*Should* Network SouthEast return?

[ChiefPlanner]

When one considers the places they served, they weren’t that bad. When LU took over the DC stations I remember one of the first “quick win” jobs was to have a load of bullet holes removed from Harlesden station!

If my memory is right, the “personal security” issues were actually more focussed on the DC lines than the NLL. LU taking over the dodgy bit from Queen’s Park to Wembley Central would probably have resolved most of that even if it had stayed with Silverlink.

Places like Kensal Green, Harlesden and Stonebridge Park were certainly pretty menacing at night in the late 90s / early 2000s.

I suppose that 99% reliability and 94% punctuality was not too bad really.


The desperate class 117 DMU's on the Barking line were a challenge and the conversion of Willesden to Clapham to 313's was a major improvement.

Safety - well the DC had an impressive CCTV system and the staff were excellent and proactive , they kept the lid on things - without which it would have been anarchy. Kensal Green to North Wembley and Carpenders Park to Watford High St were the worst sections. The North London got worse the further east you got - with special mention of Dalston to Stratford (LL) - the North Woolwich line was so underused there was hardly any reported crime.

Chris Green noted on his arrival from Scotland that the DC line carried more passengers than their flagship route , and started off "Operation Sparkle" to pull things up a bit. We could have done much better with a more generous station staffing level but the franchise subsidy levels were too tight really.

I suppose there were other contenders in the league - such as certain sections of Kent.

 

[Wolfie]

It certainly wasn’t timeless though, because if you look at pictures of units in NSE livery and imagine them in use today, it would look horrendously dated. Look at the stations on the Northern City Line that, until recently, had NSE branding - it just looks old fashioned.

Old fashioned? I would disagree. The stations that you mention just looked old and uncared for.

I suppose that 99% reliability and 94% punctuality was not too bad really.


The desperate class 117 DMU's on the Barking line were a challenge and the conversion of Willesden to Clapham to 313's was a major improvement.

Safety - well the DC had an impressive CCTV system and the staff were excellent and proactive , they kept the lid on things - without which it would have been anarchy. Kensal Green to North Wembley and Carpenders Park to Watford High St were the worst sections. The North London got worse the further east you got - with special mention of Dalston to Stratford (LL) - the North Woolwich line was so underused there was hardly any reported crime.

Chris Green noted on his arrival from Scotland that the DC line carried more passengers than their flagship route , and started off "Operation Sparkle" to pull things up a bit. We could have done much better with a more generous station staffing level but the franchise subsidy levels were too tight really.

I suppose there were other contenders in the league - such as certain sections of Kent.

I'm surprised that it was as reliable as you say but l certainly don't doubt your word.

 

[Hadders]

It certainly wasn’t timeless though, because if you look at pictures of units in NSE livery and imagine them in use today, it would look horrendously dated. Look at the stations on the Northern City Line that, until recently, had NSE branding - it just looks old fashioned.

The Northern City Line looks horrendous whatever style of branding you use. I suggest you take a look at Downham Market for a more realistic comparison.

 

[Snow1964]

If it was to happen (which I think is unlikely) then maybe the boundary needs rethinking.

Its rather a grey area when you get west of Basingstoke or north of Cambridge etc. Some trains terminate there but should it be uniquely Network SouthEast beyond there, of course convenient to run trains to further but should trains to Bournemouth, Norwich, Oxford etc be treated the same.

It is messy on some lines as effectively have inner suburban trains, outer suburban and long distance. As Examples from Waterloo to Woking, Basingstoke, Weymouth. Or Kings Cross to Welwyn, Hitchin, Peterborough. But on others Fenchurch Street only really have one type. So how far for each type to be a boundary

 

[Ianno87]

View attachment 93195
View attachment 93196
Would certainly brighten up a 700 to bring back the old Aquafresh Livery ... With new DDA Compliant Doors!

Bookmark that for when somebody plonks a "hertiage" livery on a 700 when they near the end of their lives....

