Should Heathrow Express be abolished, to enable more Crossrail trains to Terminal 5?

[Acton1991]

That's a matter for stopping patterns though. I am saying that stations West Drayton-Reading need upping, vs the Heathrow stations themselves. But yes also the interim/trunk ones need improvement too. That Hayes bay could hopefully be the first call for another slow 2tph - which in turn could speed something else up (a T5 pair) ?

Are the services west of the London boundary really that busy to justify an increase in service? I don’t travel on that part of the line so I am genuinely interested as to whether the EL has driven higher ridership.

 

[Horizon22]

That's a matter for stopping patterns though. I am saying that stations West Drayton-Reading need upping, vs the Heathrow stations themselves. But yes also the interim/trunk ones need improvement too. That Hayes bay could hopefully be the first call for another slow 2tph - which in turn could speed something else up (a T5 pair) ?

Another slow 2tph? Again, where is the capacity for this? Outside of peak is it really required? Also going into Hayes doesn’t really resolve the Thames Valley stations so bit confused in your approach.

West Drayton might be the only station that could use the capacity, otherwise it’s not too bad.

 

[Al5]

Well that’s already designed for at OOC, and has been explained in a number of earlier threads. It’s not going to directly impact on Hex at all.

Interesting, why are they saying they need loads of additional trains if they are supplying 12tph empty by turning around at 5 minutes from where they currently turn around?

 

[cle]

Another slow 2tph? Again, where is the capacity for this? Outside of peak is it really required? Also going into Hayes doesn’t really resolve the Thames Valley stations so bit confused in your approach.

West Drayton might be the only station that could use the capacity, otherwise it’s not too bad.

was this you? I think you're contradicting yourself.

It's the passengers at West Ealing and Acton Main Line who are the most frustrated.

Re-read and it'll be clear:

- I don't know about West Drayton and west, I was genuinely asking too. But I would think WD itself and Slough will justify more than 4tph in time.
- A new 2tph to Hayes into the bay feels to most doable extension, if any could be done. It's there and unused. Logically something turning there would be slow.
- Therefore something else could be sped up. Like a T5. Which is back to the HEx conundrum. Or not, and we add a stopping frequency across all the stations from Hayes and in. Including the ones you've name-checked as problematic, bingo.

 

[Horizon22]

was this you? I think you're contradicting yourself.


Re-read and it'll be clear:

- I don't know about West Drayton and west, I was genuinely asking too. But I would think WD itself and Slough will justify more than 4tph in time.
- A new 2tph to Hayes into the bay feels to most doable extension, if any could be done. It's there and unused. Logically something turning there would be slow.
- Therefore something else could be sped up. Like a T5. Which is back to the HEx conundrum. Or not, and we add a stopping frequency across all the stations from Hayes and in. Including the ones you've name-checked as problematic, bingo.

I think they are frustrated, but I think that comes with expectations. They are on a busy, popular, metro line now and trains will be full and standing often in the peak. The line capacity is at or near 100% in the peak.

To take the other points:

• Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford will continue to get GWR semi-fast services, so no increase necessary. West Drayton may have more of a case.
• If it was going to be done, I'd instead extend it to West Drayton P5 (although this is often used by freight so would need to be carefully scheduled). Outside of peak though I don't see it as feasible. You still do not resolve the capacity issues with speeding something up.
• Sure you could make the Reading services call all stations but as stated above a) that would considerably increase journey times, b) is there much extra capacity on the trains at that time of day) and c) capacity again.

There will be 12tph in the peak from May (4tph Reading/Maidenhead, 2 semi-fast Reading 2tph T5, 4tph T4). It's a service uplift at Hayes, West Ealing and Ealing Broadway (and West Drayton in peak) which will resolve issues at known hotspots.

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting, why are they saying they need loads of additional trains if they are supplying 12tph empty by turning around at 5 minutes from where they currently turn around?

I don’t think they’ll actually need “loads”, more likely no more than 2 or 3.

 

[cle]

I take the point about the faster Didcots for Slough/M/T - I expect folks will be jumping off those at OOC for Crossrail in due course! But hopefully, for your Ealing and Acton passengers, they can sync onto starters. I still think we'll see a need for more west.

West Drayton would be helpful, and indeed it was a scheduled terminating point for a while - that fifth line runs to Langley (from memory?) - I always thought it would be better used for stabling freight than terminating services - but either is welcome. Slough would have been a logical one, back when it had an extra platform.

 

[Horizon22]

I take the point about the faster Didcots for Slough/M/T - I expect folks will be jumping off those at OOC for Crossrail in due course! But hopefully, for your Ealing and Acton passengers, they can sync onto starters. I still think we'll see a need for more west.

