resistant...

 

[toby_farman]

Sorry.

At the dawlish warren area... how do the voyagers and hsts do with the seaspray... I know the 802s are supposed to be corrosion resistant...

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...ins-run-brunels-storm-battered-great-western/

 

[Monty]

YES and on the West Coast Partnership. What I'm asking is will the next XC franchise which is in 18 oct 2020 include new trains to replace the HSTs/220s/221s?

We've already told you it's unlikely to happen, you may see a small order to replace the HSTs or you may find class 222s are reformed and cascaded for that purpose. The Voyagers are probably going nowhere for a few years yet. How many times do we need to say it?

 

[toby_farman]

We've already told you it's unlikely to happen, you may see a small order to replace the HSTs or you may find class 222s are reformed and cascaded for that purpose. The Voyagers are probably going nowhere for a few years yet. How many times do we need to say it?

Does the unpopularity with customers mean nothing to TOCS?!

 

[Monty]

Does the unpopularity with customers mean nothing to TOCS?!

Do you really need me to answer that question for you?

Besides, it's rather ironic that you mention passengers (un)popularity with rolling stock when the HSTs are probably one of the most popular trains still in service today. The Mk3 coach design has yet to be beaten in terms of comfort and engineering imho.

 

[toby_farman]

Do you really need me to answer that question for you?

Besides, it's rather ironic that you mention passengers (un)popularity with rolling stock when the HSTs are probably one of the most popular trains still in service today. The Mk3 coach design has yet to be beaten in terms of comfort and engineering imho.

Be honest, do you really think the HSTs are better than the IETs?

 

[Monty]

Be honest, do you really think the HSTs are better than the IETs?

Yes, age and technology aside the HST is a superior train that was designed for specific purpose. The IETs are a train essentially designed by a (DafT) committee and too many compromises were made in order to make up for successive governments failure to properly invest in railway infrastructure. Now we have a very expensive train in different fixed formations with different specs of the bi-mode/hybrid system for different routes. Hardly a worthy successor to a train that was initially designed as a stop gap measure and had wide route availability.

They would have been much better if they had been built as pure EMUs with no 'humped' floors in order to shoe horn in power units, but it is what it is. I have no doubt they will eventually prove to be a reliable family of trains. But the whole saga around their design, specification and now numerous sub classes does not convince me it's superior over the HST in terms of being a train.

 

[toby_farman]

Yes, age and technology aside the HST is a superior train that was designed for specific purpose. The IETs are a train essentially designed by a (DafT) committee and too many compromises were made in order to make up for successive governments failure to properly invest in railway infrastructure. Now we have a very expensive train in different fixed formations with different specs of the bi-mode/hybrid system for different routes. Hardly a worthy successor to a train that was initially designed as a stop gap measure and had wide route availability.

They would have been much better if they had been built as pure EMUs with no 'humped' floors in order to shoe horn in power units, but it is what it is. I have no doubt they will eventually prove to be a reliable family of trains. But the whole saga around their design, specification and now numerous sub classes does not convince me it's superior over the HST in terms of being a train.

At least the IETs don't allow people to poke their heads out the window and have them chopped off...
They also have automatic doors, air conditioning and power points.... A worthy successor in my opinion!

 

[Monty]

At least the IETs don't allow people to poke their heads out the window and have them chopped off...
They also have automatic doors, air conditioning and power points.... A worthy successor in my opinion!

Eh? You do know that your average refurbished HST trailer has air conditioning, power points, wifi and are even being fitted with power doors which removes the risk of people being injured from open windows? Hardly game changing stuff..

 

[toby_farman]

Eh? You do know that your average refurbished HST trailer has air conditioning, power points, wifi and are even being fitted with power doors which removes the risk of people being injured from open windows? Hardly game changing stuff..

Not many are refurbished

 

[Monty]

Not many are refurbished

I'm going to put your naivety down to your relatively young age. Most if not all HST trailers have been heavily refurbished over their life time more than once, the coaches were built with air conditioning. Later in their careers features such as wifi and power sockets have been gradually added, yes the power door mods haven't gone to plan but it is progressing and eventually the last slam door vehicles in regular passenger service will disappear. You only have to look at Chiltern Railway's Mk3s to see what can be done, they are very popular with the general public and the company have no plans to replace them in the near future.