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the use of Rail Alphabet looks dated, it's a utilitarian and not very modern looking font. The colours don't per se, indeed Chiltern continued to use them until not very long ago.

 

[Gareth]

I think everyone has a halcyon view of what was the case when they were growing up/coming of age.

Not me. For me, it was the early days of privatisation: a mess of branded services (still largely the case, to be fair), Arriva Trains Merseyside, Railtrack, signal SN109, Hatfield, Potters Bar. The reputation that the railway was dangerous, which took years to turn around.

Crap times.

 

[Non Multi]

I think the use of Rail Alphabet looks dated, it's a utilitarian and not very modern looking font. The colours don't per se, indeed Chiltern continued to use them until not very long ago.

And yet... NR's bringing a tweaked version back to its stations. Looks very 1970s.

 

[Fincra5]

The Northern City Line looks horrendous whatever style of branding you use. I suggest you take a look at Downham Market for a more realistic comparison.

I personally think Downham Market looks superb! To me it shows the NSE Brand can still look modern.

 

[bramling]

I personally think Downham Market looks superb! To me it shows the NSE Brand can still look modern.

Downham looks nice for sure, but to my eyes the signage doesn’t look quite right, but I can’t put my finger on why.

Perhaps others here are right that it’s missing something more traditional in terms of rolling stock, in this case not a slammer but perhaps a NSE-livery 317/2 in the platform.

I think the use of Rail Alphabet looks dated, it's a utilitarian and not very modern looking font. The colours don't per se, indeed Chiltern continued to use them until not very long ago.

Something only looks dated because we’re no longer used to it. Bring it back and within a year or two it wouldn’t feel dated any more.

The same has happened with LU. They changed to New Johnston back around the 1980s (someone will have to remind me of the exact time that came in), then a couple of decades later they devised a third version which essentially went back to using elements of the very original version. It’s odd that it’s now the 1980s version which looks dated, to me at least.

I suppose that 99% reliability and 94% punctuality was not too bad really.


The desperate class 117 DMU's on the Barking line were a challenge and the conversion of Willesden to Clapham to 313's was a major improvement.

Safety - well the DC had an impressive CCTV system and the staff were excellent and proactive , they kept the lid on things - without which it would have been anarchy. Kensal Green to North Wembley and Carpenders Park to Watford High St were the worst sections. The North London got worse the further east you got - with special mention of Dalston to Stratford (LL) - the North Woolwich line was so underused there was hardly any reported crime.

Chris Green noted on his arrival from Scotland that the DC line carried more passengers than their flagship route , and started off "Operation Sparkle" to pull things up a bit. We could have done much better with a more generous station staffing level but the franchise subsidy levels were too tight really.

I suppose there were other contenders in the league - such as certain sections of Kent.

I certainly remember the 117s on Willesden to Clapham, they did very much feel like an anachronism at the time.

Yes those performance figures I’d say are pretty respectable, especially given the amount of freight the NLL had to share with, and the way the DC line had to share with the Bakerloo, with the latter having some quite long signal sections north of Stonebridge Park.

It was the security issues which I think ruined it. The DC stations are quite cavernous and that probably didn’t help. TfL have benefitted from the fact the areas concerned have improved since those days. I haven’t been up that way at night for ages, wonder what it’s like today? I can imagine Harlesden is still a bit threatening at times.

Surprised about the east end of the NLL, as even in those days it could be pretty busy. I presume we’re largely talking about the extremities of the day when bad stuff happened, or stuff like booking offices being attacked?

 

[Gareth]

It certainly wasn’t timeless though, because if you look at pictures of units in NSE livery and imagine them in use today, it would look horrendously dated. Look at the stations on the Northern City Line that, until recently, had NSE branding - it just looks old fashioned.

I thought this looked pretty nice and still does...

 

[bramling]

I thought this looked pretty nice and still does...