West Drayton would be helpful, and indeed it was a scheduled terminating point for a while - that fifth line runs to Langley (from memory?) - I always thought it would be better used for stabling freight than terminating services - but either is welcome. Slough would have been a logical one, back when it had an extra platform.

The thing is anything terminating at Slough might as well terminate at Maidenhead. And then anything terminating at Maidenhead might as well terminate at Reading (as the Crossrail project indeed agreed to do early on).

Hayes had terminating trains for a fair while (and especially after T4 closed during Covid). Not sure of the full history of West Drayton terminators.

 

[cle]

It was planned but I think that was before T5 was worked in. Maidenhead to Reading is pretty far, it definitely has stock utilization impact. Slough was always more of a logical mid-point for me (with Reading) - larger place, junction with Windsor, fast service interchange.

Maidenhead always felt like a stopgap until Reading was sorted and the works were successful. Plenty of capacity on those two relief islands.

 

[LLivery]

How is ridership faring from West Drayton and west? I'd also like to see increased service there, it's more important than Heathrow. Which I appreciate is a useful turnback, ostensibly - with some airport traffic. It still has the tube, which is cheap and very well used.

Are the services west of the London boundary really that busy to justify an increase in service? I don’t travel on that part of the line so I am genuinely interested as to whether the EL has driven higher ridership.

I used it out west on a weekday a few weeks ago. Jumped on a Reading service at West Drayton as far as Slough for Windsor - I was genuinely surprised at how busy it was. If the growth continues, it could probably sustain 6tph as far as Slough (Maidenhead) within a year or two quite easily.

 

[Al5]

I don’t think they’ll actually need “loads”, more likely no more than 2 or 3.

I think this my point it’s does not need “loads” more trains, moreover per the other comments this was always the original plan when OOC opens.

So why announce this week that the delay to HS2 is the the start of a massive funding battle with DfT Treasury for more EL trains? Seems odd.

However, if you were planning to run say 10tph+ EL to Heathrow, and kill the Heathrow Express when OOC opens, then you would need many more EL trains?

 

[JonathanH]

However, if you were planning to run say 10tph+ EL to Heathrow, and kill the Heathrow Express when OOC opens, then you would need many more EL trains?

It remains unlikely that 10tph or more Elizabeth Line services will run to Heathrow, and that Heathrow Express will be killed. It would require more trains, basically whatever would be the number of extra trains west of Paddington at any point. On a stopping timetable, Heathrow would be an extra 1.5 hour cycle for each unit, so an extra 4tph would require an extra six units. There isn't any prospect of fast Elizabeth Line services to Heathrow.

So why announce this week that the delay to HS2 is the the start of a massive funding battle with DfT Treasury for more EL trains? Seems odd.

Posturing. If they need any new trains, they need to be paid for by someone. Even two or three new trains aren't cheap.

 

[Horizon22]

It remains unlikely that 10tph or more Elizabeth Line services will run to Heathrow, and that Heathrow Express will be killed. It would require more trains, basically whatever would be the number of extra trains west of Paddington at any point. On a stopping timetable, Heathrow would be an extra 1.5 hour cycle for each unit, so an extra 4tph would require an extra six units. There isn't any prospect of fast Elizabeth Line services to Heathrow.


Posturing. If they need any new trains, they need to be paid for by someone. Even two or three new trains aren't cheap.

Indeed Heathrow Express have those paths - so you wouldn't be able to "kill" it unless HAL were willing to relinquish them and then the Elizabeth line swoops in. Doesn't seem to be much appetite for that yet. A few years down the line once passenger numbers on Heathrow Express are analysed and the long-term impact of the Elizabeth Line is known might call for a reassessment.

Of course we still have capacity issues, which not many seem to have accepted. This is true of both future slow (Relief Line) or fast (Main Line, but crossing somewhere from the central section) services.

The loads at OOC would get rather extreme and perhaps not the best for passengers going further West, although 24tph towards Central London might be enough, but it's all modelling right now.

 

[johntea]

I visited Heathrow for the first time ever last week (I'm a Northerner who doesn't fly very often, I was just staying in the Hounslow Travelodge so thought it would be rude not to make the trip for a look round!)

Decided to return to Central London via the Elizabeth Line (yes I know more expensive than the Underground but I made good use of the daily cap anyway that day!), and at that point I was surprised at how I passed through the gateline with my contactless card and arrived at the platform to find it was essentially 'shared' by both Elizabeth Line AND Heathrow Express services!

It got me wondering how many people for Paddington just jump on the first train that comes along i.e. the Heathrow Express and then get a bit of a shock by the fare (I'm assuming if they're using contactless and tap out at Paddington they're charged £25?), as when the Heathrow Express pulled in it sucked up over 50% of the waiting passengers on the platform!

