Should I pursue a career as a pilot or a train driver?

[Jack_Joyce30]

Hi all, I am new to this forum but I’ve had a few lingering questions about my future career.

I’m currently 19 and about to start university studying aviation management specialist which also has career links to the railways (Eurostar, TGV, and Thalys). I have always wanted to be a commercial pilot since a very young age because I love to travel, I equally love the aviation industry, It’s challenges/downfalls and the potential pay (again, I want a handsomely paying job so I can afford nice things in life).

Evaluating my current situation, I’ve done about 20 hours on my CAA PPL and that’s already cost a fortune and I’m not even a quarter through the training. It’s going to cost me around £90-£100k for the whole lot which means I’m either going to have to take out a mortgage or somehow save that money and pay it upfront. Looking at that, it seems very unrealistic. Because of the sheer cost of training, I’ve been researching train driving careers and I could always become a pilot later in life.

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[choochoochoo]

I'd say join the railway and get your CPL via a modular route. Then you've still got a job once you've qualified as a pilot.

Also bear in mind there is no guarantee you'll pass the assessments for train driver training. So maybe you want to make your trainee driver applications once you've graduated and are old enough. If you cannot make the driver grade, then maybe do something else on the railway until you've got your CPL.

What you don't want to do is be in a position where you've got a CPL that you then need to pay for yourself to keep current.

What I also would definitely not do, is pay 100k for an integrated course with a fancy training organisation promising to get you in the right hand seat of a shiny jet once you qualify.

 

[Economist]

I'm a train driver instructor who has a PPL and flies recreationally.

Don't bother with the degree, as far as I'm concerned, the only aviation-related degrees that are necessary for a specific career are engineering-related ones. Unless you've got an unllimited money pot it's debt you don't need and it's three/four years not working full-time and saving.

Aviation-wise, Bristow Helicopters run cadet pilot programs through Helicentre where they fully fund the cost of training. They recently ran such a scheme to train SAR pilots, unfortunately it closed yesterday. That being said, as good as those programs are, they will want career helicopter pilots due to the initial cost of their investment, so if you want to fly to exotic places then you'd want to look elsewhere.

The commercial aviation industry in the UK is not looking promising. There are some airlines like Easyjet which run "mentored" programmes but be aware that they can pull the conditional offer attached to their MPL training schemes for any reason they like, so whillst it may be slightly better than a straight integrated course, it doesn't offer a great deal of security. Aer Lingus used to run a fully sponsored scheme before the pandemic, keep an eye out for it though bear in mind it was extremely competitive. The only place with a booming commercial aviation industry is the US, if you have the right to work there I imagine you could do very well.

In the meantime, I'd suggest looking for operational roles on the railway. Network Rail recruit signallers, there are a lot of redundancies at Network Rail at the moment, so signaller role recruitment might be very competitive for external recruits. London Underground recruit CSAs who can move to the Train Operator grade there and earn reasonably well, however their licence is not transferable to Network Rail infrastructure, so you would have to start from scratch if you wanted to drive for a TOC. Driving for a TOC on your own licence requires you to be at least 21, though some companies will take trainees who are 20. The average age of a trainee is typically mid-late thirties, though a completed PPL will give you a slight advantage during the recruitment process since you'll have plenty of experiences to talk about.

 

[16.19]

Hi all, I am new to this forum but I’ve had a few lingering questions about my future career.

I’m currently 19 and about to start university studying aviation management specialist which also has career links to the railways (Eurostar, TGV, and Thalys). I have always wanted to be a commercial pilot since a very young age because I love to travel, I equally love the aviation industry, It’s challenges/downfalls and the potential pay (again, I want a handsomely paying job so I can afford nice things in life).

Evaluating my current situation, I’ve done about 20 hours on my CAA PPL and that’s already cost a fortune and I’m not even a quarter through the training. It’s going to cost me around £90-£100k for the whole lot which means I’m either going to have to take out a mortgage or somehow save that money and pay it upfront. Looking at that, it seems very unrealistic. Because of the sheer cost of training, I’ve been researching train driving careers and I could always become a pilot later in life.

Any advice would be appreciated.

I’d go with train driving.

 

[niggill617@gma]

I found elementary flying training EASA Part-FCL SEP(land) far more challenging / rewarding than train driver training. Driving pays well and can be demanding at times.

