*Should* Network SouthEast return?

[Mikey C]

I'm not even sure that is all that much of an issue.

I doubt the Lancastrians mind the Merseyside taxpayer giving them 4tph to Liverpool rather than the hourly DMU to Maghull they'd probably have otherwise. I similarly doubt the people of Watford are all that fussed about LO going slightly past the border, and I'd imagine anyone who is outside London but has a TfL bus service (e.g. Slough or Staines) are quite happy with it because it's cheaper and better than any of the commercial stuff. There have been issues due to COVID, but that being a 1 in 100 years thing (quite literally, the Spanish flu was about 100 years ago) it wouldn't be a sensible basis to make transport decisions.

I get the feeling that people tend to use it as a vehicle to oppose the Mayoralty if they don't support that person.

People outside the area may (or may not) benefit from better services, but there is a genuine question of political accountability though.

The Metropolitan Line timetable has changed in recent years, so that more off peak trains stop at outer London stations, meaning a slower journey for people outside London. This may be a correct decision, but politically it could be interpreted that TfL are benefitting their electorate at the expense of people who can't vote for the Mayor and assembly.

Someone wanting to complain about their National Rail service from Waltham Cross can complain to their MP as the National Rail network ultimately is the responsibility of the government. By contrast who should a commuter using Theobalds Grove station complain to, as it's a devolved Overground service controlled by the Mayor/TfL ?

When it was mooted that Overground take over the Southeastern Metro routes, what should the Overground boundary be for services which naturally cross the border into Kent, e.g. a stopper from Charing Cross to Gravesend?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

People outside the area may (or may not) benefit from better services, but there is a genuine question of political accountability though.

The Metropolitan Line timetable has changed in recent years, so that more off peak trains stop at outer London stations, meaning a slower journey for people outside London. This may be a correct decision, but politically it could be interpreted that TfL are benefitting their electorate at the expense of people who can't vote for the Mayor and assembly.

Someone wanting to complain about their National Rail service from Waltham Cross can complain to their MP as the National Rail network ultimately is the responsibility of the government. By contrast who should a commuter using Theobalds Grove station complain to, as it's a devolved Overground service controlled by the Mayor/TfL ?

When it was mooted that Overground take over the Southeastern Metro routes, what should the Overground boundary be for services which naturally cross the border into Kent, e.g. a stopper from Charing Cross to Gravesend?

I think the answer here is to restrict the Overground to ex-LUL/Silverlink routes.

 

[Iliketrains123]

New York City controlled commuter trains run into to Connecticut (a different state with different laws) without any problem.

 

[etr221]

New York City controlled commuter trains run into to Connecticut (a different state with different laws) without any problem.

I believe Connecticut has share in providing the service - in terms of finence (and hence rolling stock), and I assume in mangement, though I don't know the details. Similarly for some of the other inter-state commuter operations in the area.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the Waterloo - Exeter and the rest of the limited stop services to Weymouth, Brighton, the Southeastern HS1 Kent, etc, those are similar to Regional Express type.

The thing I remember from BR days is that Regional Railways never operated routes south of the Thames, barring the Wales and West division Salisbury - Southampton - Portsmouth/Brighton, and Dorchester - Weymouth as part of the Bristol - Weymouth route (I believe the GWR was the first company to reach Weymouth ahead of the London & South Western).

If Network SouthEast was to be brought back, perhaps the service branding could be Local (for all/most stations services), Regional Express (for limited stop services with a catering trolley), and High Speed for the HS1 Kent services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If Network SouthEast was to be brought back, perhaps the service branding could be Local (for all/most stations services), Regional Express (for limited stop services with a catering trolley), and High Speed for the HS1 Kent services.

Catering trolley? What's that?

The DB style categorisation doesn't really work on NSE, because it's all geared to getting people to/from London you get a format like this:

Imagine a line A-B-C-D-E
you might have services:
A-B-C stopper
Fast to C then D and E
Fast to E only

It isn't uniform, but that is the general format. So unless you start doing "IC to D then RE" (as DB sometimes do do for oddities like the daily Berchtesgaden IC that runs in an RE path on the branch) the classic categories don't work.

DB used to have a category of StadtExpress that did fit - that was essentially "all stations to the end of the S-bahn line then fast to the Hbf" - but they haven't used that for a while. In that case, that suggests that NSE is probably one in its own right, as that pattern isn't established in other parts of the country, the main reason for it being capacity.

 

[Journeyman]

Catering trolley? What's that?

How many former NSE services still have catering services? The only ones I can think of are the former Thames Trains services now operated by IETs.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

How many former NSE services still have catering services? The only ones I can think of are the former Thames Trains services now operated by IETs.

Catering is still suspended on many of these too presently. But yes I think all the other examples have gone. I suppose the ubiquitous coffee shops at stations replacing station bookstalls will the biggest nail in the coffin for catering on many Network Routes, funny if you think in the late 1990s in the 25 minute journey from Redhill to London you could order a freshly toasted bacon sarnie from a buffet car!

I’d be slightly surprised once things haven’t settled down some form of catering doesn’t return on Waterloo to Exeter, it’s that length of route where people are after the second cuppa etc you think might retain the strongest demand for on train catering.

 

[JonathanH]

funny if you think in the late 1990s in the 25 minute journey from Redhill to London you could order a freshly toasted bacon sarnie from a buffet car!

I was going to pull you up on that one for a moment as the off peak Arun Valley services were trolleys but the Brighton to Victoria slow via Redhill is shown in mid-1990s timetables as having a buffet (ie formed with a BIG unit).

 

[Journeyman]

Catering is still suspended on many of these too presently. But yes I think all the other examples have gone. I suppose the ubiquitous coffee shops at stations replacing station bookstalls will the biggest nail in the coffin for catering on many Network Routes, funny if you think in the late 1990s in the 25 minute journey from Redhill to London you could order a freshly toasted bacon sarnie from a buffet car!

I’d be slightly surprised once things haven’t settled down some form of catering doesn’t return on Waterloo to Exeter, it’s that length of route where people are after the second cuppa etc you think might retain the strongest demand for on train catering.

Sounds about right. I think it's fairly obvious the GWR catering cutbacks are temporary. On SWR COVID was obviously instrumental in the demise of trolleys, but we don't know if they'll ever come back.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I was going to pull you up on that one for a moment as the off peak Arun Valley services were trolleys but the Brighton to Victoria slow via Redhill is shown in mid-1990s timetables as having a buffet (ie formed with a BIG unit).

The standard hourly buffet departures from Victoria in the mid 1990s from Memory were
xx08 Fast Brighton
xx17 Littlehampton
xx32 Brighton via Redhill
xx47 Eastbourne

As you say the xx02 Arun Valleys were trolley with was it 2 each way (or maybe 3 up / 2 down) in the peaks having Buffets?

The xx32 Brighton’s were the only 7 day a week Buffets where throughout the core part of the day all th3 services had buffets, there seemed far less at weekends: on Saturdays only 1 of the 4 Littlehampton circuits had buffets and then on Sundays no Littlehamptons and only 1 of the 4 Eastbourne circuits had buffets, seemed very odd to provide catering every 4th hour! Although I suspect keeping mileage down on buffet units was the key driver as BIGs had higher average annual mileages than CIGs. On Sundays back the; there were very few Brighton fasts, just a couple each way morning and afternoon.