 

[toby_farman]

I'm going to put your naivety down to your relatively young age. Most if not all HST trailers have been heavily refurbished over their life time more than once, the coaches were built with air conditioning. Later in their careers features such as wifi and power sockets have been gradually added, yes the power door mods haven't gone to plan but it is progressing and eventually the last slam door vehicles in regular passenger service will disappear. You only have to look at Chiltern Railway's Mk3s to see what can be done, they are very popular with the general public and the company have no plans to replace them in the near future.

Yes, but the bi-mode stock has lower carbon emissions than pure diesel stock so it makes sense to replace them?

 

[Monty]

Yes, but the bi-mode stock has lower carbon emissions than pure diesel stock so it makes sense to replace them?

At the appropriate time yes, you replace it. The existing Mk3s will spend most of their time running on unelectrified lines so wholesale replacement with bi-modes is not practical at this time. Nor is it practical to withdraw an entire class of diesel trains on the basis of their emissions alone, trains last on average 35-40 years.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

There is no reason to replace the Voyagers yet, and there aren't that many other places they could go where they'd be ideally suited - XC will be the logical operator to receive the surplus 221 trains from the new WCML operator when their new units arrive, so some extra capacity will come from that - if any additional capacity is deemed warranted by the DfT, the remaining solo Voyager diagrams can be doubled up and additional 80x units ordered to fill the gaps. I think that's unlikely to happen before the extra stock comes across, so you'll probably be looking at 2024 earliest before anything other than Voyagers and HSTs work on CrossCountry, if at all.

But there is a good reason, one of emissions due to all the under wires running that currently occurs. Allowing a cascade of 22x units onto routes with less under wires running could then occur, especially if they can get rid of having to go to Stansted allowing 22x units to replace Turbostars

 

[toby_farman]

But there is a good reason, one of emissions due to all the under wires running that currently occurs. Allowing a cascade of 22x units onto routes with less under wires running could then occur, especially if they can get rid of having to go to Stansted allowing 22x units to replace Turbostars

I've said it many times and I'll say it again. Let's stop running pure diesel trains on electrified track. What's the point?!

 

[samuelmorris]

I've said it many times and I'll say it again. Let's stop running pure diesel trains on electrified track. What's the point?!

Buying a new car every 2 years because the new generation is 10% less emitting than the last one is still a massive net deficit in terms of carbon emissions, the same is true of the railway but only moreso - within reason, buying a new car would be a trip or two to the dealer and some delivery mileage but your driving license already covers you to drive it safely without any training. New trains require extensive testing and staff training that costs a fortune as well as being colossal capital investment (as stated, a single new 9-car 800 unit is of the order of £25 million). You want to get your money's worth. If the old fleet is literally falling apart and is uneconomical to keep in service, or if it requires extensive work to meet safety & accessibility requirements that's prohibitively expensive, withdraw it. Otherwise to do so prematurely is a total waste.

What is the net benefit to the passenger of replacing HSTs and Voyagers on CrossCountry? What would 802s offer that the existing fleet does not? (Other than less comfortable seats, but let's not go there!) - They won't be any faster (vs. Voyagers, actually slightly the opposite), they don't really offer any new features particularly as the old fleet is already air-conditioned, what's the reason for change? Just because running diesel under the wires is wasteful doesn't mean by a load of new trains. Yes, they'd be better being used elsewhere in areas where there is no diesel-under-wires running but as things stand, I still believe this is the best compromise. Bi-mode trains are really only a very recent thing in the UK and they are still taking some time to get right - the 80x series is far from perfect as it's rather underpowered for 125mph diesel operation where Voyagers are not. At the time the voyagers were procured there was no such option. When it's time to replace the Voyagers, absolutely replace them with bimodes (Preferably electrify the whole route but we know that's not going to happen any time soon), but until then, they can stay put in my opinion.

 

[toby_farman]

Buying a new car every 2 years because the new generation is 10% less emitting than the last one is still a massive net deficit in terms of carbon emissions, the same is true of the railway but only moreso - within reason, buying a new car would be a trip or two to the dealer and some delivery mileage but your driving license already covers you to drive it safely without any training. New trains require extensive testing and staff training that costs a fortune as well as being colossal capital investment (as stated, a single new 9-car 800 unit is of the order of £25 million). You want to get your money's worth. If the old fleet is literally falling apart and is uneconomical to keep in service, or if it requires extensive work to meet safety & accessibility requirements that's prohibitively expensive, withdraw it. Otherwise to do so prematurely is a total waste.