What looks old fashioned there are the destination board, and the destination / set number displays on the train - very 1980s. One has to be careful conflating NSE branding as dated with the whole NSE *era* being dated. The latter will include things like solari boards, “posh”-sounding announcements (which personally I would prefer we still had!), staff wearing hats, self-service machines with masses of buttons, et cetera.

 

[Horizon22]

I think the use of Rail Alphabet looks dated, it's a utilitarian and not very modern looking font. The colours don't per se, indeed Chiltern continued to use them until not very long ago.

Didn't I read something about a Rail Alphabet '2' coming out? Slightly more modern serif font?

Anyway I'm in two minds about this. The Southeastern and all of GTR and probably London Overground networks could easily be filtered into a new NSE. SWR probably too. The problem is then arbitrally splitting up the operations up for companies that have been combined for some time, especially at the likes of GWR / GA and LNW. Some TOCs already split out their operations into a "mainline" and "metro" service which might give some idea, but the lines become very blurred. Saying that, whichever way you do it will always have weird geographic anomalies that don't neatly fit.

I'm more a fan of a regional geographic approach - one that covers "South Capital" (Southeastern & GTR / SWR), Anglia (GA, C2C, maybe some of current EMR), Western (GWR and SWR but might be too big). A "Central" area would include Chiltern too - all very rough.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Downham looks nice for sure, but to my eyes the signage doesn’t look quite right, but I can’t put my finger on why.

Perhaps others here are right that it’s missing something more traditional in terms of rolling stock, in this case not a slammer but perhaps a NSE-livery 317/2 in the platform.



Something only looks dated because we’re no longer used to it. Bring it back and within a year or two it wouldn’t feel dated any more.

The same has happened with LU. They changed to New Johnston back around the 1980s (someone will have to remind me of the exact time that came in), then a couple of decades later they devised a third version which essentially went back to using elements of the very original version. It’s odd that it’s now the 1980s version which looks dated, to me at least.



I certainly remember the 117s on Willesden to Clapham, they did very much feel like an anachronism at the time.

Yes those performance figures I’d say are pretty respectable, especially given the amount of freight the NLL had to share with, and the way the DC line had to share with the Bakerloo, with the latter having some quite long signal sections north of Stonebridge Park.

It was the security issues which I think ruined it. The DC stations are quite cavernous and that probably didn’t help. TfL have benefitted from the fact the areas concerned have improved since those days. I haven’t been up that way at night for ages, wonder what it’s like today? I can imagine Harlesden is still a bit threatening at times.

Surprised about the east end of the NLL, as even in those days it could be pretty busy. I presume we’re largely talking about the extremities of the day when bad stuff happened, or stuff like booking offices being attacked?

North Woolwich was reduced to 2 tph in order to give an all day 4 tph Stratford - Richmond , which probably repressed demand a bit but it was the correct thing to do as demand was far greater to the west. To be fair "things were done" to improve security such as the dedicated BTP resources at line of route stations , security guards on the DC . a zero graffiti policy on trains with special heavy cleans , and enjoyable zero toleration blitzes on Friday and Saturday evenings. (Enjoyable that there was much appreciation from the passengers , and the BTP reaped a good harvest of generally small crimes) - it was safer to travel on a 313 as the ones with CCTV were diagrammed to the DC and the passengers were more kept together than on a longer 1972 Bakerloo , with no CCTV. So it wasn't that the lines were ignored , and the performance was better than the Northampton lines which was often vulnerable to serious perturbations from a wide range of sources , plus appalling engineering led disruptions in the early days of West Coast route modernisation. (and it got worse after my departure in 1999!)

Back to NSE - compromised by the recession of 1989 onwards and the inevitable stagnation in the years before 1996 due to "you know what" - the concept of "One railway for London" was superb and the principles of good multi-functional integrated management , strong marketing , improved standards , free car parking in the off peak etc were pretty powerful and can never be underemphasised - NSE nearly "broke even" , and could have done more with funding , imagine if Crossrail 1 had been carried out to the original plan.?

