Jorge Da Silva
Established Member
I was reading in the latest rail magazine that maybe more excursions should exist to take advantage of the Leisure market post-COVID? Any thoughts on that? Any ideas what routes could work?
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Should more excursion services exist to take advantage of the leisure market post-COVID?
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Not unless you can find passengers with deep pockets to pay the commercial cost of such services. There are numerous charter companies who provide 'excursions', many of them providing more than one date to go to a particular excursion destination.
If an informed source in another thread is writing about TOC services being scaled back in the May timetable as follows:
then the mainline railway dabbling in excursions isn't really something it should get involved in.
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CBlue
Member
Running services catering purely to "enthusiasts" doesn't tend to make economic sense either, before anyone feels like throwing that idea out there. Deep pockets, short arms is often the way.
Indeed, the operators of charters are well aware that to make money they need to attract both enthusiasts and those who want a day out to a destination and charge a fare upwards of £100 (and much more for first class / dining etc)
Not many routes could work at present, thanks to BR rationalisation. So many termini reduced to long sidings, with all other trackwork lifted. Trackless platforms just sitting there. Nowhere to stable any extras. In order to attract leisure traffic back to rail, there needs to be a revival of such places. Windermere, Aberystwyth, Tenby, Barry Island, Barnstaple, Newquay, and others. Whitby is the template. What I have outlined has been done there and the benefits are clear. I know the NYMR were behind it but, NR were involved as well. Main line excursions need stabling or, ECS journeys to the nearest main line depot are required, which increases costs and is environmentally unfriendly.
The routes that could work now are, Scarborough, Skegness, Cleethorpes, Gt Yarmouth, Margate, Littlehampton, Bognor, Bournemouth, Weymouth, Paignton, Penzance, and others, because they still have stabling sidnigs nearby.
The routes that could work now are, Scarborough, Skegness, Cleethorpes, Gt Yarmouth, Margate, Littlehampton, Bognor, Bournemouth, Weymouth, Paignton, Penzance, and others, because they still have stabling sidnigs nearby.
GrimsbyPacer
Established Member
There used to be a Derby to Scarborough service that was popular, in same vein as Nottingham to Skegness. People like a simple timetable over one service only.
Summer Weekend services could be best to extend in my opinion, say:
Leicester to Grimsby, to Cleethorpes.
Liverpool to Norwich, to Yarmouth.
Manchester to Hull, to Bridlington.
These would greatly help the seaside economies of the towns, but of course rail is not run for community benefit but for money unlike before.
Summer Weekend services could be best to extend in my opinion, say:
Leicester to Grimsby, to Cleethorpes.
Liverpool to Norwich, to Yarmouth.
Manchester to Hull, to Bridlington.
These would greatly help the seaside economies of the towns, but of course rail is not run for community benefit but for money unlike before.
There really doesn't. People don't just go to the seaside. They catch trains to London, cities, places they can shop, to meet people and family, sporting events. Some rose-tinted idea that loads of people are going to want to go on special excursion trains to the seaside at the economic price of providing the service isn't necessarily a market to chase.
Isn't leisure travel recovering quite well without intervention in the level of service provided?
It needs to justify the level of taxation which goes into providing and supporting the service.
There are two excursions an hour from London to Bournemouth and one an hour from Manchester and Birmingham (in normal times).
It seems very popular. Not cheap at all of course and is a day out provided commercially partly by using volunteer labour.
Equally, WCRC operate viable excursions from across the North to Scarborough and the Settle & Carlisle line on a weekly basis in the Summer.
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47827
Member
Without a BR style railway and lots of spare stock/locos that everyone signs knocking about and fares in line with the cheaper advance tickets it'll just be the current selections of niche stuff until all the current band of wealthy, eccentric or sometimes arguably unhinged characters who hold all the keys and assets are all one by one marched off to the nearest dementia home or are lost to the world entirely.