 

[Ludus]

I recently got an offer for well known pilot cadet programme - unfortunately I had to turn it down as I couldn't afford the £120k fee. I've been trying to slowly complete training modularly ever since but it's so costly I can't see myself ever completing training on my current salary. I made the most difficult decision of my life and decided to leave my dream behind and pursue other potential career options.

The only thing that remotely interested me after flying was train driving, I can tell you now, getting a train driving job is beyond ridiculous. I found pilot selection easy in comparison. I haven't even got past the application stage after 5 different applications... so here's the crux - flight training is much easier to get into but is extremely expensive, the aviation industry is also very volatile and you could lose your job at the drop of a hat (most of my pilot friends have lost their jobs at some point in their careers), on the other hand, train driving is extremely hard to get into but offers funded training and good career stability.

Ultimately neither have worked out for me and I now work in the ambulance service on an apprenticeship Paramedic route. I still fly as much as I can with the intention of one day being able to land that lucrative train driving job - so never give up. I would try and shift your focus towards the rail industry and then maybe look into aviation later on in life, the industry is just too unstable at the moment - head over to PPRuNe for further advice on flight training, although do be warned it can be very doom and gloom on there

 

[Snow1964]

My nephew opted for the pilot route, after A levels went straight to pilot school at Southampton (degree not needed). There were a few months in USA where weather is much better to accumulate experience. At the end of it (but this was 6 years ago) virtually a guaranteed job as some airlines were in a waiting list for new candidates.

He ended up with EasyJet (still there and loving it), and started as a First officer (at 20 years old). Subsequent type training is paid by airline through some sort of loan / salary offset.

However, you realistically need your family to loan you some money as the training cost is around £100k. Some students split it and were doing private pilot lessons and pleasure trips to earn money, to be able to complete their training.

So if you can muster the financial backing, get through about 18 months training, a pilot is a very good career, but not one that you can get into on a limited budget.

 

[E27007]

I recently got an offer for well known pilot cadet programme - unfortunately I had to turn it down as I couldn't afford the £120k fee. I've been trying to slowly complete training modularly ever since but it's so costly I can't see myself ever completing training on my current salary. I made the most difficult decision of my life and decided to leave my dream behind and pursue other potential career options.

The only thing that remotely interested me after flying was train driving, I can tell you now, getting a train driving job is beyond ridiculous. I found pilot selection easy in comparison. I haven't even got past the application stage after 5 different applications... so here's the crux - flight training is much easier to get into but is extremely expensive, the aviation industry is also very volatile and you could lose your job at the drop of a hat (most of my pilot friends have lost their jobs at some point in their careers), on the other hand, train driving is extremely hard to get into but offers funded training and good career stability.

Ultimately neither have worked out for me and I now work in the ambulance service on an apprenticeship Paramedic route. I still fly as much as I can with the intention of one day being able to land that lucrative train driving job - so never give up. I would try and shift your focus towards the rail industry and then maybe look into aviation later on in life, the industry is just too unstable at the moment - head over to PPRuNe for further advice on flight training, although do be warned it can be very doom and gloom on there

The key to landing a Train Driver position is the Psychometric Test, is it possible to pay for and sit the test from your own funds?
If you gain a pass , then your application with a pass in hand, stand far more chance of success.
Alternatively, take a job on the railway for a couple of years, such job experience will show a driver recruitment manager, and perhaps demonstrate to yourself, you have what it takes to cope with the railway lifestyle, unsocial duty rostering patterns, not many weekends off, 365 / 24h working, believe me it is not for everyone, especially those with families.

 

[387star]

Train Driving is surely a doddle compared to flying? The latter presumably requires you to be good at maths and physics which is not my area of expertise!!
Also the cockpit has a few more buttons compared to a driving cab

I'd imagine flying must be more fatiguing than driving a train... jet lag etc

 

[T-Karmel]

I haven't even got past the application stage after 5 different applications...

If you gain a pass , then your application with a pass in hand, stand far more chance of success.

Of course having a pass in hand may bring your chances up, even done privately, but I just want to say that Ludus cannot get through the application process yet and having a pass would not get him automatically through that stage. I already held most enhanced passes when I was still applying for other jobs and could not get through application process on some of them.

As long as good application is always a key, I think it often comes to your luck to get through the sift. The volume is just so high they can't even get through all the applications before they reject most of them on default.

Train Driving is surely a doddle compared to flying?