 

[Via Bank]

That's arguably how the scam most of their custom works. People have generally just come off a horrendous flight, half an hour waiting on the tarmac, bus gate, queues at immigration/passport control/customs/etc., are unfamiliar with the system and with the value of sterling, and will jump at all the signage mentioning the "fast train to London," not necessarily realising that (a) Paddington is pretty out-of-the-way for most places, and (b) £25 is appalling.

I say the sooner it's nationalised and abolished/absorbed into the Elizabeth line, the better.

Edit: One more thing to remember, it's free to use any train to transfer between the terminals (or rather it certainly used to be.) I don't know to what extent people tend to connect to a different flight at Heathrow though, I expect Schiphol has cornered that market.

 

[Techniquest]

Heathrow is one of the biggest airports in the world for connecting flights! I'd imagine it is used a LOT for that purpose in terms of the trains between terminals. I've never made a connection in Heathrow myself, but plenty of people do on a daily basis. Happens often enough on British Airways at least!

I actually tried contactless on Heathrow Express on Friday, knowing the fare. I'd have done it last Monday too, but I didn't want to be charged £50 (one £25 on the Monday, another on the Friday) when the machines would issue a £32 return ticket. Or the app would, but I found neither were working for me on the Monday. So I gave up and tried the Piccadilly line to the airport, what a way (lots of sarcasm) to arrive at the airport! Ugh!

 

[kingston_toon]

Heathrow Express is the biggest waste of money in the world. Not sure why anyone would ever choose to use it unless their hotel was right next to Paddington! Hopefully it disappears in the next few years to be replaced with a higher frequency Elizabeth line service, so people can connect straight from Central London to Heathrow more frequently.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The racket made by the staff on the platform makes it quite hard to confuse the two. They go on and on and on about the train on the platform being an Express service and to remain on the platform for the Elizabeth line.

Hopefully it disappears in the next few years

Slightly selfish comment, I think, to hope a busy service is cancelled purely as you don't use it. You only need to look at the double 387s leaving Paddington to see how busy many Express departures are. You already have the option of a frequent Elizabeth line service if you don't want to take the Express.

 

[Via Bank]

Heathrow is one of the biggest airports in the world for connecting flights! I'd imagine it is used a LOT for that purpose in terms of the trains between terminals. I've never made a connection in Heathrow myself, but plenty of people do on a daily basis. Happens often enough on British Airways at least!

Having looked it up, apparently the purple "flight connections" signs lead to shuttle buses that run between the terminals (although I'm not quite sure what the benefit is, they claim to 'not leave the passenger-only area' but people still need to be re-screened for security.)

I do struggle to believe this makes up the bulk of HEX's custom though!

 

[Jamiescott1]

Having looked it up, apparently the purple "flight connections" signs lead to shuttle buses that run between the terminals (although I'm not quite sure what the benefit is, they claim to 'not leave the passenger-only area' but people still need to be re-screened for security.)

I do struggle to believe this makes up the bulk of HEX's custom though!

Most flight connection passengers stay aiside meaning you don't have to clear customs or uk immigration. If connecting passengers need to travel between terminals then they do it airside on the dedicated buses.

 

[yorksrob]

I remember using the train back from Heathrow a few years back and whilst the booking hall area was plastered with signs and posters for Heathrow express, Heathrow Connect had one small advertisement down by the floor.

One would hope that the Elizabeth Line gets a little more prominence nowadays !

 

[Techniquest]

Heathrow Express is the biggest waste of money in the world. Not sure why anyone would ever choose to use it unless their hotel was right next to Paddington! Hopefully it disappears in the next few years to be replaced with a higher frequency Elizabeth line service, so people can connect straight from Central London to Heathrow more frequently.

Yes, I'm sure you're right, it's such a waste of money to run a surprisingly popular service!

I will give you an example of how it was actually very useful to me, and that was on Friday. I left the baggage reclaim area at 1704, probably nearer 1705, and I was booked on a train out of Paddington to head back to Hereford at 1757. No way would I risk such a connection using the Piccadilly line. I also had to get food, following a long flight, so the quicker I got to Paddington the better.

I jumped on the 1710 Express to Paddington and was there 20 minutes later, happy days. It has to be said too that I like the 387s, and that I find Heathrow Express to be a much more dignified way of arriving at/leaving from Heathrow than the Piccadilly line!

 

[Falcon1200]

People have generally just come off a horrendous flight, half an hour waiting on the tarmac, bus gate, queues at immigration/passport control/customs/etc., are unfamiliar with the system and with the value of sterling, and will jump at all the signage mentioning the "fast train to London," not necessarily realising that (a) Paddington is pretty out-of-the-way for most places, and (b) £25 is appalling.