There are few persons close to youth at top/ownership levels, a complex web of bias/politics within the industry, and limited flexibility (rightly or wrongly) at meaningful levels in that gentleman's club, with some degree of arrogance and attitude, meaning it can't get too far beyond what the industry can currently offer.
It does for what's left running now but would be the opposite to what you'd need for dozens of BR merrymaker style sets and budget excursions, assuming the itineraries were both commercially and operationally possible on the modern network. None of the above is in any way a criticism of the pleasures that can still be offered to those who are able to travel and can afford to use them. Obviously they still bring pleasure to 100,000s of people annually and help boost a few local economies plus provide employment for hundreds of catering staff and traincrew when they run so the people keeping the current businesses going have created something that is far from all bad.
It would be nice if some of the above weren't so, but the majority of the final parties who catered for the the more budget ends of the market have finished over the last 15 to 20 years for reasons to retirement, inability to source suitable trains at viable prices (and offer sensible fares), fall in demand (pre covid) and financial ruin! So gone are the likes of Green Express, NENTA and Chester MRC/Mid Cheshire Rail Users, North East Railtours (one of the most recent retirees) and Past Time Rail etc. A few examples of the casualties from the last 2 decades.
There are few persons close to youth at top/ownership levels, a complex web of bias/politics within the industry, and limited flexibility (rightly or wrongly) at meaningful levels in that gentleman's club, with some degree of arrogance and attitude, meaning it can't get too far beyond what the industry can currently offer.
It does for what's left running now but would be the opposite to what you'd need for dozens of BR merrymaker style sets and budget excursions, assuming the itineraries were both commercially and operationally possible on the modern network. None of the above is in any way a criticism of the pleasures that can still be offered to those who are able to travel and can afford to use them. Obviously they still bring pleasure to 100,000s of people annually and help boost a few local economies plus provide employment for hundreds of catering staff and traincrew when they run so the people keeping the current businesses going have created something that is far from all bad.
It would be nice if some of the above weren't so, but the majority of the final parties who catered for the the more budget ends of the market have finished over the last 15 to 20 years for reasons to retirement, inability to source suitable trains at viable prices (and offer sensible fares), fall in demand (pre covid) and financial ruin! So gone are the likes of Green Express, NENTA and Chester MRC/Mid Cheshire Rail Users, North East Railtours (one of the most recent retirees) and Past Time Rail etc. A few examples of the casualties from the last 2 decades.
They'd only help the economies of the towns if people are actually on board those trains. If you're going to the seaside chances are you're taking a day's worth of stuff which is easier to shove in the boot of your car than lug to/from stations. Especially if you've got kids or aren't as mobile. What exists at Cleethorpes or Bridlington to encourage people to visit for a day at the beach?
Surely if rail commuting is still not back to pre-covid, there are resources to cater for excursions. Why not run a saturday only Sheffield- Scarborough return? or extend a leeds - Morecambe back to Wakefield saturdays only. Not for enthusiasts, but for the bucket and spade crowd. The M_F service patterns are wrong for the weekends - lets sort them out.
johnnychips
Established Member
There is an hourly train from Sheffield to Scarborough, seven days a week!
I am aware that a number of coach based excursions, both to the seaside and inland destinations currently take place. These must cater for something, so is there any reason these couldn’t be put back onto the railway. If passengers were to use the railway on a day excursion and found the experience pleasant enough, what’s to stop them beginning to use the railway ordinarily from that point onwards?
Jorge Da Silva
Established Member
That’s what i was thinking there are excursions by coaches are any of these feasible on the railway? Like the Staycation Express was very successful.
Finding 40 or 50 people who want to go to destinations on a coach is somewhat easier than finding 400 to 500 people to go by train. The railway is at its most efficient level when it moves large numbers of people from A to B. What exactly is wrong with people going using coaches when they are the most efficient form of transport for a given journey?
It reportedly doesn't cover its costs through fare income.