For starters, I'd say it's completely different level of pressure in emergency situations

 

[Toastal]

Well Jack......I’m currently an Airbus A330 Captain with over 15,000hrs, having worked and lived all over the world. I would swap it all in a heartbeat to become a train driver living and working from home. The job security, final salary pension and the piece of mind that brings with it, is invaluable. I have applied for 6 jobs in Scotland and never even made it through the paper sift (given up now) despite having worked in the railway industry many years ago. Anyway, it’s horses for courses, but a career in the Airlines is not stable, nor is it for everyone. I would disagree however that the airline industry in the U.K. is in dire straights from an employment point of view........quite the opposite in fact. This summer has been a disaster for U.K. airlines from a staffing point of view. Add into that, Brexit and lack of pilot training due to the pandemic and I predict a lot of pilot recruitment this winter. Good luck in whatever decision you make. Rgds, T

 

[niggill617@gma]

Well Jack......I’m currently an Airbus A330 Captain with over 15,000hrs, having worked and lived all over the world. I would swap it all in a heartbeat to become a train driver living and working from home. The job security, final salary pension and the piece of mind that brings with it, is invaluable. I have applied for 6 jobs in Scotland and never even made it through the paper sift (given up now) despite having worked in the railway industry many years ago. Anyway, it’s horses for courses, but a career in the Airlines is not stable, nor is it for everyone. I would disagree however that the airline industry in the U.K. is in dire straights from an employment point of view........quite the opposite in fact. This summer has been a disaster for U.K. airlines from a staffing point of view. Add into that, Brexit and lack of pilot training due to the pandemic and I predict a lot of pilot recruitment this winter. Good luck in whatever decision you make. Rgds, T

Do you think you were considered overqualified? Possibly a failing of the recruitment process I would say. The chief flying instructor from my self-hire establishment experienced the same as you.

I wonder how many former airline pilots are train drivers?

 

[Shunted]

Well Jack......I’m currently an Airbus A330 Captain with over 15,000hrs, having worked and lived all over the world. I would swap it all in a heartbeat to become a train driver living and working from home. The job security, final salary pension and the piece of mind that brings with it, is invaluable. I have applied for 6 jobs in Scotland and never even made it through the paper sift (given up now) despite having worked in the railway industry many years ago. Anyway, it’s horses for courses, but a career in the Airlines is not stable, nor is it for everyone. I would disagree however that the airline industry in the U.K. is in dire straights from an employment point of view........quite the opposite in fact. This summer has been a disaster for U.K. airlines from a staffing point of view. Add into that, Brexit and lack of pilot training due to the pandemic and I predict a lot of pilot recruitment this winter. Good luck in whatever decision you make. Rgds, T

They must be seriously picky companies!

 

[daveo]

Depends if you want to keep your feet on the ground!!!

 

[Toastal]

They must be seriously picky companies!

Scotrail!!

Do you think you were considered overqualified? Possibly a failing of the recruitment process I would say. The chief flying instructor from my self-hire establishment experienced the same as you.

I wonder how many former airline pilots are train drivers?

Overqualified......I think unlikely. The train driver recruitment selection is far more stringent than many airlines in my experience. It would have been nice to have given it a go though!

 

[Horizon22]

Do you think you were considered overqualified? Possibly a failing of the recruitment process I would say. The chief flying instructor from my self-hire establishment experienced the same as you.

I wonder how many former airline pilots are train drivers?

Quite a few pilots and air traffic controllers went to become signallers during 2020-2021...only to swiftly leave about 18 months later when the industry bounded back again.

I can't imagine theres many ex-pilots, but there's certainly a fair few ex-cabin crew in guards and driver roles.

 

[niggill617@gma]

Scotrail!!


Overqualified......I think unlikely. The train driver recruitment selection is far more stringent than many airlines in my experience. It would have been nice to have given it a go though!

I stand back in amazement. Even the Rail Safety and Standards Board, stated airline pilots operate within a higher order of magnitude. I had a go on a 737-300 simulator several years ago, with a Training Captain, the whole experience was far more complex than train driving.

 

[E27007]

Do not become too obsessive with Train Driving, it can be very boring, London surburban driving with 100 + platform stops per shift soon wears down even a railway enthusiast,

 

[Bungle]

Well Jack......I’m currently an Airbus A330 Captain with over 15,000hrs, having worked and lived all over the world. I would swap it all in a heartbeat to become a train driver living and working from home. The job security, final salary pension and the piece of mind that brings with it, is invaluable. I have applied for 6 jobs in Scotland and never even made it through the paper sift (given up now) despite having worked in the railway industry many years ago. Anyway, it’s horses for courses, but a career in the Airlines is not stable, nor is it for everyone. I would disagree however that the airline industry in the U.K. is in dire straights from an employment point of view........quite the opposite in fact. This summer has been a disaster for U.K. airlines from a staffing point of view. Add into that, Brexit and lack of pilot training due to the pandemic and I predict a lot of pilot recruitment this winter. Good luck in whatever decision you make. Rgds, T

Can highly endorse all the above. I’m also a captain, 11 years on the A320 series and just approaching 4 on the 737-800.