Didn't I read something about a Rail Alphabet '2' coming out? Slightly more modern serif font?

Anyway I'm in two minds about this. The Southeastern and all of GTR and probably London Overground networks could easily be filtered into a new NSE. SWR probably too. The problem is then arbitrally splitting up the operations up for companies that have been combined for some time, especially at the likes of GWR / GA and LNW. Some TOCs already split out their operations into a "mainline" and "metro" service which might give some idea, but the lines become very blurred. Saying that, whichever way you do it will always have weird geographic anomalies that don't neatly fit.

I'm more a fan of a regional geographic approach - one that covers "South Capital" (Southeastern & GTR / SWR), Anglia (GA, C2C, maybe some of current EMR), Western (GWR and SWR but might be too big). A "Central" area would include Chiltern too - all very rough.

Remember - Thames and Chiltern were joined together - but split for franchising , and the former of course strayed well into the South Midlands and Cotswolds. A sensible regional approach has some deep benefits.

 

[Horizon22]

Remember - Thames and Chiltern were joined together - but split for franchising , and the former of course strayed well into the South Midlands and Cotswolds. A sensible regional approach has some deep benefits.

Quite - it's the reason we have anomalies like Bedwyn (for terminating trains) and Worcester in the Network Rail Card area! I think our regional areas are also much further defined that style of trains (IC/RR) which are often much more blurred.

 

[Mikey C]

Inter City still makes sense as a concept, and even more when so many of the services are using the same type of "government led" train.

Network Southeast also makes some sense, as London commuter routes dominate the southeast and spread a significant distance outside of London thanks to long distance commuting. Unfortunately the old IC/NSE split created a arbitrary split, as many IC routes were also London commuter routes, e.g. Swindon to London which is a far shorter distance than say the NSE route to Exeter

And it creates a rather London centric view of things. Is a Chiltern service between Marylebone and Birmingham a "London and Southeast" service or a "West Midlands" railway service coming under the West Midlands mayor?

 

[tbtc]

I'm not saying that this is just nostalgia for a livery that only lasted around a decade (shorter than many subsequent TOCs) but after over seventy five posts about "why we should bring back NSE" it's noticeable that there's essentially nothing that would be an actual benefit for ordinary passengers (other than the all important Shrewsbury to Truro market, of course)...

NSE was a smart looking livery after the drab BR colours, maybe the red/ white/ blue would work well in Boris Johnson's "the Union flag must fly in Government buildings every day of the year" patriotic post-Brexit Britain, but, other than patriotic colours, what benefits would there be?

Going back to a confusing combination of lines that goes no further than Bedford in one direction but all the way to Exeter in another (but not Victoria to Gatwick, since that was clearly "InterCity"! )?

We'd have to chop the Marylebone - Snow Hill services somewhere to keep the liveries nice and tidy?

We'd have to scrap the fairly successful/ popular Overground brand too?

But, the pretty livery...

 

[bramling]

Inter City still makes sense as a concept, and even more when so many of the services are using the same type of "government led" train.

Network Southeast also makes some sense, as London commuter routes dominate the southeast and spread a significant distance outside of London thanks to long distance commuting. Unfortunately the old IC/NSE split created a arbitrary split, as many IC routes were also London commuter routes, e.g. Swindon to London which is a far shorter distance than say the NSE route to Exeter

And it creates a rather London centric view of things. Is a Chiltern service between Marylebone and Birmingham a "London and Southeast" service or a "West Midlands" railway service coming under the West Midlands mayor?

If recreating a NSE/IC split, you could probably make a pretty decent case to say Waterloo to Exeter and Marylebone to Birmingham could well be considered IC routes. Then just limp the remaining Chiltern services in with Thames. You’d be left with a small rump for stuff like Salisbury to Southampton though.