What is the net benefit to the passenger of replacing HSTs and Voyagers on CrossCountry? What would 802s offer that the existing fleet does not? (Other than less comfortable seats, but let's not go there!) - They won't be any faster (vs. Voyagers, actually slightly the opposite), they don't really offer any new features particularly as the old fleet is already air-conditioned, what's the reason for change? Just because running diesel under the wires is wasteful doesn't mean by a load of new trains. Yes, they'd be better being used elsewhere in areas where there is no diesel-under-wires running but as things stand, I still believe this is the best compromise. Bi-mode trains are really only a very recent thing in the UK and they are still taking some time to get right - the 80x series is far from perfect as it's rather underpowered for 125mph diesel operation where Voyagers are not. At the time the voyagers were procured there was no such option. When it's time to replace the Voyagers, absolutely replace them with bimodes (Preferably electrify the whole route but we know that's not going to happen any time soon), but until then, they can stay put in my opinion.

If they have to replace the HSTs with IEP style trains for the next franchise, wouldn't the next franchise operator like to "standardise" their fleet instead of having brand new trains on some routes and old trains on other routes... There are places with older stock than the voyagers like GWR HST "castle class" sets (4cars), they could go there, they could also go to replace long distance sprinter services like Portsmouth harbour to Cardiff central which has a class 159?

 

[Speed43125]

I've said it many times and I'll say it again. Let's stop running pure diesel trains on electrified track. What's the point?!

The class 769 is a case in point there. As is the eVoyager mentioned upthread.
People agree. It is daft to invest in infrastructure then not use it. But changing the rolling stock, as has been happening nationwide in recent years due to PRM regulations, has caused untold chaos and delays in the new stock entering service. and here, the existing stock is good, there may not be enough of it. But a voyager that isn't crowded is quite nice, and most people are in favour of HSTs. I agree rail transport always seems less flashy than road or plane, but those get replaced more quickly, and have more of a secondary market for used stuff once it gets removed from top tier operator respectively.
Think of the HSTs (and in some ways Voyagers too)like 757s if your in to your planes. surprisingly similar situation. (and then IETs as A321s!)
I recommend having a look at some of the TPE, GA, or Scotrail threads to see what happens when new stock seemingly inevitably gets delayed.

 

[Aictos]

Surely the pure diesels 220s/221s could go to ChiternRailways to replace the old Class68s+Mark3s on the Chiltern main line with no electrification and then order Azumas/IETs for the partially electrified XC route? That would stop the voyagers + super voyagers from going to waste whilst providing more capacity on the XC route? I guess we'll have to figure out what to do with the ex-EMR 222s though...

The Class 68s aren’t old though, the oldest is only 6 years old and I don’t see that as a reason to withdraw them not when you have 50 year old Class 37s on the Welsh Valleys!

 

[S-Bahn]

Does anyone have some comparison data for the performance of an IET on electric and diesel v a CrossCountry Voyager or HST (as I am assuming when on electric the IET has better acceleration and sustained running at 125mph, and lesser performance when running on diesel)

 

[swt_passenger]

I recommend having a look at some of the TPE, GA, or Scotrail threads to see what happens when new stock seemingly inevitably gets delayed.

Or the numerous other threads that exist about XC rolling stock issues. I’m not exactly sure why this 18 month old one one was chosen for resurrection, but it’s doubled in length just today. And yet nothing new has been mentioned...

 

[londonmidland]

Does anyone have some comparison data for the performance of an IET on electric and diesel v a CrossCountry Voyager or HST (as I am assuming when on electric the IET has better acceleration and sustained running at 125mph, and lesser performance when running on diesel)

I have no evidence to back this up, and only from my own experience, but I’m pretty certain a Voyager would be able to beat an IET on diesel mode at acceleration and being the first to reach 125mph. On electric mode however I am unsure..

 

[Speed43125]

Or the numerous other threads that exist about XC rolling stock issues. I’m not exactly sure why this 18 month old one one was chosen for resurrection, but it’s doubled in length just today. And yet nothing new has been mentioned...

that is true. This topic is spread over far too many threads. This thread is also under Rolling stock rather than speculative ideas too which is rather odd.

 

[xc170]

Eh? You do know that your average refurbished HST trailer has air conditioning, power points, wifi and are even being fitted with power doors which removes the risk of people being injured from open windows? Hardly game changing stuff..

They're still a 30 year old train reaching thr end of their useful life.

 

[swt_passenger]

that is true. This topic is spread over far too many threads. This thread is also under Rolling stock rather than speculative ideas too which is rather odd.

I’m reassured someone agrees. I think this thread was maybe missed when the speculation sub-forum was set up, I suspect it was already a few months old and not current at that time.