The coach can get much closer to people's houses. The passengers are taken straight from the pickup to the destination, usually with a cheerful guide, and the coach won't leave for home until they're all back on board.
47827
Member
Road coaches frequently get better schedules than charters now too, something I forgot to mention earlier. The issue is that they are susceptible to delays on motorways very often due to travelling to resorts such as Blackpool and returning at peak times where holiday or daytripper traffic will snarl up various areas. Saw umpteen examples of that in the school holidays especially last year.
Also worth pointing out that the coach excursion market is a shadow of what it once was in terms of trips to the seaside in particular.
Putting some costs on it, a typical day excursion by a coach will cost the coach operator about £400 marginal cost plus, say, the same again to cover overheads, cost of sales, and ‘depreciation’ of the coach (more likely to finance the borrowing). So about £15 a seat, charge £20 and there’s your profit.
A typical day trip by rail will cost at least £1000 just for the crew, before you’ve bought any diesel, hired a train, sold tickets, paid track access charges, or anything else.
47827
Member
Diesel/electric day trips generally £30k to £50k (but can go higher occasionally) excluding advertising and meals etc, depending on itinerary, choice of stock and how many expensive preserved locos or third party hires you may wish to throw in. It can be a tiny bit cheaper for shorter rakes of stock with some providers but knock off a grand or so per coach at the absolute most usually. Steam add £5k to £15k on normal costs depending on how complex you want to make it. Ranging from say Carnforth to York with an unspecified loco off shed to Scotsman and Tornado paired up London to the North East back with various moves and ECS for the stock just to illustrate the point. If you allow for several other hidden overheads that the passenger doesn't overly consider behind the scenes then you'll see why current standard and first class fares are now generally in 3 digits for a day trip. The Premier Dining can be £60 to £80 a head +VAT to get a competent caterer who provide trained chefs and serving staffs plus restaurant style food albeit with set menus. Generally the fare increase is higher though because you need at least 1, usually Mk1 kitchen, and you lose 64 standard or 42 first class seats on an average train to accommodate that kitchen.
It also rather depends what is meant by "excursions".
Does it mean (as it did back in the 1970s) one-off trains from x to y (and back again) with a specified, relatively low, fare or - as seems to be what some on here are suggesting - existing timetabled services on which specific fares would be offered?
Jorge Da Silva
Established Member
It was talking about the rail rambler excursion trains from 1975 until 1990 linking the Lancashire towns
It mentions it was a through train with cheap fares and a package day out.
The OP question was what routes, that has been answered. How it is done is a different question. There were cheap fares on the Bournemouth line thanks to the (I think) BRTA or similar. Bournemouth Rail Travel Association. BR co-operated with them to allow bargain fares on selected trains. Great value. I think they were only from Bomo not to it. it ended with privatisation, as the TOC wasn't interested in collaborating. I may still have the rather bitter letter from the organiser announcing the end. If the costs of running no frills excursions these days are too high, then it is the cost structure in the privatised railway that is at fault, not the destinations. It is out of town councils hands and in the hands of the rail industry.
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The Planner
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How much should they cost?
Ah, you see, but they're not operated with knackered coaches hauled by celebrity traction, so they don't count
Yes, they do that.
https://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/destinations-and-offers/days-out-ideas
It isn't unknown to see adverts for journeys to the coast on big posters at underground stations, on board trains, at mainline stations, even on the radio.
Indeed. From my experience, South Eastern, Southern and Great Western are particularly good at this with their groupsave and the Network card (for the first two).
Offers from the Northern cities to Scarborough, Morecambe etc aren't so generous.
Capacity on the trains needing to be filled isn't as generous.
On the other hand, the Northern newspaper offer off-season is a generous offer, there are still fairly cheap advance fares for many Northern routes, it isn't all negative. There is a balance between cannibalising revenue by offering cheaper fares and providing a service all year round.
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