I'm not saying that this is just nostalgia for a livery that only lasted around a decade (shorter than many subsequent TOCs) but after over seventy five posts about "why we should bring back NSE" it's noticeable that there's essentially nothing that would be an actual benefit for ordinary passengers (other than the all important Shrewsbury to Truro market, of course)...

NSE was a smart looking livery after the drab BR colours, maybe the red/ white/ blue would work well in Boris Johnson's "the Union flag must fly in Government buildings every day of the year" patriotic post-Brexit Britain, but, other than patriotic colours, what benefits would there be?

Going back to a confusing combination of lines that goes no further than Bedford in one direction but all the way to Exeter in another (but not Victoria to Gatwick, since that was clearly "InterCity"! )?

We'd have to chop the Marylebone - Snow Hill services somewhere to keep the liveries nice and tidy?

We'd have to scrap the fairly successful/ popular Overground brand too?

But, the pretty livery...

I disagree that this would be just about livery. On the contrary, for me it would be about a south-east/London commuter territory operation, which I think would deliver benefits over the current awkward situation where London is gradually enclaving itself on mayoralty lines.

A reinvented NSE would essentially be a “South East Overground”, but with the mayoral pollution removed.

 

[yorksrob]

I'm not saying that this is just nostalgia for a livery that only lasted around a decade (shorter than many subsequent TOCs) but after over seventy five posts about "why we should bring back NSE" it's noticeable that there's essentially nothing that would be an actual benefit for ordinary passengers (other than the all important Shrewsbury to Truro market, of course)...

NSE was a smart looking livery after the drab BR colours, maybe the red/ white/ blue would work well in Boris Johnson's "the Union flag must fly in Government buildings every day of the year" patriotic post-Brexit Britain, but, other than patriotic colours, what benefits would there be?

Going back to a confusing combination of lines that goes no further than Bedford in one direction but all the way to Exeter in another (but not Victoria to Gatwick, since that was clearly "InterCity"! )?

We'd have to chop the Marylebone - Snow Hill services somewhere to keep the liveries nice and tidy?

We'd have to scrap the fairly successful/ popular Overground brand too?

But, the pretty livery...

There was a general tidying up of things when the original NSE came in. I think that some stations in the South Eastern area could do with this sort of thing again.

Ironically, it's the rest of the network as much as the south east that needs the NSE marketing magic in the post covid world. For Network Railcard, read National Railcard.

 

[Non Multi]

There was a general tidying up of things when the original NSE came in. I think that some stations in the South Eastern area could do with this sort of thing again.

Ironically, it's the rest of the network as much as the south east that needs the NSE marketing magic in the post covid world. For Network Railcard, read National Railcard.

It was a wholesale revival done on a limited budget, not just a lick of paint in the mid 1980s. Remember, some routes were very close to closure by BR.

Does the South East really require another revival on that scale?

 

[yorksrob]

It was a wholesale revival done on a limited budget, not just a lick of paint in the mid 1980s. Remember, some routes were very close to closure by BR.

Does the South East really require another revival on that scale?

Given the current situation, maybe the whole network needs one !

 

[Djgr]

I'm not sure whether what the railways need is a return of NSE but rather a return of Chris Green.

 

[tbtc]

I disagree that this would be just about livery. On the contrary, for me it would be about a south-east/London commuter territory operation, which I think would deliver benefits over the current awkward situation where London is gradually enclaving itself on mayoralty lines.

A reinvented NSE would essentially be a “South East Overground”, but with the mayoral pollution removed.

There certainly seem to be a lot more posts about how nice the old livery was than there are posts about what benefit this would be for ordinary passengers (who might be more concerned with seeing long standing services chopped up to ensure that red/ white/ blue trains don't stretch too far from London than they would be worrying about the "Railway Alphabet" etc)

What's the problem with the Mayoralty? I thought having local representatives responsible for local trains was generally seen as A Good Thing? It certainly helps railways that they are one of the main things that a person elected by millions of people is directly responsible for. I think it helps Londoners that their Mayor is the person lobbying for more funding? Should we get rid of "local" politicians running "local" trains in Scotland/ Wales too?