When I started from scratch in 2006, the training school’s connections made it possible to obtain the funding by way of an unsecured loan (it was roughly half the cost it is now overall, even for a “zero to hero” type course rather than going modular.) It was still a risk - and I was extremely lucky that I ended up in a job at the back end of 2008 when the financial crisis hit but ended up abroad for 10 years.

The issue now is, in my view, the risk/benefit calculation has shifted significantly. The cost of doing an integrated course has roughly doubled, and unless you’re very rich (or have very rich parents) you’d need to be taking out the funding - a big chunk, if not all - as a secured loan. The financial crisis of 2008/9 and the pandemic has demonstrated how fragile the industry is in terms of job security - if you were to lose your job through no fault of your own, would you be able to keep up the enormous repayments to ensure nobody loses the roof over their head? Then throw into that the constant general downward pressure on T&Cs, the disruption that’s becoming more commonplace, and the fatigue the job brings and the effect on family life, and it becomes rather less attractive. It’s quite often absolutely knackering.

I enjoy the job and I’m very lucky as to how it’s worked out, and my wife is extremely supportive with things like my sleep patterns with three young kids in the house, but put it this way - there’s absolutely no way I’ll be encouraging my children to follow me into the industry.

Consider it all very very carefully and don’t just believe what the training establishments tell you.

 

[Toastal]

Can highly endorse all the above. I’m also a captain, 11 years on the A320 series and just approaching 4 on the 737-800.

When I started from scratch in 2006, the training school’s connections made it possible to obtain the funding by way of an unsecured loan (it was roughly half the cost it is now overall, even for a “zero to hero” type course rather than going modular.) It was still a risk - and I was extremely lucky that I ended up in a job at the back end of 2008 when the financial crisis hit but ended up abroad for 10 years.

The issue now is, in my view, the risk/benefit calculation has shifted significantly. The cost of doing an integrated course has roughly doubled, and unless you’re very rich (or have very rich parents) you’d need to be taking out the funding - a big chunk, if not all - as a secured loan. The financial crisis of 2008/9 and the pandemic has demonstrated how fragile the industry is in terms of job security - if you were to lose your job through no fault of your own, would you be able to keep up the enormous repayments to ensure nobody loses the roof over their head? Then throw into that the constant general downward pressure on T&Cs, the disruption that’s becoming more commonplace, and the fatigue the job brings and the effect on family life, and it becomes rather less attractive. It’s quite often absolutely knackering.

I enjoy the job and I’m very lucky as to how it’s worked out, and my wife is extremely supportive with things like my sleep patterns with three young kids in the house, but put it this way - there’s absolutely no way I’ll be encouraging my children to follow me into the industry.

Consider it all very very carefully and don’t just believe what the training establishments tell you.

Bang on the money Bungle my friend.......you totally nailed it!!!

 

[niggill617@gma]

Hi all, I am new to this forum but I’ve had a few lingering questions about my future career.

I’m currently 19 and about to start university studying aviation management specialist which also has career links to the railways (Eurostar, TGV, and Thalys). I have always wanted to be a commercial pilot since a very young age because I love to travel, I equally love the aviation industry, It’s challenges/downfalls and the potential pay (again, I want a handsomely paying job so I can afford nice things in life).

Evaluating my current situation, I’ve done about 20 hours on my CAA PPL and that’s already cost a fortune and I’m not even a quarter through the training. It’s going to cost me around £90-£100k for the whole lot which means I’m either going to have to take out a mortgage or somehow save that money and pay it upfront. Looking at that, it seems very unrealistic. Because of the sheer cost of training, I’ve been researching train driving careers and I could always become a pilot later in life.

Any advice would be appreciated.

The establishment I hire from is also is a well respected training school. I do get the feeling bank of mum and dad comes into play. Two of the instructors have just got jobs as First Officers, so things are moving.

 

[choochoochoo]

We’ve got a couple of ex pilots at our depot. Don’t think they were captains but from what they say about the aviation industry I dont think they’ll be going back to flying.