Surely most, if not all, people with the resources, financial and otherwise, to fly from far away to Heathrow would have spent a little time checking how they were going to get from the Airport to wherever their final destination might be? After all, thanks to the internet that is simpler than it has ever been, no matter where in the world you are.

 

[43066]

Heathrow Express is the biggest waste of money in the world. Not sure why anyone would ever choose to use it unless their hotel was right next to Paddington! Hopefully it disappears in the next few years to be replaced with a higher frequency Elizabeth line service, so people can connect straight from Central London to Heathrow more frequently.

A waste of money for whom? Clearly some people still use it, and are prepared to pay the prices charged. Presumably it has also performed well enough financially to still be considered viable.

Of course it remains to be seen how it fares (no pun intended!) now that the EL line is open, and in an era where employers are less willing to fork out for expensive business travel, which will have been a substantial part of HEx’s historical market. Hence it makes sense to have it operated by a flexible fleet of 387s that could easily be repurposed in the future.

 

[Bungle]

Yes, I'm sure you're right, it's such a waste of money to run a surprisingly popular service!

I will give you an example of how it was actually very useful to me, and that was on Friday. I left the baggage reclaim area at 1704, probably nearer 1705, and I was booked on a train out of Paddington to head back to Hereford at 1757. No way would I risk such a connection using the Piccadilly line. I also had to get food, following a long flight, so the quicker I got to Paddington the better.

I jumped on the 1710 Express to Paddington and was there 20 minutes later, happy days. It has to be said too that I like the 387s, and that I find Heathrow Express to be a much more dignified way of arriving at/leaving from Heathrow than the Piccadilly line!

Totally agree, it’s very expensive but has its place. I have used it in the past to make connections from central London which I’d otherwise have missed, and got to my destination over an hour later. Late at night, that’s worth the premium to me. It is also very much more civilised and relaxing than the Piccadilly Line.

Before I fly anywhere I make sure I know what I’m doing with onward transport, be it train / tram / bus / taxi or whatever, and what the options are. There’s an argument to say if people can’t be bothered to do that and just take the ‘easiest’ option, that’s their fault.

What I don’t like is the little desk selling exclusively Heathrow Express tickets on the way out of arrivals before the traveller has had chance to realise the Tube or Elizabeth line is also an option - that seems a bit sneaky to me. But none of it is as bad as Gatwick and the Gatwick Express / not Gatwick Express ticket situation down there, with much cheaper options available on trains nearly as fast, which DOES strike me as a rip-off.

 

[PGAT]

There’s an entire thread on this but I just need to put this out here.

Removing Heathrow Express does not give room for more Elizabeth Line services.

 

[Clarence Yard]

You have to realise what it was designed to do. It was to provide a fast service to/from Heathrow for those well off people who lived and/or worked in London and whose main onward method of transport from Paddington is the car or taxi, not the tube.

It was all to do with maintaining London’s competitiveness with other cities, in the eyes of some very influential people. The fact that the Airport can also “saturate” market it to others, in order to gain substantial revenue, is a bit of a bonus and has always been part of their plan.

Like many others at the start, I wondered how it would make any money, until I saw some of the clientele getting out at Paddington. I also discovered that a lot of the cost was being paid for on the Airport RAB. A bit of a win-win for both the Government and the Airport.

 

[43066]

But none of it is as bad as Gatwick and the Gatwick Express / not Gatwick Express ticket situation down there, with much cheaper options available on trains nearly as fast, which DOES strike me as a rip-off.

This is where it may start to struggle.

The EL takes all of 20 minutes longer - I take the point that’s a bigger time differential then GatEx/TL/Southern - but it’s a lot of extra money to pay if it’s coming out of your own pocket! And then of course, if you’re continuing beyond Paddington, as many are, the time saving would be reduced to almost nothing.

You have to realise what it was designed to do. It was to provide a fast service to/from Heathrow for those well off people who lived and/or worked in London and whose main onward method of transport from Paddington is the car or taxi, not the tube.

It will be interesting to see whether enough of those people exist to justify it going forward.

 

[Techniquest]

@Bungle That's a good point regarding Gatwick Express. No such confusion thankfully with Heathrow.

I do think that the First Class seats on Heathrow Express could be got rid of, considering how people will sit in there on a Standard Class ticket and not get charged extra because the train's moving and the journey's nearly over. No I'm not even slightly bitter about being the only one in First Class who actually paid the correct fare!

 

[PGAT]

I’m pretty sure GatEx was simply to get airport travellers off the overcrowded commuter trains and earn a cheeky extra.