Should Northern have ordered more 195s to replace 150/156s?

[DannyMich2018]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #7 originally in this thread.

Yes. They’ll pretty much be staying till the very death.

I still think it was silly not to replace the Class 150/156 units with more 195s particularly as they are only a few years younger than the pacers and 30+ years old already. Even 158s are well over 25 years old now.

 

[Nymanic]

I still think it was silly not to replace the Class 150/156 units with more 195s particularly as they are only a few years younger than the pacers and 30+ years old already. Even 158s are well over 25 years old now.

I doubt Arriva's bid team would want to disagree, but money is the prevailing factor. The costs sadly can't be justified, and any attempt to do so might have seen their franchise bid thrown out, in favour of something even cheaper...

 

[ed1971]

I still think it was silly not to replace the Class 150/156 units with more 195s particularly as they are only a few years younger than the pacers and 30+ years old already. Even 158s are well over 25 years old now.

I certainly agree about the 150s. The 150/1s were built in 1985-6, so are a year or two older than the 144s and later 142s that they are replacing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I certainly agree about the 150s. The 150/1s were built in 1985-6, so are a year or two older than the 144s and later 142s that they are replacing.

There may well be further orders later, the urgent thing was to get rid of Pacers. 150s may not be nice but they are safe and reliable.

I would however hope that any new order is for bi-modes rather than straight DMUs.

 

[ed1971]

There may well be further orders later, the urgent thing was to get rid of Pacers. 150s may not be nice but they are safe and reliable.

I would however hope that any new order is for bi-modes rather than straight DMUs.

Bi-modes would be a sensible way forward and are future proof in view of impending electrification schemes. In fact, a fleet of new bi-modes could have been built in less time than it has taken to get the 769s into service, which is still to be achieved.

 

[Bornin1980s]

The problem with the pacers is not their age. Trains last much longer than cars. The problem is that they were never adequate, even when new. I do agree that new trains should be bi-modes, or at least have electric transmission. That said, we urgently need many more diesels, so I would support a follow on order for 195s.

 

[ed1971]

The problem with the pacers is not their age. Trains last much longer than cars. The problem is that they were never adequate, even when new. I do agree that new trains should be bi-modes, or at least have electric transmission. That said, we urgently need many more diesels, so I would support a follow on order for 195s.

It depends on what routes Pacers are used on. On quieter less patronised shorter routes they were more than adequate, as evidenced by the Class 139 Parry People Mover (which is really a Micro Pacer). The problem is that they tend to creep onto longer routes such as Leeds to Chester.
At 32 to 34 years of age, the Pacers have lasted just as long or even longer than many Classes of First Generation DMUs. The Class 123s for example only saw 21 years of service.

 

[krus_aragon]

There's also a related thread (that posed the question in a future tense):
Northern Class 150s should be replaced by a further order of 195s

 

[hwl]

Given Northern subsidy levels replacing any sprinters with 195 was a non starter at the bid time as the then SoS already had to bend a few rules to get the pacers replaced. The improvement duerting this franchise will have to make and impact and starting helping to turn the finances round.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Yes, Northern needs bimodes. Windermere, Barrow, via Bentham services, via Settle too. Others in the NW. Morpeth to Metro, around Leeds, lots through Manchester.

 

[js1000]

The good:
- Teething problems aside, the response to the new trains has been great for Northern. Even today, passengers waiting for the train to Manchester Vic at Rochdale were curious and were allowed a quick sneek peek by the driver. A few people on the platform were talking about them today at Piccadilly but saying they've 'caught sight' of them but have not yet been on one.
- The new rolling stock should increase passenger numbers by attracting new passengers previously put off by Leyland bus on wheels as well as enabling Northern to compete with TOCs on a more level-footing.
- The new franchise in 2025 is an ideal time to propose new rolling stock and commencing retirement of most of the 150s by the end of 2030. 2022 would be too early and 2030 would be too late. The day will come but the 150s have probably got another 5 years left in them yet.

The bad:
- The 150/156s are really started to look life-expired and the removal of the Pacers will mean the 150s will inherit the 'ugly step-sister' role. Even Northern have conceded this that the image problem of the Pacers will just shift to the 150s.
- The subsidy is high but as mentioned above the new rolling stock is a long-term investment to attract new passengers and reduce this subsidy.
- I concur with others, the biggest problem is that Northern really need some bi-modes - not more 195s. They are operating more longer distance routes which straddle lines with and without wires. Even the diesel 195s are operating under wires from Manchester Airport to Preston on the Barrow route which is most of its route.
But these are more expensive to buy.
- Although it would be nice I'm not convinced the 769s aren't the answer long-term as a bi-mode offering. The idea of a retro-fitted EMU with diesel engines strapped on it for potentially 18+ hours a day is fanciful at best when the problems encountered during testing do not appear to be teething problems due to the delays that have occurred. Even then the 319s have well documented problems with door failing to open so these units are far from perfect.