There was a general tidying up of things when the original NSE came in. I think that some stations in the South Eastern area could do with this sort of thing again.

Ironically, it's the rest of the network as much as the south east that needs the NSE marketing magic in the post covid world. For Network Railcard, read National Railcard.

We've debated the Sunk Cost Fallacy of national railcards a few times, but that doesn't need bringing back NSE to achieve it, that should be a whole separate argument to this nostalgia-fest

 

[Fincra5]

There certainly seem to be a lot more posts about how nice the old livery was than there are posts about what benefit this would be for ordinary passengers (who might be more concerned with seeing long standing services chopped up to ensure that red/ white/ blue trains don't stretch too far from London than they would be worrying about the "Railway Alphabet" etc)

What's the problem with the Mayoralty? I thought having local representatives responsible for local trains was generally seen as A Good Thing? It certainly helps railways that they are one of the main things that a person elected by millions of people is directly responsible for. I think it helps Londoners that their Mayor is the person lobbying for more funding? Should we get rid of "local" politicians running "local" trains in Scotland/ Wales too?

There was a general tidying up of things when the original NSE came in. I think that some stations in the South Eastern area could do with this sort of thing again.



We've debated the Sunk Cost Fallacy of national railcards a few times, but that doesn't need bringing back NSE to achieve it, that should be a whole separate argument to this nostalgia-fest

Not sure its about pure nostalgia. Given the direction of Franchises to a Concession Model, there is benefit to one Branding (like Scotrail or TFW) for certain areas. Just "Operated By:" stickers on the doors

Could it lead to better Value for money? Streamlined Ticketing?

 

[Horizon22]

I'm not saying that this is just nostalgia for a livery that only lasted around a decade (shorter than many subsequent TOCs) but after over seventy five posts about "why we should bring back NSE" it's noticeable that there's essentially nothing that would be an actual benefit for ordinary passengers (other than the all important Shrewsbury to Truro market, of course)...

NSE was a smart looking livery after the drab BR colours, maybe the red/ white/ blue would work well in Boris Johnson's "the Union flag must fly in Government buildings every day of the year" patriotic post-Brexit Britain, but, other than patriotic colours, what benefits would there be?

Going back to a confusing combination of lines that goes no further than Bedford in one direction but all the way to Exeter in another (but not Victoria to Gatwick, since that was clearly "InterCity"! )?

We'd have to chop the Marylebone - Snow Hill services somewhere to keep the liveries nice and tidy?

We'd have to scrap the fairly successful/ popular Overground brand too?

But, the pretty livery...

Having worked / lived around many of these London & SE commuter lines, I think a general combination of these services makes practical sense; they have similar rolling stock, similar operations, similar calling patterns and similar passenger types. LO feels like an arbitary split of various lines that have, for one reason of another (Silverlink demise for example), fallen out of favour that would fit this mode too. However detatching these operations from their wider regional or even inter-city operations is not as easy as it seems. Many crews, rolling stock and stations serve dual purposes. This is not to say it cannot be done reasonably efficiently ( think London Overground from Liverpool St, or the generally smooth transition to TfL Rail from GA and GWR respectively).

This is why I am in two minds - the logical, practical part of me feels there is a great benefit in streamlining and standardise these services, particularly metro operations from London terminals into a clear identity. There are at the moment needless barriers (as with much of privatisation and TfL / NR / TOC splits). On the other hand, it will be attempting to arbitarily split up services that have actually worked much better as a cohesive whole - I think GWR is a better concept than Thames Trains / Wessex Trains / FGW and SWR doesn't neatly fit this model either. Either approach has its benefits and drawbacks.

 

[Wolfie]

If recreating a NSE/IC split, you could probably make a pretty decent case to say Waterloo to Exeter and Marylebone to Birmingham could well be considered IC routes. Then just limp the remaining Chiltern services in with Thames. You’d be left with a small rump for stuff like Salisbury to Southampton though.