The job security and the terms and conditions seem so much better than the aviation industry.

One said drivers are treated now like pilots were in the glamour days of aviation.

 

[SteveL9]

The last time I looked in to becoming a pilot (several years ago) I concluded there are only two ways in, either be wealthy (or have people willing to lend you large amounts of money), or join the RAF.

 

[TreacleMiller]

We have pilots joining the railways at the moment for driving jobs....


If you can get a sponsor and are willing to put the hours in, by all means go down the aviation route. You'll find the experiences would directly transfer to that of a train driver.

 

[Mattyblob]

You speak very highly of aviation and don't at all sound enthused about joining the railway, so why exactly are you considering it?

 

[xabi83]

The establishment I hire from is also is a well respected training school. I do get the feeling bank of mum and dad comes into play. Two of the instructors have just got jobs as First Officers, so things are moving.

I’d love to be a pilot I really would it’s been a dream of mine since I was a small child. I have worked on the railway for over 7 years now and if it wasn’t for not having the finances to cover training costs I’d give this up in a heart beat.

 

[niggill617@gma]

I’d love to be a pilot I really would it’s been a dream of mine since I was a small child. I have worked on the railway for over 7 years now and if it wasn’t for not having the finances to cover training costs I’d give this up in a heart beat.

I would say the two ATPLs sum it up very well. It can be financed by loan / being an instructor for awhile at a training school. I was lucky to be able to achieve private flying, financed by train drivers pay. Even the RAF are going through flying training issues.

 

[Economist]

I believe it now takes about six years for the RAF to make an off-the-street applicant earmarked for a pilot role a fully-trained and operational pilot. I believe quite a few people are voluntarily leaving along the way because they are fed up of being held in desk jobs whilst they await the next stage of training. It's a similar story for the Fleet Air Arm too. In the television series, Fighter Pilot, which was broadcast in 1981, the same process took half the time.

If the OP is feeling lucky, I reckon a driver smashing the overtime at one of the better-paying TOCs whilst living on a very modest budget could save in around three years the necessary amount required to get a placed on a self-funded MPL programme with no guarantee of a job at the end. In 1989, British Airways were fully funding the training and paid their newly-qualified pilots around £23k, that's nearly £60k today adjusted for inflation.

 

[Rockhopperr]

Can highly endorse all the above. I’m also a captain, 11 years on the A320 series and just approaching 4 on the 737-800.

When I started from scratch in 2006, the training school’s connections made it possible to obtain the funding by way of an unsecured loan (it was roughly half the cost it is now overall, even for a “zero to hero” type course rather than going modular.) It was still a risk - and I was extremely lucky that I ended up in a job at the back end of 2008 when the financial crisis hit but ended up abroad for 10 years.

The issue now is, in my view, the risk/benefit calculation has shifted significantly. The cost of doing an integrated course has roughly doubled, and unless you’re very rich (or have very rich parents) you’d need to be taking out the funding - a big chunk, if not all - as a secured loan. The financial crisis of 2008/9 and the pandemic has demonstrated how fragile the industry is in terms of job security - if you were to lose your job through no fault of your own, would you be able to keep up the enormous repayments to ensure nobody loses the roof over their head? Then throw into that the constant general downward pressure on T&Cs, the disruption that’s becoming more commonplace, and the fatigue the job brings and the effect on family life, and it becomes rather less attractive. It’s quite often absolutely knackering.

I enjoy the job and I’m very lucky as to how it’s worked out, and my wife is extremely supportive with things like my sleep patterns with three young kids in the house, but put it this way - there’s absolutely no way I’ll be encouraging my children to follow me into the industry.

Consider it all very very carefully and don’t just believe what the training establishments tell you.

Nicely put. I also embarked on a “zero to hero” course with a large training school in 2006. Funded mostly from an enormous bank loan. Qualified mid 2008 with all high grades and first time passes in all flight tests. I won’t bore you with the torture I endured trying to get a job but I was never employed as a pilot. I’ve now been a train driver for 7 years. Wish I’d done it sooner. Will fly for fun now.

 

[choochoochoo]

Nicely put. I also embarked on a “zero to hero” course with a large training school in 2006. Funded mostly from an enormous bank loan. Qualified mid 2008 with all high grades and first time passes in all flight tests. I won’t bore you with the torture I endured trying to get a job but I was never employed as a pilot. I’ve now been a train driver for 7 years. Wish I’d done it sooner. Will fly for fun now.

Pretty much the story I hear from the pilots that are now drivers at our place.