I disagree that this would be just about livery. On the contrary, for me it would be about a south-east/London commuter territory operation, which I think would deliver benefits over the current awkward situation where London is gradually enclaving itself on mayoralty lines.

A reinvented NSE would essentially be a “South East Overground”, but with the mayoral pollution removed.

The "mayoral pollution" is essential when London is asked to fund most of it's own upgrades even if they benefit the wider SE or indeed country. Frankly Londoners are fed up of everyone else having their hands in our pockets and still whinging.

 

[tbtc]

The "mayoral pollution" is essential when London is asked to fund most of it's own upgrades even if they benefit the wider SE or indeed country. Frankly Londoners are fed up of everyone else having their hands in our pockets and still whinging.

I don't blame Londoners for being annoyed - I'm surprised that so many people on here have a problem with London's Mayor having responsibility for (some of) London's trains - despite the fact that London's population is essentially the same as the population of Scotland plus the population of Wales - how dare Londoners want to take back control... they should be happy to play second fiddle to longer distance services... (removes tongue from cheek)

LO feels like an arbitary split of various lines that have, for one reason of another (Silverlink demise for example), fallen out of favour that would fit this mode too

I agree, but NSE was an arbitrary split of various services (no further than Bedford but all the way to Exeter... a monopoly on many lines but someone decided that Victoria - Gatwick was actually "InterCity")

Similarly, TfW is an arbitrary split of services, TPE is an arbitrary split of services, XC is an arbitrary split of services...

Not sure its about pure nostalgia. Given the direction of Franchises to a Concession Model, there is benefit to one Branding (like Scotrail or TFW) for certain areas. Just "Operated By:" stickers on the doors

Could it lead to better Value for money? Streamlined Ticketing?

That may well be what happens nationally - we seem to be moving to a world of "bland white/grey units but with colourful doors and a splash of colour at the front/rear of the train" in most of England/ Wales, we are moving to a world of bland branding that is just a vague geographical description* plus "trains" / "railway" at the end of the name - no more First/ Stagecoach etc in the branding - but this doesn't need NSE to happen (just like we don't need NSE to justify different railcards)

(* - apart from "Avanti", but I don't think there'd be a short name for that franchise - it's not really "West Coast" (just a brief section near Carnforth) - if you mention Manchester in the name then you'll upset the Scousers - if you don't mention Wales in the name then you'll get an angry letter from a Mrs Trellis - so having an abstract brand is probably the best option)

 

[Bletchleyite]

(* - apart from "Avanti", but I don't think there'd be a short name for that franchise - it's not really "West Coast" (just a brief section near Carnforth) - if you mention Manchester in the name then you'll upset the Scousers - if you don't mention Wales in the name then you'll get an angry letter from a Mrs Trellis - so having an abstract brand is probably the best option)

West Coast is what it's been known as for years even though you're correct in saying it doesn't spend much time actually on the coast. That branding would work fine, and indeed was what BR called the shadow franchise.

 

[Djgr]

West Coast is what it's been known as for years even though you're correct in saying it doesn't spend much time actually on the coast. That branding would work fine, and indeed was what BR called the shadow franchise.

Not so much coast on the East Coast either, at least until Northumberland!

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Personally, I think NSE branding would work on most modern trains-it's a fairly simple livery that moulds to the shape of the train well. I don't think it ever looked good on Networkers, but it looked the absoloute business on the class 159s and Turbo units. It could work on 377s and the new Abelio stock you might be able to get away with it. NSE probably would have changed their branding anyway come 1996 had it survived. I think there was a thread I read on here once that mentioned BR were planning a new IC livery for 1996 had privatisation not happened. I think liveries nowadays tend to have a solid colour rather than stripes or patches, which was a very 80s/90s style of design.

For the Overground and Crossrail, I'd just envision the NSE logo slapped on the cab end and maybe on the side.